No Utility/Raid CD, Hurts 10man position?

[Not Againnn]

snip for the good part...

Seriously.. people who think mages are useless.. really need to stop playing their mage.. because it's obviously not the right class for you.

THANK YOU. I shined in my 10 man easily doing 30k-50k more dps than everybody else, never dying, and generally just being a badass. its what the games about.

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I'm a 541 fire mage in a 9/13 10 man guild. I'm lucky to be in this guild that gets through content. We utilize the classes we have to get through mechanics. I believe that I am welcomed because most of the time I survive and do dps. While I'm not the best fire mage out there, I do ok, and I'm alive. Alive dps = good dps.
All of us are generally close together on fights on dps (rogue, hunter, warlock, boom, me).

I'm not fond of fire. I do not care for doing "ok", doing "really well" and doing "meh" depending on my rng. I do "ok". That's different from previous tiers.

I'm not flailing my hands crying the world is coming to an end. However, I am watching twitter feeds, forums posts, and PTR notes and wondering if my "fun" as a progressive mage raider is done. I just don't want another teir of doing "ok" and doing "meh". That's not fun, and that's my decision to make.

mages have been top 5 of pretty much every tier except maybe sunwell.

you have nothing to worry about. we have 3 specs that do dps. one of them is bound to work an be super viable no matter when unless they completely destroy the class which is unlikely.

[Kiry]

you have nothing to worry about. we have 3 specs that do dps. one of them is bound to work an be super viable no matter when unless they completely destroy the class which is unlikely.

Thank you, but I will remain concerned regardless of what you have stated. The continued "mages are fine" from devs isnt' inspiring considering what mages have been saying all tier. Give us QoL, fix our Invo bug, give us some movement or reduce the movement penalty, etc. Saying "one" the specs should be ok isn't ok with me. Most dps classes have specs that are within reasonable range of each other. Ours is not, particularly in the face of current raid dynamics.

[Not Againnn]

Thank you, but I will remain concerned regardless of what you have stated. The continued "mages are fine" from devs isnt' inspiring considering what mages have been saying all tier. Give us QoL, fix our Invo bug, give us some movement or reduce the movement penalty, etc. Saying "one" the specs should be ok isn't ok with me. Most dps classes have specs that are within reasonable range of each other. Ours is not, particularly in the face of current raid dynamics.

most classes have 1-2 dps specs. mages have 3. the devs trying to balance all three to be within 3-5% is going to be very hard considering our level 90 talent and bombs. be concerned if you want, but its for nothing. just go with the flow and be flexible and willing to respec/adjust gems/reforge/whatever with the changes. its how mages have and always will be. no matter what, there is a setup among the various specs/talents/glyphs that will provide optimal dps.

always. we just have so many variables.

[Pyromelter]

@visor, I don't think any class can soak more high damage abilities in a short period than mages, three high damage soaks in 1.5 minutes, 1 every 45 seconds, that's huge. And as for lei shen with no warlocks, we had nights where two locks wouldn't show up and we got by just fine.

Rogues, death knights, paladins, hunters, warlocks, druids, they all say hello (and i'm referring to the dps specs of the hybrids, not their tank specs).

The other classes can all soak at least one high damage ability per minute.

My preference would be frankly to remove Hand of Protection, remove all raid wide damage reducing cooldowns, and make classes more like mages, where personal skill using survival cooldowns is more important than standing in your rogue buddy's cloud of 20% less damage.

[Not Againnn]

Rogues, death knights, paladins, hunters, warlocks, druids, they all say hello (and i'm referring to the dps specs of the hybrids, not their tank specs).

The other classes can all soak at least one high damage ability per minute.

My preference would be frankly to remove Hand of Protection, remove all raid wide damage reducing cooldowns, and make classes more like mages, where personal skill using survival cooldowns is more important than standing in your rogue buddy's cloud of 20% less damage.

all those other classes sacrifice dps for those cooldowns where as mages have them built in.

i agree with your preference. i wish i had to rely on myself to stay alive more often. raid wide cooldowns should be used for only emergencies... now they are just excuses to bench people lol

[Henzington]

Just let me say first I haven't done 10m since wrath but based on that experience and all of my raiding overall I have no issue with mages as their damage and self survival is just awesome. The issue here is more do they bring something to the raid like many other class do. Just as example locks bring healthstones and portal as well as personal survival cds. The same goes for rogues, all specs of pallys, druids with tranq even as dps, or priest/shaman as mana batteries.

The only class in a similar place in terms of raid cds is warrior which only brings rally cry perhaps the worst raid cd given the recent buff to druid tranq.

[Pyromelter]

all those other classes sacrifice dps for those cooldowns where as mages have them built in.

i agree with your preference. i wish i had to rely on myself to stay alive more often. raid wide cooldowns should be used for only emergencies... now they are just excuses to bench people lol

Mages also sacrifice dps for their their soaking abilities, where some of those other classes do not (rogues, dk's come to mind).

(Agreed with your second paragraph of course though)

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The only class in a similar place in terms of raid cds is warrior which only brings rally cry perhaps the worst raid cd given the recent buff to druid tranq.

Death Knights have a raid CD... but it's so miserably underpowered it might as well be like trying to fight a forest fire with a half-used tissue. I believe hunters also lack a similar raid CD (but hunter is like my 10th alt so I don't know enough to know whether they have one or not).

[Henzington]

Hunter can bring any buff so you can forgive their lack of a raid cd and yes death knight anti magic shell is rather meh at the moment.

[boogie]

I play a hunter, and after reading this thread, I would just like to say the following.

Are you kidding?

I'll trade my dps, raid utility and defensive cooldowns for yours any day. You keep comparing to Warlocks, that's not balance though. Warlocks have an insane raid toolkit and survivability. You don't need to be buffed, they need to be nerfed. Would you be willing to trade 10-20% of your DPS for something another class brings, barring Warlocks?

[Not Againnn]

I play a hunter, and after reading this thread, I would just like to say the following.

Are you kidding?

I'll trade my dps, raid utility and defensive cooldowns for yours any day. You keep comparing to Warlocks, that's not balance though. Warlocks have an insane raid toolkit and survivability. You don't need to be buffed, they need to be nerfed. Would you be willing to trade 10-20% of your DPS for something another class brings, barring Warlocks?

im calling july the eighth boogie day in honor of this hunter.

this is what i am talking about.

we have the dps to keep our spot because we have the toolkit to make us dps powerhouse.

[Visor]

so we are back to start. Mages do not provide any raid utility. Very hard decision for RL. We have 2 ppl with same skills and average dps. But one provide portals, healthstones and combat res but second one provide... NOTHING. Simple mathematics. Ofc pro mages will get a spot. Like any other class. But we are talking about equal opportunities. Isnt it? And here mages a weakest link. They are haven't any utility. Havent heal offspec and can't even combat res. Mage can have a spot only when RL fill this positions.

[spaace]

Not really the start... you have to think of raid comp.

You bring the DPS and you bring the utility. If you stack a raid with nothing but battle rez, and stacking buffs.. whats the point? Just raid with 2 pally tanks, 2 disc priests and 6 hunters if thats the case.

The only thing I'm really hate is that mages are just too dependable on every other class.. All we give is 10% sp/5% crit.. We NEED a way to atleast lay down curse of elements or something... even if pyromaniac is re-worked or something..

[Not Againnn]

What we need is something that sets us apart from everybody else. Not a copy or a variation of "the raid takes x% less damage". No passive group wide buff. Anything else utility wise and we become over the top in PVP. A balanced solution would have to have as little effect on our dps or toolkit as possible.

I think thats the wall Blizz is running into

[Henzington]

Asking for a unique buff is very much against the way the game has been going since the announcement of shared 10 and 25 man lock out after wrath. If anything I would expect more changes like giving 10% spell power/stam to locks.

[Frost1129]

If the best guilds in the world are clearing content with multiple mages, odds are there is a reason (It's because we're fucking awesome).

Next patch mages are probably going to have the best survivability out of the DPS classes. Already you can rotate G.invis and TS to fight back against almost every big damage source. TS will get a damage reduction, making it ridiculously strong. We be fine. There is more to successful raiding than raid utility - like making sure you're playing well.

[Kiry]

I'm not sure about that yet. (Certain) Healers are being giving a ton of tools for their tool box to mitigate or heal raid damage. I'm curious if that means dps will have their hands full.

If so, with what? Adds? Mechanics?

This could create more strain on the 10 mans. But...too soon to tell likely.

[Pua]

What we need is something that sets us apart from everybody else. Not a copy or a variation of "the raid takes x% less damage". No passive group wide buff. Anything else utility wise and we become over the top in PVP. A balanced solution would have to have as little effect on our dps or toolkit as possible.

I think thats the wall Blizz is running into

Wait, what?

You think "balance" is a unique buff that only mages provide (on top of their amazing damage, of course)? Erm, no. Get a grip of yourself. Mages are already set apart from their raid mates by an abundance of utility spells and abilities that only they can do, and we start to get tears because you're not unique in more ways than you already are?

I thought the sensible mages had chased people like you away.

Like I said already - go away and play a Shadow priest, Elemental shaman or hunter in endgame. When you've done that, I dare you to come back here and cry that mages need help.

Jesus.

[mrgreenthump]

Wait, what?

You think "balance" is a unique buff that only mages provide (on top of their amazing damage, of course)? Erm, no. Get a grip of yourself. Mages are already set apart from their raid mates by an abundance of utility spells and abilities that only they can do, and we start to get tears because you're not unique in more ways than you already are?

I thought the sensible mages had chased people like you away.

Like I said already - go away and play a Shadow priest, Elemental shaman or hunter in endgame. When you've done that, I dare you to come back here and cry that mages need help.

Jesus.

Yeh, as I have said time and time again mages atm ain't looking bad for 5.4, We were suffering in 5.2, but mainly it werent cause of utility, having no utility aside from horridon decursing didn't help though.

But blizzard seems to want mages to use more decursing(buff the the damage increase), and we still have spellsteal to use, though I really think they should maybe decrease the mana cost on NPC targets with spellsteal. And maybe do the decursing threatment(damage buff glyph), as nowdays if you spellsteal a bossbuff it's an offensive dispell, rather than spellSTEAL..

[Kudos]

As far as I remember, after 3 days of 100% ignite combustion glory, I was robbed 8% of my crit and gutted like a cornish game hen..

gutted like a cornish game hen..

I know I'm offtopic, but I love TF2. Spy is my favourite class.

[Deleted]

Like I said already - go away and play a Shadow priest, Elemental shaman or hunter in endgame. When you've done that, I dare you to come back here and cry that mages need help.

Exactly! I feel sorry for the situation the hunter and the shadow priest in my raid is in. We have a hunter for tortos and to stop the disenchanting of mail agi gear on the other bosses.

I love my self cooldowns. I can survive more stuff than most other classes. I dont want a raid CD and stand there 10 sek. channeling a heal spell. It was never our job to do this and i hope it will never be.