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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by Requital View Post
    I'm trying really hard to determine if WW is going to be worth sticking with going into 5.4 progression so anything I can help you collect data on I'll be more than happy to my ilevel is higher than what your looking for but I have plenty gear to test w/e levels you need.
    This is where I am. Some people say it's "too early to jump ship" on the class.... but if my goal is to be viable for heroic raiding, I'd rather have a geared and prepared class than hoping, really hoping, that WW is going to be viable just to find out, oops, they are worthless in 10 man. Shoulda brought my Shaman or Rogue.... /sigh

  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltycracker View Post
    GC wasnt kidding.

    Patch notes got updated today:

    TEB is 6% per stack up for 5%
    3Chi/TEB
    This is good. Personally, I will be satisfied with a tad more dps and a raid cd. I really enjoy the monk class.

    Come on raid CD!
    Normal is the name for the mental disorder present in the majority of humanity.
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  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by xinjun View Post
    This is good. Personally, I will be satisfied with a tad more dps and a raid cd. I really enjoy the monk class.

    Come on raid CD!
    TBH I'll be happy if our dps comes out the same or higher and idc about a raid CD. I do retarded dps in our raids and not having to worry about a defensive raid CD makes it more enjoyable. Then again I raid 25m so there's less need for the CD. (I won't complain about a skull banner/stormlash type CD though.)

  4. #244
    The Lightbringer Requital's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alysmera View Post
    They're barely tuning the numbers right now. A tad early to jump ship.
    There is a difference between jumping ship over " crying " and jumping ship over " viable raid spot ". When you are in a top 20 guild there is no such thing as too early only waiting too long.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Relix View Post
    This is where I am. Some people say it's "too early to jump ship" on the class.... but if my goal is to be viable for heroic raiding, I'd rather have a geared and prepared class than hoping, really hoping, that WW is going to be viable just to find out, oops, they are worthless in 10 man. Shoulda brought my Shaman or Rogue.... /sigh
    Basically yes there is no such thing as too early and last tier we were only viable because of the RoR, Could a guild carry a WW sure but anytime an encounter strategy came into what raid CD's do we have I found myself sitting because no amount of damage from one person can make up for a raid CD.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille View Post
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  5. #245
    when i heard that Chi Brew would now also interact with our class brews, i was crossing my fingers that it was going to make using heroism at the start of a fight usable for us. Personally, i think something needs to be done about our crazy ramp-up time - i know it exists with other classes too, but right now, even with the change to our mastery, TEB is still our cooldown for burn-phase dps, and is not available at the start of a fight. One could argue that Xuen is, however, but AFAIK, he snapshots our current stats and changes, and he is affected by the TEB buff.

    I'm glad they are actually doing something with our spec though, rather than putting it to one side over the other two. Not to mention i wouldn't've liked to be a resto-sham up until recently, they were ignored for ages XD

    Llucielle - Silvermoon EU

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by LukeMortora View Post
    when i heard that Chi Brew would now also interact with our class brews, i was crossing my fingers that it was going to make using heroism at the start of a fight usable for us. Personally, i think something needs to be done about our crazy ramp-up time - i know it exists with other classes too, but right now, even with the change to our mastery, TEB is still our cooldown for burn-phase dps, and is not available at the start of a fight. One could argue that Xuen is, however, but AFAIK, he snapshots our current stats and changes, and he is affected by the TEB buff.

    I'm glad they are actually doing something with our spec though, rather than putting it to one side over the other two. Not to mention i wouldn't've liked to be a resto-sham up until recently, they were ignored for ages XD
    Yeah hopefully they buff Chi Brew to give a few more stacks, now that we will be balanced around 15 stacks for max burst. It should give at least 5, and should have a chance to proc the new mastery, giving us 10 if we're lucky.

  7. #247
    Stood in the Fire Rickarus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LukeMortora View Post
    when i heard that Chi Brew would now also interact with our class brews, i was crossing my fingers that it was going to make using heroism at the start of a fight usable for us. Personally, i think something needs to be done about our crazy ramp-up time - i know it exists with other classes too, but right now, even with the change to our mastery, TEB is still our cooldown for burn-phase dps, and is not available at the start of a fight. One could argue that Xuen is, however, but AFAIK, he snapshots our current stats and changes, and he is affected by the TEB buff.

    I'm glad they are actually doing something with our spec though, rather than putting it to one side over the other two. Not to mention i wouldn't've liked to be a resto-sham up until recently, they were ignored for ages XD
    Unless it has been changed recently, and I missed it, Xuen does not benefit from TeB, but his stats do, if I'm not mistaken, change dynamically with yours.

    As for the Chi Brew thing, I have a feeling that they may change it (as they did recently for Brewmaster) for Windwalker fairly soon. Whether it will be enough to make it worth choosing over the other options, I'm not sure, and I'd say it's unlikely that it would be enough to make full power TeB within hero/lust's duration happen, but it may be enough to make say, a 10 stack possible, possibly more. Say they change it to giving 5 stacks of TeB from chi brew, and you pre stack your chi with expel harm before the fight; if you get lucky with your mastery procs, the first 4-5 seconds (not sure if chi brew is off the gcd or not) you could be up to 9 stacks, giving you a decent amount of time to get a few more stacks to pop for the last 15 seconds of hero/lust.

  8. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by Rickarus View Post
    Unless it has been changed recently, and I missed it, Xuen does not benefit from TeB, but his stats do, if I'm not mistaken, change dynamically with yours.

    As for the Chi Brew thing, I have a feeling that they may change it (as they did recently for Brewmaster) for Windwalker fairly soon. Whether it will be enough to make it worth choosing over the other options, I'm not sure, and I'd say it's unlikely that it would be enough to make full power TeB within hero/lust's duration happen, but it may be enough to make say, a 10 stack possible, possibly more. Say they change it to giving 5 stacks of TeB from chi brew, and you pre stack your chi with expel harm before the fight; if you get lucky with your mastery procs, the first 4-5 seconds (not sure if chi brew is off the gcd or not) you could be up to 9 stacks, giving you a decent amount of time to get a few more stacks to pop for the last 15 seconds of hero/lust.
    I must be out of the loop. Last time i checked, Xuen was snapshotting the % damage increase from TEB, but that was in tier 14, and i assumed it hadn't changed since. On heroism pulls my standard ramp up is this:

    prepot
    hope for blades of rentaki proc
    hope for shado pan trinket proc
    build up as much TEB as possible using standard rotation
    -
    1 sec remaining on hero/pot/either trinket - pop Xuen for max stat bump snapshot.

    Usually this would result in the TEB effect running over heroism's expiry, which may sound like a loss at first, but i'm not overly convinced using a lower stack with 15sec remaining would be worth it unless Xuen does NOT benefit from TEB. I may have to reconsider my opening DPS sequence.

    Llucielle - Silvermoon EU

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by Requital View Post
    There is a difference between jumping ship over " crying " and jumping ship over " viable raid spot ". When you are in a top 20 guild there is no such thing as too early only waiting too long.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Basically yes there is no such thing as too early and last tier we were only viable because of the RoR, Could a guild carry a WW sure but anytime an encounter strategy came into what raid CD's do we have I found myself sitting because no amount of damage from one person can make up for a raid CD.
    This hurts us doubly if your guild happens to have a robust roster with plenty of other players with viable classes waiting for a permanent raid spot. Suddenly announcing that your spec isn't viable and that you want to class switch is going to be met with pulling in one of the geared, ready benchers instead of helping you gear an alt. I've been here since the first pull of normal Jin'rohk, and I'm pretty sure its the absence of a Brewmaster that keeps me from being sat for another rogue or warrior at this point on heroic Lei Shen (I run out with the tank and taunt for the Provoke speed, which murders my dps, oi). Even then, once one of our tanks finishes gearing his Brewmaster, I can pretty much say bye bye to both my spot on H-Lei Shen and Ra-Den kills.

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkHatred View Post
    ...but with the new mastery we'll be able to generate the stacks required much faster, and more importantly not have to wait around for a proc from a trinket in order to utilize it.

    Also, this allows monks in PVP to generate stacks faster, and get a greater benefit from consuming tigereye before getting max stacks, which should help with pressure damage in arena's.
    Uh... I beg your pardon? 'Generate stacks required much faster'? I'm sorry, but... WHAT!? Where in the PTR patch notes did you see anything remotely resembling 'generating stacks faster'?

    Going for 'number of stacks' alone, we'll have to spend 50% more time building up stacks, since, to get maximum effect from TigerEye Brew, we need 15 stacks, up from 10. 15! That's half as many more stacks than we need now! Let's assume we get a TEB stack every 6 seconds. That means that the time needed to get maximum stacks for a TEB use went from 60 to 90 seconds.

    And now, on top of that, going for 'generation of stacks', you get one stack per 4 chi, up from 3. So that means if you could get a stack every 6 seconds, on average, now you'll get one stack every 8 seconds. That means, time needed to get max stacks for a TEB use went from 60 seconds, to 120 seconds. Doubled the time needed to get it.

    "Oh but our mastery will help us get stacks faster," you say. I call bull to that because unless someone posts a screenie from PTR showing how much our new mastery will work, I believe we can assume it's gonna be a small percentage, like baseline 5% or so 10% tops, like our current Tier 15 4-set bonus, scaling probably poorly with mastery, making Monks switch from Mastery builds to Haste builds, probably.

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  11. #251
    The Lightbringer Requital's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schaden View Post
    This hurts us doubly if your guild happens to have a robust roster with plenty of other players with viable classes waiting for a permanent raid spot. Suddenly announcing that your spec isn't viable and that you want to class switch is going to be met with pulling in one of the geared, ready benchers instead of helping you gear an alt. I've been here since the first pull of normal Jin'rohk, and I'm pretty sure its the absence of a Brewmaster that keeps me from being sat for another rogue or warrior at this point on heroic Lei Shen (I run out with the tank and taunt for the Provoke speed, which murders my dps, oi). Even then, once one of our tanks finishes gearing his Brewmaster, I can pretty much say bye bye to both my spot on H-Lei Shen and Ra-Den kills.
    I've been in the guild since DS and before this guild I have been in a number of top guild. I know without a doubt when my class isn't performing up to the raid standards and not just in DPS but everything. In the current rendition of WW on the PTR I'm 70k dps behind on a test dummy as to where I am on live. That is a pretty big chunk and ya I know they haven't been tuned yet I get it.

    I've been playing this game since alpha " we haven't finished tuning " means nothing I've seen classes fly through PTR and get tuned and still turn out like shit so it just doesn't mean anything.
    Last edited by Requital; 2013-07-13 at 06:16 PM.
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  12. #252
    Stood in the Fire Rickarus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LukeMortora View Post
    I must be out of the loop. Last time i checked, Xuen was snapshotting the % damage increase from TEB, but that was in tier 14, and i assumed it hadn't changed since. On heroism pulls my standard ramp up is this:

    prepot
    hope for blades of rentaki proc
    hope for shado pan trinket proc
    build up as much TEB as possible using standard rotation
    -
    1 sec remaining on hero/pot/either trinket - pop Xuen for max stat bump snapshot.

    Usually this would result in the TEB effect running over heroism's expiry, which may sound like a loss at first, but i'm not overly convinced using a lower stack with 15sec remaining would be worth it unless Xuen does NOT benefit from TEB. I may have to reconsider my opening DPS sequence.
    I quickly read over the EJ Windwalker post and Xuen does NOT benefit from TeB, but does from any stat increasing effects. Not 100% whether it is snapshot or dynamic yet though.

  13. #253
    @Requital

    Yea, it's tragic our raid CD isn't as powerful as others, but I don't think it's as binary as you say. The only fight this tier that WW's really suffer (and all melee really) is Ra-Den. Horridon was pretty crappy at the beginning of the tier because we were hadn't hit our scaling stride yet. Time will tell, and go ahead and hedge your raid spot if you feel it's required. I think by this point either you have a raid spot or you don't, and it's based on your personal ability and not your class.


    Personally, I think our personal survivability beats every other class and is where we really shine. I don't think it really benefits us to add another raid CD to an already bloated arms race. The TEB healing thing makes me scratch my head because I only see it working well with Chi Burst, but all monks could end up getting something, but that something could synergize well with TEB. SEF came about halfway into the PTR iteration cycle, so time will tell.

  14. #254
    The Lightbringer Requital's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saltycracker View Post
    @Requital

    Yea, it's tragic our raid CD isn't as powerful as others, but I don't think it's as binary as you say. The only fight this tier that WW's really suffer (and all melee really) is Ra-Den. Horridon was pretty crappy at the beginning of the tier because we were hadn't hit our scaling stride yet. Time will tell, and go ahead and hedge your raid spot if you feel it's required. I think by this point either you have a raid spot or you don't, and it's based on your personal ability and not your class.


    Personally, I think our personal survivability beats every other class and is where we really shine. I don't think it really benefits us to add another raid CD to an already bloated arms race. The TEB healing thing makes me scratch my head because I only see it working well with Chi Burst, but all monks could end up getting something, but that something could synergize well with TEB. SEF came about halfway into the PTR iteration cycle, so time will tell.
    Isn't as powerful as others? We don't have a Raid CD to compare to others, We have a shitty group CD that forces us to quit attacking. That is not a Raid CD and it absolutely is as binary as I say it is because it is to my guild and that is all that matters. It doesn't matter what anyone thinks about it the only place it matters is to the players guild. Of course I'm talking about 5.4 not 5.3 this tier is over for me I'm already gearing my Alts to be prepared for 2 raids next tier.

    Personal survivability Yes and No, I can easily survive as well on my Pally or Shaman as my Monk the only place my Monk tops out other classes is Lei Shen because I can soak 2 bolts where most people can't or I can soak two statics where most people can't.

    The strong point of the class IMO is mobility that is where we excel over every other class in the game.
    Last edited by Requital; 2013-07-13 at 06:25 PM.
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  15. #255
    Stood in the Fire Rickarus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Requital View Post
    I've been in the guild since DS and before this guild I have been in a number of top guild. I know without a doubt when my class isn't performing up to the raid standards and not just in DPS but everything. In the current rendition of WW on the PTR I'm 70k dps behind on a test dummy as to where I am on live. That is a pretty big chunk and ya I know they haven't been tuned yet I get it.

    I've been playing this game since alpha " we haven't finished tuning " means nothing I've seen classes fly through PTR and get tuned and still turn out like shit so it just doesn't mean anything.
    On that dummy dps test, were you gemmed and reforged the same, or did you change everything? Were you still wearing RoRO? Did you test live and PTR with friends giving you raid buffs?

    I could go on, but suffice it to say that dummy dps doesn't mean jack, especially if you're testing one at (I assume) best case scenario, and the other at anything other than best case scenario.

    I also seem to remember people complaining about Windwalker being "SO LOW DPS" at the beginning of ToT, because it didn't do well in LAST TIER'S GEAR. We won't know until all the gear is released, and all the numbers are set, and people actually have a chance to try them against the actual bosses of the tier in the tier's gear, whether Windwalker is good, or average, or garbage, or whatever.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Requital View Post
    Isn't as powerful as others? We don't have a Raid CD to compare to others, We have a shitty group CD that forces us to quit attacking. That is not a Raid CD and it absolutely is as binary as I say it is because it is to my guild and that is all that matters. It doesn't matter what anyone thinks about it the only place it matters is to the players guild. Of course I'm talking about 5.4 not 5.3 this tier is over for me I'm already gearing my Alts to be prepared for 2 raids next tier.

    Personal survivability Yes and No, I can easily survive as well on my Pally or Shaman as my Monk the only place my Monk tops out other classes is Lei Shen because I can soak 2 bolts where most people can't or I can soak two statics where most people can't.

    The strong point of the class IMO is mobility that is where we excel over every other class in the game.
    Windwalker easily has the best survivability of all the melee dps. We have mobility (which, if glyphed, gives threat dump, if needed), an obscene amount of defensive cooldowns for both physical and magical damage. The shear amount of damage a Windwalker can negate from himself saves the healers not only mana, but allows them to put more focus on the people who simply don't have those abilities. Sure, a Pally or a Shaman can heal themselves quite a bit more effectively than a WW can, but a WW's survivability and self healing do not take away from our ability to do damage, and in fact, in a few cases, increases it.

  16. #256
    The Lightbringer Requital's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Uh... I beg your pardon? 'Generate stacks required much faster'? I'm sorry, but... WHAT!? Where in the PTR patch notes did you see anything remotely resembling 'generating stacks faster'?

    Going for 'number of stacks' alone, we'll have to spend 50% more time building up stacks, since, to get maximum effect from TigerEye Brew, we need 15 stacks, up from 10. 15! That's half as many more stacks than we need now! Let's assume we get a TEB stack every 6 seconds. That means that the time needed to get maximum stacks for a TEB use went from 60 to 90 seconds.

    And now, on top of that, going for 'generation of stacks', you get one stack per 4 chi, up from 3. So that means if you could get a stack every 6 seconds, on average, now you'll get one stack every 8 seconds. That means, time needed to get max stacks for a TEB use went from 60 seconds, to 120 seconds. Doubled the time needed to get it.

    "Oh but our mastery will help us get stacks faster," you say. I call bull to that because unless someone posts a screenie from PTR showing how much our new mastery will work, I believe we can assume it's gonna be a small percentage, like baseline 5% or so 10% tops, like our current Tier 15 4-set bonus, scaling probably poorly with mastery, making Monks switch from Mastery builds to Haste builds, probably.
    Since I had some time to burn today and this weekend I decided to try and line my stats up fairly close on PTR and Live between Haste levels.

    Live Stats

    • Hit: 2552
    • Expertise: 2556
    • Mastery: 9588
    • Haste: 9584
    • Crit: 9584

    TeB Stack Generation time for Minimum use.

    10 Stacks = 28 seconds

    PTR Stats - Haste = Live > Crit > Mastery

    • Hit: 2567
    • Expertise: 2553
    • Mastery: 4937
    • Haste: 9618
    • Crit: 11953

    15 Stacks = 52 seconds

    PTR Stats - Haste = Live > Mastery > Crit

    • Hit: 2592
    • Expertise: 2553
    • Mastery: 9641
    • Haste: 9680
    • Crit: 7162

    15 Stacks = 40 seconds

    Gear is the same between live and PTR other than the Rune since it's most likely no longer going to be as good I used Juju and Renatakis on PTR. Anyway you look at it it's going to take additional time to stack up to 15 at the current build rate.
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  17. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by Rickarus View Post



    Windwalker easily has the best survivability of all the melee dps.

  18. #258
    The Lightbringer Requital's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rickarus View Post
    On that dummy dps test, were you gemmed and reforged the same, or did you change everything? Were you still wearing RoRO? Did you test live and PTR with friends giving you raid buffs?

    I could go on, but suffice it to say that dummy dps doesn't mean jack, especially if you're testing one at (I assume) best case scenario, and the other at anything other than best case scenario.
    Pretend you're talking to someone with a brain. Of course I optimized for PTR and new trinkets why would I leave it all the same and then complain about it?

    I also seem to remember people complaining about Windwalker being "SO LOW DPS" at the beginning of ToT, because it didn't do well in LAST TIER'S GEAR. We won't know until all the gear is released, and all the numbers are set, and people actually have a chance to try them against the actual bosses of the tier in the tier's gear, whether Windwalker is good, or average, or garbage, or whatever.
    WW didn't scale good until you got a RoR no matter how you look at it.

    Windwalker easily has the best survivability of all the melee dps. We have mobility (which, if glyphed, gives threat dump, if needed), an obscene amount of defensive cooldowns for both physical and magical damage. The shear amount of damage a Windwalker can negate from himself saves the healers not only mana, but allows them to put more focus on the people who simply don't have those abilities. Sure, a Pally or a Shaman can heal themselves quite a bit more effectively than a WW can, but a WW's survivability and self healing do not take away from our ability to do damage, and in fact, in a few cases, increases it.
    Name one time you could use Zen Med while still attacking and not losing dps? You can't, Yes we have Touch of Karma and yes we have Diffuse Magic but that is all we have unless you took Dampen Harm instead.

    If you think for a second a Raid healer says " That is a Monk I don't need to watch him as much " and just heals like that it's pretty silly, Most raid healers heal based on incoming damage and raid frames not on you being a Monk they have no idea when you are randomly going to use a defensive CD. That is why personal survivability has nothing to do with Raid survivability and it never will.

    During Shock on DA I take less damage when the RL calls to use personals because we are out of a raid CD's how is that beneficial to the rest of the raid? It's not it's beneficial to me and me only sure the healer won't have to heal me directly but that means nothing because Chain Heal and all the other AE heals which are used for large amounts of incoming damage isn't that smart.

    However to get back to the topic of the Mastery which is the only thing that we need to worry about I'll leave it at that and won't reply to off topic threads no matter how much I want. Feel free to start a new thread about why personal cd's are just as good as raid cd's and I'll continue in it.
    Last edited by Requital; 2013-07-13 at 07:52 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille View Post
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  19. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by Gulvan View Post
    You call it whining, I call it valid concerns. They have lost their faith in the dev team with alot of the changes over the current expansion. But there is also alot more thoughtful, and quality discussion about the spec as well as some good TC. I also wanted to let him know about rotund's spreadsheet.
    there is a difference between whining and constructive criticism.

    i think i can link you a majority of the posts in this thread that are the former

  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by jazzyy View Post
    there is a difference between whining and constructive criticism.

    i think i can link you a majority of the posts in this thread that are the former
    All the constructive criticism came before GC recently tweeted that he was happy with every spec's raid CDs because "WWers heal". When blizzard refuses to acknowledge a blatant issue there is nothing constructive you can do except reroll or quit.

    5.2 was supposed to bring WWers up to par with other melee in terms of participation. It failed miserably because blizzard still believes 2% of the healing done in a 10 man guild justifies a raid spot.

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