1. #1

    Do WWs need a RELIABLE ranged root?

    Now I'm not talking about a ranged frost nova - just a RELIABLE version of spinning fire blossom.

    When your gap closers are targetless, it's so easy to exploit such that the other person has moved whilst you were rolling. You can try to roll where they will be instead of where they are, but again if they've got half a brain they can exploit this. This problem is exacerbated if your target either doesn't have a snare on them (and since ours is a melee range snare it becomes a catch 22) or if has a sprint effect on it.

    We need something to lock the target down from range just for a second or two so we can roll accurately at them. There is enough skill involved in roll jumping precisely - we don't need the added hassle of aiming spinning fire blossoms on top of this just to function normally.

    Lag affects spinning fire blossom unfairly compared to other abilities and good luck hitting what you want if something else is in between, which is quite silly really :S

    On top of that, after a stealth nerf for I don't really know what reasons, it consumes chi REGARDLESS of whether it hits a target or not - which is a bit punishing considering how problematic it is and also how important it is for ww mobility as a whole to function.

    I suggest:

    - make it targetable like other abilities/like the glyph AND keep the root effect

    - make it use energy instead of chi - if you're going to force us to manually target people with it, at least make the supply unlimited albeit at decent intervals

    What do you guys think?

  2. #2
    We have one. It's called Paralysis.

  3. #3
    With our mobility using Chi on SFB seems like a waste already, i really don't think we need more uptime since we're pretty much as hard to peel as ferals.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by XangXu View Post
    We have one. It's called Paralysis.
    Well, no. You're not meant to be using your CC to get to your target. This seriously screws with kill opportunities and it's clearly spinning fire blossom that's meant to be used for this purpose not paralysis. It's ok for paralysis to double up as this in clutch circumstances but it shouldn't be the go to method of keeping your target in place whilst you roll at them. It's also only a 20 yd range and breaks on damage, so it's nots particularly good for this either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zergal View Post
    With our mobility using Chi on SFB seems like a waste already, i really don't think we need more uptime since we're pretty much as hard to peel as ferals.
    Again, this is probably against bad players. If the other person is good they will know how to exploit the buggy mechanics underlying monk mobility. Maybe you are thinking about bgs where you see someone who is standing still because they are concentrating on another fight and you can easily roll at them without them moving during your roll. In high level arena you'll find people who know what they are doing and know that monk mechanics are poorly designed consequently exploiting these.

    I ask you, if you feel that any changes would make monk mobility too much, then you need to address mobility properly rather than curbing it via the implementation of poorly designed mechanics.

    Spinning Fire Blossom was fine before the stealth nerf. It felt right to only consume it after hitting the target rather than every time it was used. If it doesn't make sense on some semantic level (i.e. keeping chi despite an ability being used, in some sense), then make it cost energy rather than chi. Its functionality becomes as it ought to be and it "makes sense".

    It's the best solution.

  5. #5
    I think monks have enough tricks to get to their targets, they are freaking flying all over the place.
    Give them a reliable root and they will go bananas on every one.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Zergal View Post
    With our mobility using Chi on SFB seems like a waste already, i really don't think we need more uptime since we're pretty much as hard to peel as ferals.
    quoted for truth

  6. #6
    You're more or less the fastest class in game, and you want a root because you don't think you even need to use that incredible speed to catch every single class that can't get away from you anyway?
    Paralysis if you really think it's too much to roll 2 yards away from them. Pick the talent to get speed after the roll, to make sure you can get to them :P

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Monksrus View Post
    Well, no. You're not meant to be using your CC to get to your target. This seriously screws with kill opportunities and it's clearly spinning fire blossom that's meant to be used for this purpose not paralysis. It's ok for paralysis to double up as this in clutch circumstances but it shouldn't be the go to method of keeping your target in place whilst you roll at them. It's also only a 20 yd range and breaks on damage, so it's nots particularly good for this either.
    Paladins/DKs say hi, when fighting mages/hunters :P
    Lot of classes use CC to get to their target. Really.
    Everyone has so much to say
    They talk talk talk their lives away

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Terridon View Post
    You're more or less the fastest class in game, and you want a root because you don't think you even need to use that incredible speed to catch every single class that can't get away from you anyway?
    Paralysis if you really think it's too much to roll 2 yards away from them. Pick the talent to get speed after the roll, to make sure you can get to them :P

    - - - Updated - - -


    Paladins/DKs say hi, when fighting mages/hunters :P
    Lot of classes use CC to get to their target. Really.
    You mean Paladins and Dks wave down at us from higher up on the rated PvP ladder?

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by wickedbastard View Post
    I think monks have enough tricks to get to their targets, they are freaking flying all over the place.
    Give them a reliable root and they will go bananas on every one.

    - - - Updated - - -



    quoted for truth

    This is extreme overexaggeration. They do not have unlimited mobility - they have more gap closers than most but they are still only 3. They would not go bananas on everyone. They would just be able to get to the target they want to get to more reliably. It would not affect their defensive mobility at all........

    If you want to nerf monk mobility, nerf it. Don't let it be awkward due to poorly designed mechanics.

    It's not meant to be a ranged frost nova.....It's just a more reliable version of spinning fire blossom, i.e. a 1-2 second root to lock the target in place so they don't move by the time you've rolled at them which is poorly designed, or a version of spinning fire blossom that is more forgiving i.e. being energy based rather than chi based.

    And since you specifically said monks have "enough tricks to get to their targets" I would like you to back this up and list them please. My suspicion is you don't actually play a monk but just see what they appear to be doing from the other side. As I play a monk and at a high level I'm pretty sure I could pick apart your reasoning relatively quickly and show you the error of your thinking.


    Again, more hyperbole at the end. Our uptime may be as good as ferals (which it isn't) but that IS NOT the same as saying that we are as hard to peel as ferals. Please do not conflate or confuse the two.

    Quote Originally Posted by Terridon View Post
    You're more or less the fastest class in game, and you want a root because you don't think you even need to use that incredible speed to catch every single class that can't get away from you anyway?
    Paralysis if you really think it's too much to roll 2 yards away from them. Pick the talent to get speed after the roll, to make sure you can get to them :P

    - - - Updated - - -


    Paladins/DKs say hi, when fighting mages/hunters :P
    Lot of classes use CC to get to their target. Really.
    How can you write this kind of thing with sincerity? What do you mean we have incredible speed? We have a couple of more gap closers than other classes - that is what our mobility is based around, not speed.

    I don't want a root - I HAVE A ROOT. I want it to be more reliable. I want to play an MMO not an FPS.........Because my ranged root is not reliable there is a huge chink in mobility that is irrelevant to low level players but which high level players can exploit. Exploitation through buggy mechanics is BAD.

    I don't think you're reading what I'm saying or even understanding it. None of you are responding to my argument. My argument is not about increasing monk mobility - it's about making it more reliable.

    I have played both ret and dk and I know that you MAY, I repeat MAY, use fist of justice or asphyxiate to reach a class that is kiting you in a DUEL under rare circumstances. In arena, you would NEVER use these abilities just to get to your target. As a monk you still have to use paralysis to reach your target in arena which is bad design.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tangra View Post
    You mean Paladins and Dks wave down at us from higher up on the rated PvP ladder?

    This is neither here nor there. Our lack of representation isn't really to do with our mobility. However, it is true that the higher up the pvp ladder you go the more people you will find who know how to exploit monk mobility because of badly designed mechanics

    Everything else aside, do you think its right that spinning fire blossom's effectiveness decreases the more people there are between you and who you want to hit? Imagine if you couldn't get frostbolts off because a pet was between you and your target. How dumb does this sound?

    If you want to keep it as a skillshot then keep it as a skillshot - but in that case it should hit x5 times harder than it currently does.

    It's just a skillshot for cosmetic purposes only at the moment which is sad.

  9. #9
    At the very least Spinning Fire Blossom should not waste Chi unless it hits something, this is how it was when MoP launched, and at some point they stealth nerfed it. I didn't mean that Dks and Paladins are doing better than us due to mobility, I was just saying that you have to look at a class as a whole, rather than tell us we don't need buffs because OMFG!!! we can fly around... I would really just want another snare break that doesn't require our clunky roll mechanic.
    Last edited by Tangra; 2013-07-18 at 01:19 PM.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Tangra View Post
    At the very least Spinning Fire Blossom should not waste Chi unless it hits something, this is how it was when MoP launched, and at some point they stealth nerfed it. I didn't mean that Dks and Paladins are doing better than us due to mobility, I was just saying that you have to look at a class as a whole, rather than tell us we don't need buffs because OMFG!!! we can fly around... I would really just want another snare break that doesn't require our clunky roll mechanic.
    Exactly. The functionality should have been left like it was at the beginning of MoP - does not consume a resource UNLESS it hits its target.

    The best solution now would be to make it use energy instead of chi.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Tangra View Post
    You mean Paladins and Dks wave down at us from higher up on the rated PvP ladder?
    Didn't say they didn't do better. Just that several classes need to CC to get to their target. He made it out as it was unique and a huge problem.
    Everyone has so much to say
    They talk talk talk their lives away

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Terridon View Post
    Didn't say they didn't do better. Just that several classes need to CC to get to their target. He made it out as it was unique and a huge problem.
    It is unique (no decent dk or ret would use asphyxiate/fist of justice to reach a target in arena) and it is a huge problem. What's worse is that this problem exists because of the poor implementation of Spinning Fire Blossom.

    By the way, I know why you are arguing to the contrary - you don't play a monk. Just go on the ptr, which is up at the moment, make a max level ww monk and try it out. And, if you still don't believe me, tell me what your name is on ptr and which server you are on and I'll come and show you how it's a problem.
    Last edited by Monksrus; 2013-07-19 at 05:15 PM.

  13. #13
    The Lightbringer Ermahgerd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    3,993
    Quote Originally Posted by wickedbastard View Post
    I think monks have enough tricks to get to their targets, they are freaking flying all over the place.
    Give them a reliable root and they will go bananas on every one.

    - - - Updated - - -



    quoted for truth
    Same. If WW monks were still in the state of 5.0-5.1, then I'd agree that monks needed a more reliable way to get to their target, but with paralysis on a 20 yard range, 2 rolls and a 100 yard gap closer + an unreliable ranged root that doesnt DR with Disable root, I'd say WW monks have enough ways to get to their target already.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Emfg View Post
    Same. If WW monks were still in the state of 5.0-5.1, then I'd agree that monks needed a more reliable way to get to their target, but with paralysis on a 20 yard range, 2 rolls and a 100 yard gap closer + an unreliable ranged root that doesnt DR with Disable root, I'd say WW monks have enough ways to get to their target already.
    Still no one has grappled with what I've written. Do you think it's right/wrong that spinning fire blossom should be affected by pets/other targets being between you and your target? Do you think it's right/wrong that targets should be able to avoid your gap closer while it is in the process of being used? Do you think any of this is right when no other class has to deal with similar problematic mechanics?

    You just have an opinion that you want to advocate rather than any desire to wrestle with the opinions and thoughts of the poster.

    I'm afraid you are just listing abilities you've probably seen on wowhead without understanding how they actually work in practice. Let me explain, for the umpteenth time.......

    No melee uses their cc to get to their target in arenas, it is dumb to use paralysis for this reason and paralysis only has a 20 yard range to boot and is broken by damage. Also bear in mind that paralysis is only 4 seconds from the front so if you have a snare on yourself but your target does not, then there is a good chance paralysis will break before you have finished waddling at them.

    The 2 rolls are not effective unless the target is locked in place from range with a short duration root or has a snare applied on them from range. Hence the problem and catch 22.....

    A 100 yard gap closer that can be avoided if the target moves from the location you originally aimed at when you used the ability...................smart people can also foil you if you try to aim where they are going to be.

    "unreliable ranged root" is an understatement - pets affect it which is dumb, lag affects it which is dumb etc. etc.

    What good is a disable root if you cant get to your target? And let's not forget the atrocious hitbox issues which have plagued disable from the beginning and never been acknowledged let alone addressed by developers.

    Again, this is another post likely coming from someone playing against monks rather than having played as a monk.

    The only change I am advocating is to return spinning fire blossom to only consuming a resource if it hits its target. This was stealth nerfed for no reason whatsoever. I myself and monks of all levels wholeheartedly agree with this.

    The other, better alternative is for spinning fire blossom to cost energy instead of chi - it makes much more sense and solves the problem.


    If a warrior is trying to get to his target he will not be affected by lag, he will not be affected by other targets or pets being between himself and his target and he will not be affected by his target suddenly removing snares from range or using a sprint effect - he will just press charge and get to his target. (Please don't post something idiotic like "oh but what if one of the targets in the middle is a mage and roots him hurr hurr hurr - this is beside the point)

    Against good players you have to root them before you roll/fsk at them. The current iteration of spinning fire blossom to do this is too punishing and too affected by bugs.

    I'm not asking to INCREASE ww monk mobility, I'm asking to make it more RELIABLE and iron out BUGS and BAD MECHANICS from it.

    People have a really poor understanding of game mechanics here I'm sorry to say.
    Last edited by Monksrus; 2013-07-20 at 10:28 AM.

  15. #15
    Mechagnome the9tail's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Perth, Western Australia
    Posts
    557
    I think alot of people commenting here have not tried playing monks in PVP competitively and do understand why we need a root.
    Saying our mobility is great does not counter the fact that our root is designed to work without a target for no explicable reason and costs chi rather than energy. The fact it can miss is a huge problem that Blizz left for some sort of flavor difference and the fact aiming can cause a miss and also cost us resources doubles the issue. The man speaketh the truth lordly lordy.
    Adding bewbs to his Avatar since 2011

  16. #16
    i agree with op. but i would like the minor glyph reesigned. instead of making it targetable and loose the root, i'd like it to make it targetable but not double the dmg from x yards. would solve the raliable root problem and if some ppl like to use it as it is in either pvp or pve, they can do so, while we who play pvp against ppl who moves when we roll can choose to glyph it.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by dar0 View Post
    i agree with op. but i would like the minor glyph reesigned. instead of making it targetable and loose the root, i'd like it to make it targetable but not double the dmg from x yards. would solve the raliable root problem and if some ppl like to use it as it is in either pvp or pve, they can do so, while we who play pvp against ppl who moves when we roll can choose to glyph it.
    This is nice. Also make it cost energy instead of chi.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •