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  1. #201
    It's good that they are keeping a closer eye on Windwalkers this patch. A lot of monks were unhappy about how monks were tuned with regards to Rune in T15, so I know it will be something that raises my neck hair when someone speaks it's name.

    I still need to do some PTR dummy testing but here is what I found out yesterday from taking the new mastery and modeling it in my spreadsheet:

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...TUNQdVE#gid=25

    Monks wthout Rune are getting a huge DPS increase, and monks with rune are where they are in 5.3.

    5.3
    Estimated Ascension DPS: 214,612
    Estimated Pow. Strikes DPS: 203,459
    Estimated Chi Brew DPS: 206,348

    5.3 w/ RoRo
    Estimated Ascension DPS: 242,415
    Estimated Pow. Strikes DPS: 222,680
    Estimated Chi Brew DPS: 206,348

    5.4
    Estimated Ascension DPS: 242,609
    Estimated Pow. Strikes DPS: 229,333
    Estimated Chi Brew DPS: 233,055

    Stat priorities go back to being in line with T14: Haste to soft cap > Crit > Mastery and we should go back to using red/orange/purple gems as secondary stats fall below the 2:1 ratio for gemming.

    Looked a little at RoRo with a crit build and it doesn't seem like it would beat out a Renatakis. It looks to be a DPS loss of about 8%.

    Take a look at the spreadsheet and let me know if you have any questions. I'll be doing a little more work on this but mostly just dreading regemming everything when the new patch hits =(

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltycracker View Post
    It's good that they are keeping a closer eye on Windwalkers this patch. A lot of monks were unhappy about how monks were tuned with regards to Rune in T15, so I know it will be something that raises my neck hair when someone speaks it's name.

    I still need to do some PTR dummy testing but here is what I found out yesterday from taking the new mastery and modeling it in my spreadsheet:

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...TUNQdVE#gid=25

    Monks wthout Rune are getting a huge DPS increase, and monks with rune are where they are in 5.3.

    5.3
    Estimated Ascension DPS: 214,612
    Estimated Pow. Strikes DPS: 203,459
    Estimated Chi Brew DPS: 206,348

    5.3 w/ RoRo
    Estimated Ascension DPS: 242,415
    Estimated Pow. Strikes DPS: 222,680
    Estimated Chi Brew DPS: 206,348

    5.4
    Estimated Ascension DPS: 242,609
    Estimated Pow. Strikes DPS: 229,333
    Estimated Chi Brew DPS: 233,055

    Stat priorities go back to being in line with T14: Haste to soft cap > Crit > Mastery and we should go back to using red/orange/purple gems as secondary stats fall below the 2:1 ratio for gemming.

    Looked a little at RoRo with a crit build and it doesn't seem like it would beat out a Renatakis. It looks to be a DPS loss of about 8%.

    Take a look at the spreadsheet and let me know if you have any questions. I'll be doing a little more work on this but mostly just dreading regemming everything when the new patch hits =(
    I wonder if the 3 stacks we get for Chi Brew are supposed to have a chance to proc the new WW mastery, giving us a chance to gain up to 6 stacks if we're lucky. We should probably start asking on the official forums about this before it gets overlooked.

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltycracker View Post
    It's good that they are keeping a closer eye on Windwalkers this patch. A lot of monks were unhappy about how monks were tuned with regards to Rune in T15, so I know it will be something that raises my neck hair when someone speaks it's name.

    I still need to do some PTR dummy testing but here is what I found out yesterday from taking the new mastery and modeling it in my spreadsheet:

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...TUNQdVE#gid=25

    Monks wthout Rune are getting a huge DPS increase, and monks with rune are where they are in 5.3.

    5.3
    Estimated Ascension DPS: 214,612
    Estimated Pow. Strikes DPS: 203,459
    Estimated Chi Brew DPS: 206,348

    5.3 w/ RoRo
    Estimated Ascension DPS: 242,415
    Estimated Pow. Strikes DPS: 222,680
    Estimated Chi Brew DPS: 206,348

    5.4
    Estimated Ascension DPS: 242,609
    Estimated Pow. Strikes DPS: 229,333
    Estimated Chi Brew DPS: 233,055

    Stat priorities go back to being in line with T14: Haste to soft cap > Crit > Mastery and we should go back to using red/orange/purple gems as secondary stats fall below the 2:1 ratio for gemming.

    Looked a little at RoRo with a crit build and it doesn't seem like it would beat out a Renatakis. It looks to be a DPS loss of about 8%.

    Take a look at the spreadsheet and let me know if you have any questions. I'll be doing a little more work on this but mostly just dreading regemming everything when the new patch hits =(
    I'm a little confused here. Looking at the ascendance 4.4 tab, at 9k haste, your spreadsheet has us spending ~ 46 chi/minute yet gaining ~26.5 stacks of tigereye brew. 46 chi would only give us 26.5 stacks of brew/minute if we had a 130% chance to gain an extra stack, which would take over 30k mastery. I see you list 50% mastery raidbuffed which seems reasonable. 46 chi would give us approxmately 15 stacks per minute at that mastery level, which means you have basically double the TeB uptime in your spreadsheet that you would in target dummy sims.

    I think your TEB uptime on your sim is far higher than it would be on target dummies

  4. #204
    Pandaren Monk Hinalover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biggety View Post
    I'm a little confused here. Looking at the ascendance 4.4 tab, at 9k haste, your spreadsheet has us spending ~ 46 chi/minute yet gaining ~26.5 stacks of tigereye brew. 46 chi would only give us 26.5 stacks of brew/minute if we had a 130% chance to gain an extra stack, which would take over 30k mastery. I see you list 50% mastery raidbuffed which seems reasonable. 46 chi would give us approxmately 15 stacks per minute at that mastery level, which means you have basically double the TeB uptime in your spreadsheet that you would in target dummy sims.

    I think your TEB uptime on your sim is far higher than it would be on target dummies
    I noticed that too and made a comment for him in the spreadsheet. He currently has it set to "(G3+H3*2+I3+O3*2)/3" when it should be "(G3+H3*2+I3+O3*2)/4"

  5. #205
    @Biggety

    Are you taking Combo Breaker procs into account in your calculation? CB procs equate to 8.34 chi/min at that level of haste.

    TEB uptime is not a very good metric. Tigereye Brew gives you the same overall benefit regardless of how many stacks that you use; using TEB at 15 stacks gives you the biggest burst, but ideally you should be using it when you need it, i.e. with trinket procs, lust, or when burst is needed. Using TEB only when you have 15 stacks is suboptimal. My spreadsheet lowballs TEB in that it makes an assumption that you blanket your rotation with TEB with 100% uptime, but at a lower magnitude.

    I looked on the PTR and the Chi/TEB looks to be 3 again. I'll verify.

  6. #206
    I haven't gone through the spreadsheet, but I think just basic math is required to know the end results are not accurate.

  7. #207
    High Overlord Gulvan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayma View Post
    I haven't gone through the spreadsheet, but I think just basic math is required to know the end results are not accurate.
    This is the second time you have said "basic math" in a response to something. Prove it. Show me your basic math that says his results here are not accurate. Rotund has always done an excellent job with the spreadsheets and right now has the /4 on chi generation calculation.

    @Rotund this is based on your current gear level, correct? If so I wonder how well our scaling will be with the new gear and trinkets etc. Ill have to copy this current sheet and input my information and see how it will be. I agree it will be a pain to regem, but at least we wont have to do the dumb 9/9/9.001 crap like now. It'll make upgrade more smooth and easier to do.
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  8. #208
    Pandaren Monk Hinalover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saltycracker View Post
    I looked on the PTR and the Chi/TEB looks to be 3 again. I'll verify.
    Well I did some "What-ifs" with your spreadsheet, changing the amount of mastery % per 600 mastery and whether to go with 3 Chi to TeB or 4 Chi to TeB.

    Basically what I came up with is that Crit will ALWAYS be better than Mastery unless they change the Chi to TeB down to 1 Chi. No other time will Mastery be better, or come close to Crit.

    The only other way I could come up with Mastery being ABOUT equal to Crit (though not over it) is if they revert the change back to 3 Chi a minute and up the TeB Value to 15% per stack.

    Actually increasing the proc rate will only separate the value of Mastery and Crit even further and that the only way to increase the value is by increasing the TeB value or Chi to TeB.
    Last edited by Hinalover; 2013-07-11 at 06:01 PM.

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltycracker View Post
    @Biggety

    Are you taking Combo Breaker procs into account in your calculation? CB procs equate to 8.34 chi/min at that level of haste.

    TEB uptime is not a very good metric. Tigereye Brew gives you the same overall benefit regardless of how many stacks that you use; using TEB at 15 stacks gives you the biggest burst, but ideally you should be using it when you need it, i.e. with trinket procs, lust, or when burst is needed. Using TEB only when you have 15 stacks is suboptimal. My spreadsheet lowballs TEB in that it makes an assumption that you blanket your rotation with TEB with 100% uptime, but at a lower magnitude.

    I looked on the PTR and the Chi/TEB looks to be 3 again. I'll verify.
    I hadn't seen the change back to 3 chi per stack. Keep in mind that the tooltip probably hasn't been updated. I was going off the patch notes changing it to 4 chi per stack.

    And yes, I had neglected to include combo breakers. Apologies.

    "Uptime" probably wasn't the right word choice as well. What I meant was that you were showing too many stacks gained for amount of chi spent regardless of how the stacks were used. 56 chi spent per minute at 4 chi per stack with 50% mastery chance of extra stack should be 21 stacks per minute, or sustainable flat dps increase of 26.5% over non TeB buffed damage. That's if you blanket your TeB over your whole rotation. If TeB is used intelligently together with trinket/enchant procs the damage increase will be somewhat higher.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hinalover View Post
    Well I did some "What-ifs" with your spreadsheet, changing the amount of mastery % per 600 mastery and whether to go with 3 Chi to TeB or 4 Chi to TeB.

    Basically what I came up with is that Crit will ALWAYS be better than Mastery unless they change the Chi to TeB down to 1 Chi. No other time will Mastery be better, or come close to Crit.

    The only other way I could come up with Mastery being ABOUT equal to Crit (though not over it) is if they revert the change back to 3 Chi a minute and up the TeB Value to 15% per stack.

    Actually increasing the proc rate will only separate the value of Mastery and Crit even further and that the only way to increase the value is by increasing the TeB value or Chi to TeB.
    Well, that's depressing. We go from mastery rating being garbage in 5.0 to being useful in 5.1, and now it's bad again. This will directly impact how well we scale with gear at high levels as haste is already effectively capped in current gear.

    If scaling well with heroic gear is what is saving our raid spots right now, what happens when that gear scaling takes a hit?

    - - - Updated - - -

    And before I forget, nice work with the spreadsheet. Having numbers to back up or dispel concerns is always a good thing.
    Last edited by Biggety; 2013-07-11 at 06:08 PM.

  10. #210
    Pandaren Monk Hinalover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saltycracker View Post
    I looked on the PTR and the Chi/TEB looks to be 3 again. I'll verify.
    BTW I hopped onto the PTR and it is showing as 4 Chi/TeB in the tooltip.



    Also as a test I did a single RSK and a Tiger Palm, and I didn't get a stack of TeB (using the T16 that is sold) until I did another BoK.
    Last edited by Hinalover; 2013-07-11 at 07:04 PM.

  11. #211
    @Gulvan Yea. I used my armory gearset, and used Ask Mr. Robot to reforge it for a non-RoRo world, and used Simcraft to calcluate the average ability damage for 5.3 and used to model 5.4

    @Biggety Thanks, I appreciate it =)

    @Hina Okay, I see that you are right. I'll make the change and report back. Definitely this will make mastery scale worse, and lower our damage. Thanks for looking at the tooltip and doing the training dummy test.

    I'm still also looking to see how the mastery calculation is formulated. Currently I have it modeled as Mastery = MasteryRating/300 +16 as I took from the PTR character sheet:



    Hina and other people have been using the equation Mastery = (MasteryRating/600) * 2 + 8

    I'm at work at the moment so I can't log on. If someone could log on the PTR and see, check your mastery with bad juju or some large mastery budget item on and off and report how mastery changes. If the equation is the latter, DPS will scale better with mastery, as it gets a x2 multiplier applied. I'm not 100% sure, but I think it might not matter either way how the equation is written, but I'll verify that.

    Hina, where did you see that equation. I can't divine it from the patch notes or the datamining, so I just used the PTR client as my source.

    Edit:
    Made the change, and the new mastery as it exists on the PTR is a nerf. Well, at least we know what it will take to improve it! 3 Chi/TEB will make everything better (hopefully)

  12. #212
    Just going from that screenshot and knowing that base mastery is 4800 and it must be linear with 0-intercept, we only need 1 data point:
    (4800+8430)/(16+28.1) = 300 mastery per 1%

    0 mastery: (4800+0)/300 = 16%
    8430 mastery: (4800+8430)/300 = 44.10%

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by raffy View Post
    Just going from that screenshot and knowing that base mastery is 4800 and it must be linear with 0-intercept, we only need 1 data point:
    (4800+8430)/(16+28.1) = 300 mastery per 1%

    0 mastery: (4800+0)/300 = 16%
    8430 mastery: (4800+8430)/300 = 44.10%
    Precisely, and that's how I have it modeled currently. I'm just wondering if it even matters which way the equation is written to determine how well our DPS scales with mastery. My guess is no.

  14. #214
    Pandaren Monk Hinalover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saltycracker View Post
    Hina, where did you see that equation. I can't divine it from the patch notes or the datamining, so I just used the PTR client as my source.
    It's always been that way. It's:

    Mastery = (MasteryRating/600) * (Base Mastery % / 8) + Base Mastery %

    The way it works is back in Cata the base Mastery # was 8 the MasteryRating/600 would add onto that 8 value. It would then convert that Mastery # into a %. Even the Mastery Buff would supply 5 Mastery. What Blizzard did was that they removed the Mastery # and went straight to the Mastery %. So the 3000 Mastery Rating today is the same as the 5 Mastery as before.
    Last edited by Hinalover; 2013-07-11 at 08:49 PM.

  15. #215
    Gotcha, you told me that before over in EJ, but it didn't sink in. Good to know.

    I guess Blizzard is just giving us an accelerated workout that every other class had to relearn how to play every time they released an expansion. Only we get to do it once per tier. Nbd.

  16. #216
    On the PTR Chi Brew does not seem to have a chance to proc extra Tigerseye Brew via mastery. The forums are down so I can't ask whether this is intended or not currently.

  17. #217
    I think most are pretty close to the 50% mastery range on PTR. Assuming they did revert back to 3 chi per stack with 50% mastery our stack generation would be identical relative to what a full brew is (15 on PTR 10 on live).

    Then the real difference becomes the ~180+/~65 that RoRo provides vs. the static 75. Does a different trinket + reforging, regemming, and not having to deal with the 10 second RoRo ramp up time make up that difference.

  18. #218
    Or to put it another way, under the hood it's:

    Mastery% = (8 + Rating/600) * Multiplier

    and you can calculate what the Multipler is by doing:
    Multiplier = Base% / 8.
    or
    Multiplier = 600 / (rating needed for 1%)

    This is why when they adjust the scaling on mastery, the base mastery% also changes. All they're actually doing is changing the multiplier, which means that the base 8 is worth a different amount of mastery% too. BrM had a multiplier of 0.5 at launch, giving a base mastery of 4% and 1200 mastery rating for each +1%. When they buffed it by 25% in 5.1, the multiplier became 0.625, for a base mastery of 5% and 960 mastery per +1%.

  19. #219
    I find it crazy that since GC tweeted 1 sentence about our healing wich was month ago. We had absolutely NO FEEDBACK at all about our sitation. When i log onto MMO champ and see some class had like 5 or 6 blue post over the week it feels kinda weird.

    There were a shitloads of post written since PTR started and we dont even have a clue if they are working on something for our raid utility ...

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by Eznor View Post
    I find it crazy that since GC tweeted 1 sentence about our healing wich was month ago. We had absolutely NO FEEDBACK at all about our sitation. When i log onto MMO champ and see some class had like 5 or 6 blue post over the week it feels kinda weird.

    There were a shitloads of post written since PTR started and we dont even have a clue if they are working on something for our raid utility ...
    Because blizz has no idea what they are doing to not make us stupidly op. To further add insult to injury, we've gone through 3 masterys (yes 5.4 counts) and they do not give us any thought behind it. Were back to proc chances which do not make us wanting to stack insane amounts in hopes we get 1 more stack. Flat damage increases similar to ret that grant percentage based increases to even 1-2 abilites would make us go ape-shit.
    Last edited by Asacado; 2013-07-12 at 03:06 AM. Reason: Because windwalker.
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