Thread: Prot Nerfs

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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by Weightlifter View Post
    Prot using ret gear isn't intended. If it was, they wouldn't have to set loot spec to ret when they do LFR, and their tier sets would contain haste. It's not different from enhance shamans using spellpower weapons.
    Blizzard has stated several times that they like how protection paladins are in current state and want it to be a rolemodel for the other plate tanks for future expansions.

    If haste was not intended to be used by protection paladins they would have nerfed it by now, which they have not at all.
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  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weightlifter View Post
    Some guilds even have a policy where tanks are geared first and you know what that means for ret paladins if there is a prot tank.
    Don't raid with such guilds then?

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Weightlifter View Post
    Prot using ret gear isn't intended. If it was, they wouldn't have to set loot spec to ret when they do LFR, and their tier sets would contain haste. It's not different from enhance shamans using spellpower weapons.
    Oh, you were serious. That's cute, if terribly uninformed.

    Lore: The goal is not to get you to prefer one over the other. We want you to like haste AND avoidance.
    Lore again: We know you guys like active mitigation. We like it too. We totally agree -- it feels a lot better (and a lot more fun) than passive mitigation.

    However, in the short term, dodge and parry still exist. We want them to serve at least some value to tanks. They don't have to be your best stats, we just want them to feel like they're at least accomplishing something.

    Looking to the future, we want to keep the idea of "tank" stats around, but they may end up playing less of a role than they do today. Between Dodge and Parry, it's entirely possible that we'll cut one or another and embrace the idea of active mitigation even further. Those changes are just way too big for 5.4. We'd have to re-itemize hundreds of items, rebalance boss damage, change class mechanics, and so on.

    So to summarize: we love active mitigation, and we love that you love active mitigation. We want to push harder in that direction, but we can't fit that in for 5.4.


    Remind me again how we're not supposed to use haste or "Ret" gear?

    Because I kinda value a developer's opinion on Prot more than someone who doesn't even have a Prot spec.
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  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Weightlifter View Post
    I want haste nerfed for prot so they will use tank gear instead of DPS gear. I'm so tired of prot paladins ninjaing my loots because "omg dat haezt". Some guilds even have a policy where tanks are geared first and you know what that means for ret paladins if there is a prot tank.
    I'm tired of stupid posts on the forums. Guess we'll never get what we want will we?

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    And, if I got an avatar, I'd have to change my signature!
    I am aware of the thing with the lack of an avatar from silly posts in previous threads, but what actually started it as a "thing" for people to comment on?

    Was someone all like, "Yeah, well, your opinion doesn't matter cuz u no got avatar! " or something?

    And you should totally troll people by adding an avatar that was just a square of the same color as the background.

  6. #206
    I want haste nerfed for prot so they will use tank gear instead of DPS gear. I'm so tired of prot paladins ninjaing my loots because "omg dat haezt". Some guilds even have a policy where tanks are geared first and you know what that means for ret paladins if there is a prot tank.
    How is that different from having, for instance, a Frost DK in your raid? There are so many classes that share loot, I really don´t see your point. Besides, would you rather have Prot Palas get dodge/parry gear, progress slowly and get your haste gear or share loot, progress faster and eventually get your loot anyways? There shouldn´t even be a discussion here.

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Thoris View Post
    I'm tired of stupid posts on the forums. Guess we'll never get what we want will we?
    He's really going to flip his shit if, in 6.0, they remove dodge/parry tank gear entirely and make plate tanks gear just like plate DPS.

    You know, just like both leather tanks use the same leather as their DPS specs and rogues.

    Frankly, I feel the poor Warrior tanks could use the same "Haste reduces GCD's and ability CD's" treatment, because holy shit, my Prot Warrior feels SOOOOOO sluggish compared to my Prot Pally.
    Last edited by Deathgoose; 2013-07-10 at 05:00 PM.

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathgoose View Post
    He's really going to flip his shit if, in 6.0, they remove dodge/parry tank gear entirely and make plate tanks gear just like plate DPS.

    You know, just like both leather tanks use the same leather as their DPS specs and rogues.
    Yeah its such a selfish attitude. "It gives me less loot therefore its shit". No thoughts as to what is possibly best for the team as a whole. Guilds implement loot policies to gear what role they feel needs it the most. For some that's tanks, others heals and so on. Akato put it well, you gear what gets you the best progress and everybody progresses faster meaning more loot.

    Anyway, derailment ended!

  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathgoose View Post
    I am aware of the thing with the lack of an avatar from silly posts in previous threads, but what actually started it as a "thing" for people to comment on?

    Was someone all like, "Yeah, well, your opinion doesn't matter cuz u no got avatar! " or something?
    I'm pretty sure it was during one of MerinPally's drunken sprees in the Prot Guide. Which led me to make a "stay on topic" post. Speaking of...

    Let's stay on the topic of the Protection changes, please.


    That being said, Lore's comment makes me hopeful that they'll remove dodge and parry completely from the game at some point.

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathgoose View Post
    I am aware of the thing with the lack of an avatar from silly posts in previous threads, but what actually started it as a "thing" for people to comment on?

    Was someone all like, "Yeah, well, your opinion doesn't matter cuz u no got avatar! " or something?

    And you should totally troll people by adding an avatar that was just a square of the same color as the background.
    I think it was Nairobi said "Yay 500 posts!" or something like that, to which I replied "And still no avatar!", and it spun on from there.

    I think a 404 would be fitting


    Edit: Sorry malthanis, wrote it before your post Will stay on topic from now on.

    Holy, sanctified, haste
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    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    SS (and it's godawful long GCD) I tried to account for by rounding up my 3.0 sec rotational "rounds" into 3.5 sec, to give an extra 0.5 sec per "CS,J,X" round, which should have been overshooting it really. But, I agree that we don't need to be mana-positive, just neutral. Still, it seems that 10% is low once you factor in the odd Rebuke, taunt, cleanse, hand spell.
    I think that's still going to be an over-estimate though. For a test case, let's take this Horridon log by Slootbag, who we can be reasonably confident was in a high-haste build. He's on Horridon full-time.

    The fight lasted 10:04, or 604 seconds. In that time, he should get 302 ticks of GbtL granting 6% of our 300k base mana each, for a total of 5436k mana returned from GbtL.

    Seal of Insight, on the other hand, only returned 1286.4k mana, 23.66% of what GbtL gave him. We can be reasonably certain that this is the amount he needs to maintain the rotation plus throw out a few cleanses and what not. If that's the case, GbtL really only needs a ~25% buff for us to be mana-neutral, which puts it at 7.5% mana every 2 seconds. Which means the 10% they discussed giving us may actually be more than sufficient.

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by Theck View Post
    In that time, he should get 302 ticks of GbtL granting 6% of our 300k base mana each, for a total of 5436k mana returned from GbtL
    We only have 60k base mana though? and holy gets the passive to increase there's to 300k unless i'm getting confused again.
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  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by Saishan View Post
    We only have 60k base mana though? and holy gets the passive to increase there's to 300k unless i'm getting confused again.
    Nope, you're correct. So that modifies GbtL retuns to 1087.2k, which means SoI was returning 118% of what GbtL was. So we'd need to be in the 13.1% ballpark for it to keep us going at high haste.

    <edit> I guess that teaches me to try and do quick-and-dirty math in-between SimC rebuilds.
    Last edited by Theck; 2013-07-10 at 05:59 PM.

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by Theck View Post
    Nope, you're correct. So that modifies GbtL retuns to 1087.2k, which means SoI was returning 118% of what GbtL was. So we'd need to be in the 13.1% ballpark for it to keep us going at high haste.
    Ok glad we're all on the same page, mathematically.

    I posted these findings on the PTR forums (in Lore's comment thread), and showed that on a fight like HC Council (where we have interrupt on cooldown, hand spells, stuns, taunt swaps, etc going on) we'd need at least 100% increase to current GbtL at my haste levels (~40%). So 12% to barely break even at 40%, I asked for a consideration of 15% to account for similar fight conditions in SoO where 50% will be far more of "the norm".

    Any support by all appreciated!
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
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    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
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  15. #215
    Just saw this on MMO for the first time, haven't checked anything but the prot thread on the official forums for a bit:

    Qian-Le, Courage of Niuzao traded Dodge for Expertise.

    So the agility legendary tank cloak had dodge removed and expertise put on. Has there been a blue post on this or any sort of explanation for it? Seems strange that on one hand they talk about wanting avoidance to mean something while it exists but only for plate tanks, in the case of agi tanks they'll make more appealing stats. I'm not mad about this change, it's just confusing again. They keep saying they like active mitigation but want dodge/parry to mean something while they exist but then they take dodge off the agi cloak. There's 0 consistency as far as I can tell lol

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by Aceshigh View Post
    Just saw this on MMO for the first time, haven't checked anything but the prot thread on the official forums for a bit:

    Qian-Le, Courage of Niuzao traded Dodge for Expertise.

    So the agility legendary tank cloak had dodge removed and expertise put on. Has there been a blue post on this or any sort of explanation for it? Seems strange that on one hand they talk about wanting avoidance to mean something while it exists but only for plate tanks, in the case of agi tanks they'll make more appealing stats. I'm not mad about this change, it's just confusing again. They keep saying they like active mitigation but want dodge/parry to mean something while they exist but then they take dodge off the agi cloak. There's 0 consistency as far as I can tell lol
    You're right, there doesn't seem to be any consistency.

    On the one hand, monk/druid tanks share their gear (outside of tier) with rogues and dps druids/monks, while plate tanks are (supposed to) share gear. On the other hand, the same argument could now be made in favor of having tanking leather gear as there is for tanking plate: "enough" specs share that type of gear to make it worthwhile (ie, 3/9 specs for plate tank, [1/9 for plate int], 2/10 for leather tank, [3/10 for leather int]).

    Since, obviously (and appropriately, IMO), they're going to continue not making tanking leather, it seems the only direction to move is to not make tanking plate. True, it probably will take an expansion for that to happen, but honestly it should have been this expansion in the first place - they didn't, because they like avoidance, despite it being the antithesis to the active mitigation paradigm. The problem with avoidance is that they don't fill a role in AM tanking. Sure, they increase TDR, but since they're unreliable, stacking them is useless.

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  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by rhandric View Post
    You're right, there doesn't seem to be any consistency.

    On the one hand, monk/druid tanks share their gear (outside of tier) with rogues and dps druids/monks, while plate tanks are (supposed to) share gear. On the other hand, the same argument could now be made in favor of having tanking leather gear as there is for tanking plate: "enough" specs share that type of gear to make it worthwhile (ie, 3/9 specs for plate tank, [1/9 for plate int], 2/10 for leather tank, [3/10 for leather int]).

    Since, obviously (and appropriately, IMO), they're going to continue not making tanking leather, it seems the only direction to move is to not make tanking plate. True, it probably will take an expansion for that to happen, but honestly it should have been this expansion in the first place - they didn't, because they like avoidance, despite it being the antithesis to the active mitigation paradigm. The problem with avoidance is that they don't fill a role in AM tanking. Sure, they increase TDR, but since they're unreliable, stacking them is useless.
    Yeah a dodge/parry rework or elimination is 100% an expansion overhaul and not a mid expansion thing. All I want for mid expansion is consistency between their design and what they tell us and I think that what most people here want as well. They don't care about being an OP tank (as many people suggest when pallies talk about different mechanics and stats) they just want things to make sense.

    And to touch on your point of TDR I've made several posts on the official forums saying the only way that dodge and parry will become attractive to us ever in this expansion is if they buff them. However, Blizzard knows they can't buff dodge/parry because of the fact that they're really good at TDR and buffing them causes potential for really broken things to start happening. They offer great TDR but they simply do not translate into how the game currently plays (and has for a couple of expansions) OR the current philosophy on tanking models and active mitigation.
    Last edited by Aceshigh; 2013-07-10 at 10:45 PM.

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by Weightlifter View Post
    I want haste nerfed for prot so they will use tank gear instead of DPS gear. I'm so tired of prot paladins ninjaing my loots because "omg dat haezt". Some guilds even have a policy where tanks are geared first and you know what that means for ret paladins if there is a prot tank.
    lets be honest here in 10 man guilds No one wants a ret paladin cause they bring nothing to a group no utility and 99% of groups either has a prot or holy paladin. so most people raiding as ret are 25 man raiders. 25 man loot is LOL ok you wait 1 week for a piece of loot to drop again.
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  19. #219
    A nerf hardly worth mentioning

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by Weightlifter View Post
    Prot using ret gear isn't intended. If it was, they wouldn't have to set loot spec to ret when they do LFR, and their tier sets would contain haste. It's not different from enhance shamans using spellpower weapons.
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...3519?page=3#55 latest example of a blue post disagreeing with you ?

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