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  1. #21
    I've always felt the game (not just mages) should apply a global change to crit, whereby if your crit chance goes over 100% for any ability, you do increased damage based on the amount over 100% you are. Say for Ice Lance, if you go 10% over 100% chance to crit on FoF, your Ice Lances now do an extra 10% damage. Or a Death Knight using Obliterate on a KM proc while he has 10% crit chance, would now do 10% more damage on that ability.

    I think Chaos Bolt works this way, as it is always a guaranteed crit. Would help fix crit scaling on a lot of classes (Mages, Warriors, Ele, DK, Hunters), but would need a little tweaking.

  2. #22
    Immortal Polarthief's Avatar
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    ... Need I say more about it? ;_;

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    Quote Originally Posted by winst View Post
    I've always felt the game (not just mages) should apply a global change to crit, whereby if your crit chance goes over 100% for any ability, you do increased damage based on the amount over 100% you are. Say for Ice Lance, if you go 10% over 100% chance to crit on FoF, your Ice Lances now do an extra 10% damage. Or a Death Knight using Obliterate on a KM proc while he has 10% crit chance, would now do 10% more damage on that ability.

    I think Chaos Bolt works this way, as it is always a guaranteed crit. Would help fix crit scaling on a lot of classes (Mages, Warriors, Ele, DK, Hunters), but would need a little tweaking.
    CB does work this way, and remember what Mages were "created" as back in the day? "Glass Cannons", and to this day, we kinda still are in a sense. We have abilities aimed at avoiding damage (Blink, Blazing Speed), altering or lowering giant amounts of damage over a short duration (Alter Time, Temporal Shield, Ice Block, Greater Invisibility, Cauterize), and dishing out a ton of burst damage (ALL of Arcane, ALL of Frost, Pyroblasts and Combustion on Fire).

    Having a cannon that deals more damage rather than sometimes (this being the "more" in the live part) double damage seems like a better niche for a class. Having Haste give us more mana doesn't really do anything "unique", while having ALL THREE specs have either locked crit (at around 20-40%, depends on spec), or having certain specs (Frost, Frost, Frost) get bonus Crit Damage once an ability hits > 100% crit would certainly be interesting.

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  3. #23
    Moderator Shangalar's Avatar
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    The continuous lack of mage changes, other than the glyphs and some minor stuff before, makes me conclude the following:

    1 - they're currently busy with the very pressing (5.4 pressing) stuff which means changes to specific class abilities which are problematic. As we all recall and I like to mention time and again, they don't really find our T6 talents to be 5.4 pressing.

    2 - they're planning something big for mages which is still in the works and not even ready for testing, probably still in the "shuffling ideas" phase. They probably know that we whine more than DKs and Paladins combined so they're taking a more cautious route and for a good reason - either not to get our hopes up for some major changes or simply not to cause this uncontrollable whine until they're sure they have something tangible.

  4. #24
    Immortal Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shangalar View Post
    They probably know that we whine more than DKs and Paladins combined so they're taking a more cautious route and for a good reason - either not to get our hopes up for some major changes or simply not to cause this uncontrollable whine until they're sure they have something tangible.
    To an extent, it's justified though, when you slap on those L90 talents and ignore them for 2 tiers in a row (and upcoming a 3rd, making an entire expansion)

    Regardless, if they could just say "Mages, changes are coming, just please be patient" or something small, not like "SUPER AMAZING BIG ANNOUNCEMENT: MAGES GETTING THE BEST CHANGES EVER!" kind of thing... [We all know how the Gilnean Horse bullshit was taken as... copy/paste horses just for +2 mounts on Alliance to balance the Karts on Horde]. It's the annoyance of sitting here, hoping something, anything, will come is what's pissing me off.

    Let's just hope it's not the Friday of 5.4 Week. (Mage points to anyone who gets the reference)

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  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    To an extent, it's justified though, when you slap on those L90 talents and ignore them for 2 tiers in a row (and upcoming a 3rd, making an entire expansion)

    Regardless, if they could just say "Mages, changes are coming, just please be patient" or something small, not like "SUPER AMAZING BIG ANNOUNCEMENT: MAGES GETTING THE BEST CHANGES EVER!" kind of thing... [We all know how the Gilnean Horse bullshit was taken as... copy/paste horses just for +2 mounts on Alliance to balance the Karts on Horde]. It's the annoyance of sitting here, hoping something, anything, will come is what's pissing me off.

    Let's just hope it's not the Friday of 5.4 Week. (Mage points to anyone who gets the reference)
    Well, I'd hate to be that guy but if at least somewhat major changes were coming, chances are they would have revealed some hint of it or actually done something (ie: warlocks, shamans) by now. At this point, I'm just expecting very little changes besides number tweaks.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Shangalar View Post
    The continuous lack of mage changes, other than the glyphs and some minor stuff before, makes me conclude the following:

    1 - they're currently busy with the very pressing (5.4 pressing) stuff which means changes to specific class abilities which are problematic. As we all recall and I like to mention time and again, they don't really find our T6 talents to be 5.4 pressing.

    2 - they're planning something big for mages which is still in the works and not even ready for testing, probably still in the "shuffling ideas" phase. They probably know that we whine more than DKs and Paladins combined so they're taking a more cautious route and for a good reason - either not to get our hopes up for some major changes or simply not to cause this uncontrollable whine until they're sure they have something tangible.
    Honestly Shang, I think it's #1. Mages aren't in a bad place with current gear levels....and arcane & fire will only get better in 5.4 (if status quo is maintained). I don't think the big changes will occur until next xpac (when they make sweeping changes to L90 talents). I'm hoping they really look hard at mages for next xpac, and try to give each spec an identity. In my opinion, mages have the most homogenized 3 specs in the game.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Shangalar View Post
    The continuous lack of mage changes, other than the glyphs and some minor stuff before, makes me conclude the following:

    2 - they're planning something big for mages which is still in the works and not even ready for testing, probably still in the "shuffling ideas" phase. They probably know that we whine more than DKs and Paladins combined so they're taking a more cautious route and for a good reason - either not to get our hopes up for some major changes or simply not to cause this uncontrollable whine until they're sure they have something tangible.
    I thought this too, but did you see the Hunter 5.4 post they made a day or two ago?

    They basically said "Don't worry hunters. We know you are upset. We know there are not a lot of changes to address this. We're working on them right now, and here are some of our ideas."

    Mages get:

    Glyph of the Unbound Elemental Your Water Elemental is replaced by an Unbound Water Elemental.

    Is this a joke? Yay making the elemental look cooler for the tier of raiding where no mages will play frost.

  8. #28
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    I wonder how alternate resources might work out for mages, because they obviously worked with locks. I know arcane has been a popular target for this, since it really already has them with the charges. I agree though regarding fire and crit - if they want the scaling to stop being out of control and to be able to balance fire not only with other classes but with arcane and frost, it needs to be divorced from crit.

    I think it'd be cool to have a resource that was meant for combustion, like "temperature", or maybe something less cheesy. Make PB a proc, closer to the way IL and FFB are proc'd for frost. It'd be sort of lame to have the bomb do exactly what it does for frost, but I think it needs some additional purpose for fire. Use your resource to fire off combustions, which are stronger the "hotter" you are - no CD on combustion, just would need to balance resource charging and damage per unit of resource. Still cleaveable, but much more reliable and predictable. Maybe have a "spontaneous combustion" or something where you fire off a free combustion, off the gcd, when some event happens (not consecutive crits...).

    Hopefully Blizzard can think outside the box.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Frost1129 View Post
    Is this a joke? Yay making the elemental look cooler for the tier of raiding where no mages will play frost.
    I think you overvalue the number of Heroraiders.
    The most mages (people at all) dont do hero and think about spec or scaling or anything.
    Since the elemental is here people wanted a other look. Now you get it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    It's the annoyance of sitting here, hoping something, anything, will come is what's pissing me off.
    Blizz had said it many times before: They dont say things because the people tend to overvalue or overwant some things. If they say "Changes are coming" everyone throws in another theory of what will happen.
    At the end its a small adjustment and everyone is upset because it was not the idea of their own.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Huevos View Post
    I wonder how alternate resources might work out for mages, because they obviously worked with locks.
    I had an idea about how to add something like that to fire mages. Please let me know what you think.

    Basic rotation.
    Bomb spell
    Scorch for movement and a temp fire buff (more on that below)
    Fireblast for movement and dot spread (unlimted targets in a 10yrd range)
    Fireball to build ignite
    Pyroblast during hotstreak

    Note: Scorch will apply a 5% damage buff to the mage increasing damage done by fireball fireblast and pyroblast and pyroblast! stacking up to 3 times. Lasts 15 sec
    This is to stop mindnumbing fireball spam.

    New mechanic's
    Heat
    Direct critical strikes from fireball and fireblast and scorch grant Heat to your Heating Up bar. Once Heating Up is full players can unleash Hot Streak with combustion.

    Heating Up Bar
    You gain 10 Heat per direct crit from fireball and 5 Heat from scorch and fireblast. At 100 Heat the bar is full and the mage can activate Hot Streak with combustion.
    Heating up bar depletes when the mage exits combat.

    Hot streak (reworked)
    During combustion Fireball morphs into Pyroblast (same cast time as fireball but empowered) with subsequent crits by Pyroblast resulting in the next Pyroblast to be instant and deal 100% more damage. Hot streak lasts 30 seconds.

    Goals for this
    Keep crit interesting for the spec without it being the be all and end all, cut down on the RNG somewhat.
    Give the mage control over when to unleash hell! and when to hold back.
    Ignite and pyroblast dot still work the same as always.
    Give mages the feeling of building a fire, start with kindling (scorch) Get the fire going (fireball crits) pour napalm on it! (pyroblast!)

    You would still want crit, however haste would be valuable too for frequency of crits and to build the meter as quickly as possible.
    With dots rolling from ignite and pyroblast dot, mastery would be important too.

    I know im dreaming, but if we are talking about a way to grant spec identity with a resource bar I would like to throw my idea in

  11. #31
    @pyrostorm9001
    Please don't include any debuffs that are being stacked by Scorch, there has already been such a mechanic and it wasn't particularly engaging.

    Your idea is interesting, but I'd like to point out that the whole building up fire to fill Heating Up gauge to be able to burst is very restricting unless the whole cycle is quick. Losing Heat buff overtime (even if only out of combat) doesn't help either. Let me explain. I'll use Priests as an example (yeah, again =) ). The most powerful Shadow Priest build as of now requires them to build up 3 Shadow Orbs to be able to deal burst damage. To build 3 orbs in a standard single-target fight outside of execute phase it takes 3 Mind Blast casts which have 8 sec cooldown. So there's a 3x(8+1.5)~30 seconds "heating up" phase between ~8 seconds of burst phases. The thing is that these orbs do not expire. You can stack them beforehand, sit on them prior to the vulnerable boss state or carry them from pack to pack in dungeons or to set up burst in PVP.

    Now imagine Fire in dungeons, challenge modes, on trash, questing or BGs. Let's assume building HU takes 30 sec. You stack up Heating Up, then you have 30 seconds of Hot Streak to burst, but the fight doesn't last that long, so you constantly lose your opportunities. And you can't build up HU during one pack to unleash HS on the other - even if the bar will only partially deteriorate between fights. Also alternating 30 seconds of building up with 30 sec of burst is too much as it makes it harder to utilize it to the fullest. You obviously wouldn't want to move during these 30 sec burst phases to cast Scorch instead of Pyro, you wouldn't want shorter fights (dungeons, questing) as you won't be able to ramp up in time.

    Sorry, maybe I'm too skeptical, but I think there should be no Scorch debuff stacking, the resource shouldn't deteriorate (like Spriest orbs) or shouldn't require filling the gauge to 100% (like Destro warlocks) and bursts should be shorter or less frequent.
    Last edited by Nightfall; 2013-07-10 at 10:05 AM.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Nightfall View Post
    @pyrostorm9001
    Please don't include any debuffs that are being stacked by Scorch, there has already been such a mechanic and it wasn't particularly engaging.
    Weird as it sounds.. I kinda liked it. I can't explain how or why, but I felt meh when they took scorch out of the gameplay basicly. And now adding it back as the movement only option. More spells to use is more fun for me, but dunno abt others..

  13. #33
    You make a good point. and this is why im not a designer Still i like the idea's perhaps dropping the expire. but removing scorch leaves just fball spam. and thats boring as all hell.

  14. #34
    My suggestion to fix fire mage burst would be something along lines of a on demand critchance buff.

    Rising flames (5min cd) (magic buff) (!pyroblast crits reduce the cd by 3sec)
    15sec duration
    increases your critchance by 10% every 1.5sec (starting the instant it is activated so you have 100% critchance from the buff for like 1.5sec in the end) "tick" rate modified by haste like a dot would, but total duration stays the same.

    This would make burst more controllable and increase the value of haste.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by I-Swizzle-I View Post
    Well, there are only two DoT casters really, in the form of Locks and Spriests (Boomkins can go either way, but their nukes hit much harder than their DoTs), but ultimately the Fire Mastery, along with the Frost and Arcane ones, need a bit of a change. If you want to ask; yes, I do have some ideas.

    Step 1: Make Ignite a Fire passive instead of the Mastery. Your damaging Fireball, Pyroblast, and Scorch spells burn the target for an additional 40% of the damage dealt over 4 seconds.

    Step 2: In addition to its current effects, Inferno Blast now refreshes the duration of your Ignite spell on the current target.

    Step 3: *NEW* Master of Elements. Your Fireball, Pyroblast, and Scorch spells have an X% increased chance to critically strike on targets afflicted by your Mage bombs. (basically scraps CM and replaces it with something much easier to balance since it's now additive and not multiplicative)

    Step 4: *NEW MASTERY* Critical Mass. Increases the critical strike bonus damage of all your spells by X%.

    Boom. There. Changed the spec up enough to put more damage back into the control of the player without making it feel too much like a Warlock. Cheque please!
    tbh it sounds like a really good idea

  16. #36
    Pandaren Monk Myz's Avatar
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    I'm growing tired of people fantasizing about new abilities or new passives each patch, only to make elaborate posts with an in-depth explanation of how these abilities look like, how they interact, et cetera. You just have to realize that we are not getting those kind of changes at the end of an expansion, before the final raiding tier. It almost pisses me off that every discussion on patch balance turns into a "Hey guys, look what I came up with this time! *insert 4 paragraphs of ridiculous suggestions that will obviously never see the light of day*".

    With regards to the current Blizzard radio silence: it reminds me a lot of how Elemental Shamans were treated the past few tiers. We won't get sweeping changes, we will get a half-assed number tweak that will probably end up nerfing the extend we scale out of control on that horrible crit stat, and they'll say we are in an excellent place.

    The most pressing matter to me is the viability of Arcane and Frost. I enjoy playing Fire but I'm well tired of the RNG component. Starting a progression boss fight without a single crit on your first x casts, having a complete lack of pyro crits when building a big ignite to combust on (especially on fights like Council and Tortos where combustion plays a massive role in our performance), irritate me too much lately. It's nice to dish out big numbers, it's not so nice when your big burst that defines your performance is almost an unknown variable. I enjoy my Moonkin alt much more in that department, in that I somewhat know each time how hard I will burst.
    Last edited by Myz; 2013-07-10 at 01:56 PM.

  17. #37
    All mage specs to a degree have SOME rng. If you DON'T like dealing with variability, then this is not the class for you. I have been playing my mage since BC, the only spec I have not had a lot of fun raiding with was Frost, and thankfully that was a really short stint. Balancing a class whose primary purpose is that of a "Glass Cannon with Jaw Dropping damage" Everyone remember that comment, has got to be very difficult. Add in that now the number of people that are theorycrafting has skyrocketed...back when the "right" spec was more difficult to attain, only those that prepared were able to reach it. Now, if they are unbalanced...it sticks out like a sore thumb.

    I'm growing tired of people fantasizing about new abilities or new passives each patch...
    I couldn't agree more. Blizzard pays these developers a decent penny to think of this stuff, it doesn't sit on one persons head. GC is the "lead" developer, he has a team, and in particular, there is most certainly SOMEONE, that thinks about mages all the time.
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  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by pyrostorm9001 View Post
    I had an idea about how to add something like that to fire mages. Please let me know what you think.

    Note: Scorch will apply a 5% damage buff to the mage increasing damage done by fireball fireblast and pyroblast and pyroblast! stacking up to 3 times. Lasts 15 sec
    This is to stop mindnumbing fireball spam.
    NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
    My trying to manage a group of mages who never wanted to scorch makes me want to do unspeakable things to you for suggesting this.

    No more stacking debuffs. please. Especially not on a spell we don't want to cast anyways.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by mrgreenthump View Post
    Weird as it sounds.. I kinda liked it. I can't explain how or why, but I felt meh when they took scorch out of the gameplay basicly. And now adding it back as the movement only option. More spells to use is more fun for me, but dunno abt others..
    It was terrible. Like, fucking terrible. Being the scorch bitch was never fun.

  19. #39
    Pandaren Monk Myz's Avatar
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    And on top of it all, we lost our Warlock for our 10man G2. We're not even that worried about the lack of Portals or anything, but his DPS is not something we can miss. He was mostly up there with me, and while our other DPS are excellent players, they are not in the same ballpark as Warlock output.

    I'm contemplating rerolling, but that won't solve it either. Then we'll be down a Mage.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Frost1129 View Post
    NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
    My trying to manage a group of mages who never wanted to scorch makes me want to do unspeakable things to you for suggesting this.

    No more stacking debuffs. please. Especially not on a spell we don't want to cast anyways.
    Make it! Make it! Ah and remove the stacking buff from frost. Lets all laugh at Fire

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