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  1. #21
    You do realize this is just merging the old SS glyph with the skill itself? We used to have a glyph on the MoP PTR that increased dmg by 25% and energy cost by 25% which is EXACTLY what this change is, and the Ruthlessness thing is so far from new I just want to cry, it's been out since bloody Vanilla dammit!

    As Pathal point out, this will have a MASSIVE ripple-effect, SS is what, 8-10% of our dmg? They will buff that by about 2-3% at the cost of reducing the dmg from all our finishers due to less CP's and pretty much any CP using ability INCLUDING Relentless Blades reducing the CD's less due to a lack of CP's....
    (also, the 10% Evis nerf, although unless it was reverted, also gave it a 13% higher AP scaling buff so not sure if that will actually be a buff or nerf in the end)

    While in theory, getting 1 CP after every 5CP finishers sounds nice, but there are times we don't use a 5 CP finisher (say, SnD running out, only got 2 CP and low energy or transition, add dying or God knows)

    And also as someone else pointed out, will this even work with Anticipation? The game is so sluggish with Anticipation (the amount of CP's or energy I've wasted waiting for my Anticipation charges to be added so I can use another finisher during CD's.....wow)

    And as others also point out, this will make leveling a Combat Rogue really tedious work, or even playing Combat on any level excluding the really high-end geared ones with insane haste levels horrible.

    This is just my 2cents
    (Btw, trying to go along the lines of "wasting CP's during CD's or w/e kind of stuff is pointless, everyone's done it a ton due to how server-dependant we are during CD's)

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Chult View Post
    The more frequent RvS buffed Sinister Strikes which grant 2 CP's on crit still outweigh the CP's gained from Ruthlessness.
    It hasn't been this way since wrath of the lich king.

    It's a 20% chance on ANY sinister strike on RvS debuffed targets. ANY SS, not just crits.

  3. #23
    Blademaster timbo117's Avatar
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    so make combat same speed as mutilate? O.o

  4. #24
    Banned Ryan Cailan Ebonheart's Avatar
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    The spec is even going to be worse. I mean 50 energy to use one sinister strike? Have fun 90% of people who don't have max pve hero gear. This change only makes haste even more valuable for Combat.

  5. #25
    Fierydemise came out with some rough Shadowcraft numbers regarding the changes:
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...534?page=6#120

    Quote Originally Posted by 94775750819
    I've finished hacking these changes into ShadowCraft and I am convinced that these changes should not go live.

    First some numbers from ShadowCraft using a reasonably optimized ilvl 535 gear snapshot that I think shows the problem with this proposed change.

    DPS:
    Code:
             w/o T15 4pc     w/ T15 4pc
    Curr: 223912.042673    252443.222322
    Prop: 212873.372094    255493.333188
    AR Cooldown:
    Code:
           w/o T15 4pc      w/ T15 4pc
    Curr: 63.2196410691  58.4801016488
    Prop: 64.8810669465  50.8543982647
    T15 4pc EP Value:
    Code:
    Curr: 12195.5382051
    Prop: 19186.9581447
    What you'll notice is that the proposed scheme is dps neutral only in the presence of T15 4pc and is a substantial dps loss without. Obviously numbers can be tuned but this is a step in the wrong direction.

    The proposed changes make zero difference in spamminess during AR+SB which is the primary source of the complaints and slows down the spec the rest of the time. This seems directly opposite to what theses changes should do. Additionally these changes only further serve to prop up the T15 4pc which has been an overpowered set bonus from day 1 and is unlikely to be replaced during T16 without substantial nerfs.

    Additionally these changes create substantial quality of life issues of leveling and low gear level players. Combat can already be quite frustrating at low gear levels because of limited haste and this will only serve to exacerbate that issue. In fact with these changes it is entirely possible that a poorly geared player could have their BG stacks fall off while using BF.

    I see no good reason for these proposed changes. While I am glad that Blizzard is paying attention to combat rogue issues but these changes are not the correct fix.
    Suffice to say, the changes aren't looking good.

  6. #26
    Ill say it again. Only 2 things need to be address to fix the core issue of combat rogues:

    1. Change how AR increase energy regen. AR + high haste = loss of dps which is counter productive to gearing up. Change AR to +damage done and +attack speed. Simple fix (just need to balance numbers) but it completely fixes the energy cap problem and keeps the "spammy" style of combat that blizzard associates combat with. Combat rogues can continue to stack haste and not have to strain their wrists with a .5 sec gcd which is just ridiculous. Without a third party device/program it's almost 100% impossible to fully use AR currently which is bad game play mechanics. Not everyone is a crazy Korean starcraft player with 424246426214 apm and sub 50ms. It's a horribly designed mechanic that only a small percentage of people who play this can actually get the full benefit of it. It's not even a skill issue at the point. Best skilled combat rogue in the game could still fail at AR if he has a little bit higher latency during his burst.

    2. Buff combat damage. Whether it's a buff to vitality or whatever combat needs higher dps. Thousands of rogues have proven that combat is behind assassination in damage time and time again. Just shuffling abilities around isn't going to do anything. Combat needs a straight buff.

  7. #27
    Ugh, I wish he wouldn't point them in the direction of nerfing the t15 4pc. I mean it is retarded as hell, but I am very, very afraid they will nerf it without giving us compensation.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Warstar View Post
    Ill say it again. Only 2 things need to be address to fix the core issue of combat rogues:

    1. Change how AR increase energy regen. AR + high haste = loss of dps which is counter productive to gearing up. Change AR to +damage done and +attack speed. Simple fix (just need to balance numbers) but it completely fixes the energy cap problem and keeps the "spammy" style of combat that blizzard associates combat with. Combat rogues can continue to stack haste and not have to strain their wrists with a .5 sec gcd which is just ridiculous. Without a third party device/program it's almost 100% impossible to fully use AR currently which is bad game play mechanics. Not everyone is a crazy Korean starcraft player with 424246426214 apm and sub 50ms. It's a horribly designed mechanic that only a small percentage of people who play this can actually get the full benefit of it. It's not even a skill issue at the point. Best skilled combat rogue in the game could still fail at AR if he has a little bit. higher latency during his burst.
    This. Nerfing the energy regen on Rush is just stupid, half the power of AR + SB is the increased amount of finishers which means lower CDs. The buff to att speed dmg done would have to be huge to compensate. And in all honesty make it OP or just make AR a poor CD further remove combat flavour.

    People are fixating on t15 4pc. Are they seriously saying come t16 they will still be using it with SoO gear? I can't see it? Remove the 4 set out of the equation. Combat feels a good spec. Fluid.

    2 changes I would like to see is a FL DS style RvS for a bit more engagement. And rather then passive buffs, get more active increase dmg on SS or something.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Lumbermill View Post
    This. Nerfing the energy regen on Rush is just stupid, half the power of AR + SB is the increased amount of finishers which means lower CDs. The buff to att speed dmg done would have to be huge to compensate. And in all honesty make it OP or just make AR a poor CD further remove combat flavour.

    People are fixating on t15 4pc. Are they seriously saying come t16 they will still be using it with SoO gear? I can't see it? Remove the 4 set out of the equation. Combat feels a good spec. Fluid.

    2 changes I would like to see is a FL DS style RvS for a bit more engagement. And rather then passive buffs, get more active increase dmg on SS or something.
    how exactly is mashing 2 buttons fluid its not fluid its spammy. assassination with enough haste feels fluid not to spammy not to slow
    the ultimate answer's to all rogue issues in MoP:

    -Reroll another class, who wants rougue's anyway.
    -Diablo 3 Sold 15 Million Copys
    -Haste will fix it
    -Rogue's are fine

  10. #30
    Then you have little concept of what fluid means. With combat and the energy gains means you can flow from one spell to another. Just because its fast paced doesn't mean it doesn't flow.

    Muti on the other hand involves pooling which break up fluidity.

    And we get it you dislike combat.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Lumbermill View Post
    People are fixating on t15 4pc. Are they seriously saying come t16 they will still be using it with SoO gear? I can't see it? Remove the 4 set out of the equation. Combat feels a good spec. Fluid.
    I agree with this...designing the spec around problems created by a soon to be replaced tier bonus is only going to cause further issues. Replacing that tier will have the spec feeling much better, but sadly the numbers appear to be in need of some retuning. Losing that bonus is going to make combats scaling between tiers pale in comparison to the rate the other specs will be scaling. (as in, the difference between t15 combat and t16 combat will likely be less drastic than the difference between t15 assass and t16 assass. I also believe Subtlety apparently being looked at will only further serve to make combat unappealing)
    Last edited by Infective; 2013-07-13 at 12:06 PM.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Lumbermill View Post
    Then you have little concept of what fluid means. With combat and the energy gains means you can flow from one spell to another. Just because its fast paced doesn't mean it doesn't flow.

    Muti on the other hand involves pooling which break up fluidity.

    And we get it you dislike combat.
    i dont dislike combat at all i used to play alot of combat back in the days of BC and LK and Cata. but i consider combat spammy rather then fluid. if they would lower the cost of mutilate and maybe let it generate 1 cp instead of 2 cp then the rotation might feel more like it suits my playstyle. i like fast paced combat to some degree but combat is out of control during AR burst phases
    the ultimate answer's to all rogue issues in MoP:

    -Reroll another class, who wants rougue's anyway.
    -Diablo 3 Sold 15 Million Copys
    -Haste will fix it
    -Rogue's are fine

  13. #33
    Band aids, band aids everywhere, anyway i'm not playing rogue right now so who cares?

    Posting to say "i don't care anymore" isn't constructive to the discussion. Infracted.
    Last edited by Coldkil; 2013-07-17 at 08:17 AM.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by D3athsting View Post
    Band aids, band aids everywhere, anyway i'm not playing rogue right now so who cares?
    People who are currently playing rogue, maybe ...

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by D3athsting View Post
    Band aids, band aids everywhere, anyway i'm not playing rogue right now so who cares?
    Maybe the rest of the rogue subforum full of rogues talking about rogues and clearly labelled "rogue" that you clicked on. Especially inside the thread about rogue dps done by rogues with rogue tier and rogue changes being discussed by devs.

    Maybe that.



    The shadowcraft changes are not as encouraging as I thought. Specifically, I didn't think this would be a small loss for non T15 rogues.

    I really dislke the idea being thrown around that "AR is the problem". I've had AR in vanilla, and it was not a problem. I had it in BC, and it was not a problem. I had it in Lich King and it was amazing, no kind of problem. I had it in Cata and it was only a problem in the final tier, and even then not by much. And now in MoP suddenly it's an issue?

    The issue is a combination of the ability to stack AR and Blades, both of which do similar things, and the dev approach to that has been to tweak the GCD. I think any of these are better solutions:

    1)- Big energy bar for combat rogues. If I'm at 20/200 energy when i press these cooldowns, I'm probably doing ok.
    2)- Revealing off of GCD, or ability to spend energy for damage off the GCD.
    3)- Energy lost to cap isn't lost during AR / Blades, but instead fills your pool over the next 30 seconds after the AR/Blades is over.
    4)- A more threatening and expensive Sinister (as we see them trying).
    5)- AR and Blades mutually exclusive (downside is that everyone else gets to stack their shit up)

    Any of these could be great. The fourth is technically the easiest, and it seems like a good start- to keep CPs similar they are adding back a version of Ruthlessness, but I think at this point it sounds like they just missed their mark by a bit. If the SS damage went up a tad, then bang, it's a buff for everyone. But I think the other ways of addressing this are ok.

    The T15 bonus might in fact be too strong into next tier. But I kind of doubt they can't bribe us out of it or anything. They are normally pretty good at bribing rogues to upgrade without serious nerfs to old tier stuff.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    I really dislke the idea being thrown around that "AR is the problem". I've had AR in vanilla, and it was not a problem. I had it in BC, and it was not a problem. I had it in Lich King and it was amazing, no kind of problem. I had it in Cata and it was only a problem in the final tier, and even then not by much. And now in MoP suddenly it's an issue?
    AR was a problem during late T14 in cata as well. The problem with AR as shadowboy is fond of saying is that it was designed with vanilla mechanics in mind. When energy regen was static AR made sense, however now that we can have 15+ energy regen outside of AR its very easy to get into capping situations during AR. Yes SB plays a role by increasing finisher numbers which are lower energy but even without SB energy capping during AR would be a problem because energy regen now scales.

    The T15 bonus might in fact be too strong into next tier. But I kind of doubt they can't bribe us out of it or anything. They are normally pretty good at bribing rogues to upgrade without serious nerfs to old tier stuff.
    I very much doubt they can bribe us out out it without nerfing it. Look at my numbers that were quoted above, under this proposed scheme T15 4pc is approximately a 40K dps increase in ilvl 535 gear. To put that in perspective, if I took all my gear and downgraded it from double upgraded heroic/heroic tforged to unupgraded normal gear that is about 40K dps loss, that is dropping 23 ilvls is about 40K dps loss. The first step to fixing combat is nerfing 4pc T15 hard for combat and then go from there.
    Fierydemise
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  17. #37
    The Lightbringer slime's Avatar
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    I think this is exactly what the rogues said they didn't want - just a bump in numbers to keep them competitive... Throw dam rogues a bone already - and do something exciting with one of the specs.... Suprise us.. please ffs.

    When I read changes like this I can't help but hear them in Ben Stein's voice..... "And we will be adding a 10% damage increase to sinister strike... and then we will increase sprint speed by 1% and 2 second duration." That's it Blizz! that's exactly what rogues have been waiting for!

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Lumbermill View Post
    This. Nerfing the energy regen on Rush is just stupid, half the power of AR + SB is the increased amount of finishers which means lower CDs. The buff to att speed dmg done would have to be huge to compensate. And in all honesty make it OP or just make AR a poor CD further remove combat flavour.

    People are fixating on t15 4pc. Are they seriously saying come t16 they will still be using it with SoO gear? I can't see it? Remove the 4 set out of the equation. Combat feels a good spec. Fluid.

    2 changes I would like to see is a FL DS style RvS for a bit more engagement. And rather then passive buffs, get more active increase dmg on SS or something.
    In SoO people are going to have even more haste than they do now. Even without the t15 bonus you can energy cap especially during a bloodlust.

    So in adrenaline rush you get more finishers the way it is now? Cool. What if adrenaline rush did a flat damage increase which causes every one of your attacks to hit harder? Melee/main gauche which is the rogues top damage. Poisons. Sinister strike. And has the added benefit of not capping energy ever. I'm sure with a little bit of math turning AR into a damage increase vs energy regen the numbers could be tuned so that it's the same damage increase just without energy capping which is a dps decrease. Hell, if you're worried about the amount of finishers you can get during adrenaline rush you could just fill up anticipation with 10 charges, pop ar and then you have 2 finishers back to back which you can pop with a higher damage for better burst. It would make combat more viable in pvp that's for sure.

    Personally I just don't think you understand how math works.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    Ugh, I wish he wouldn't point them in the direction of nerfing the t15 4pc. I mean it is retarded as hell, but I am very, very afraid they will nerf it without giving us compensation.
    I am 100% ok with a nerf to the set bonus as long as the mechanics are addressed.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    I really dislke the idea being thrown around that "AR is the problem". I've had AR in vanilla, and it was not a problem. I had it in BC, and it was not a problem. I had it in Lich King and it was amazing, no kind of problem. I had it in Cata and it was only a problem in the final tier, and even then not by much. And now in MoP suddenly it's an issue?
    Energy regeneration did not scale with haste (not directly at least--combat potency did), in vanilla, bc, and wrath.

    AR is worse in MoP than it was in cata also because they changed the way it stacked.

    In cata, AR stacked ADDITIVELY with vitality, then multiplicatively with haste and baseline regen. In MoP it all stacks multiplicatively.

    At 0 haste in cata you had 12.5 energy/sec outside of AR, and 22.5 energy during AR.
    In MoP you have 12 energy/sec outside of AR and 24 energy/sec during AR. The problem is worse now by virtue of that. Add in the fact that secondary stats have double stat value from gemming (but the itemization budget of sockets is 80 agi and 80 of a secondary stat--so gemming secondary stats either purely or via hybrid gemming increases your stat amount), which further compounds the haste amount. My rogue in ToT NORMAL gear has more haste (as a percentage) than he did in nearly full heroic DS gear at 85 (I was at 407 ilevel at the end of cata). The cumulative result of these MoP changes leads to haste spiraling out of control for combat.

    I like AR in concept (that concept being that it increases generator and finisher damage indirectly through frequency), it's just that the implementation is antiquated. Changing it to just increasing combo point generator damage and doubling combo point generation will have the net same effect on the gameplay (ie, how it interacts with restless blades) without causing an increase in the pacing.

    I find the pacing of combat to be pretty close to ideal when not during cooldowns.

    I just find combat's cooldowns so strenuous to play to get the most out of that I actually HATE the cooldowns and I'm generally glad they're over when they are so I can slow down to the normal relaxing between-cd pace of the spec. Something is seriously wrong with gameplay when one feels compelled to look forward to the END of your burst cd.
    Last edited by shadowboy; 2013-07-13 at 06:28 PM.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Warstar View Post
    In SoO people are going to have even more haste than they do now. Even without the t15 bonus you can energy cap especially during a bloodlust.

    So in adrenaline rush you get more finishers the way it is now? Cool. What if adrenaline rush did a flat damage increase which causes every one of your attacks to hit harder? Melee/main gauche which is the rogues top damage. Poisons. Sinister strike. And has the added benefit of not capping energy ever. I'm sure with a little bit of math turning AR into a damage increase vs energy regen the numbers could be tuned so that it's the same damage increase just without energy capping which is a dps decrease. Hell, if you're worried about the amount of finishers you can get during adrenaline rush you could just fill up anticipation with 10 charges, pop ar and then you have 2 finishers back to back which you can pop with a higher damage for better burst. It would make combat more viable in pvp that's for sure.

    Personally I just don't think you understand how math works.
    You a little sore because I pewpew'd your glyph idea? Anyway back on topic.

    First off you clearly didn't read my post as I mentioned needing to fill the gap on the finishers lost would most likely result in an OP cd on a short cd. Not to mention you can't quantify how many finishers you get per AR, low ilvl will have less finishers vs high ilvl. How do you balance that?

    As for energy capping? Have you played combat on the ptr or without the 4set? You don't cap outside of lust and sure it becomes tight during but. No one said it was going to be easy. Also cause you clearly have a problem understanding the basic concept of rogues, that energy capping is not a dps loss, only a potential dps loss. You don't hit 100% energy and suddenly lose 10k dps. You just lose the potential to gain dps, and we are talking silly litle % here.

    And basically it comes down to being able to make the most of the situation and that often sorts the men from the boys.

    P.s. I would hope you have 10 cp saved before going in to AR as it is.

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