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  1. #21
    They gave up on keeping the 3 specs competitive.
    The same way MM is shitty for pve, SV is for pvp, u just have 2 specs to choose. If they even cared a little about SV pvp they would give the Silencing Shot baseline to SV too, and even other things.
    About SV pvp there are tweet posts that they really gave up, probably the same is going for MM pve.
    That’s what I do, Zoggosh. I think good.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Thamyor View Post
    They gave up on keeping the 3 specs competitive.
    The same way MM is shitty for pve, SV is for pvp, u just have 2 specs to choose. If they even cared a little about SV pvp they would give the Silencing Shot baseline to SV too, and even other things.
    About SV pvp there are tweet posts that they really gave up, probably the same is going for MM pve.
    From all the Hunter specs i liked MM the most (PVE) but since Mop its just almost unplayable and a few things that require really not that much of a work can make the spec shine and actually amazing its just that blizzard dosen't really care if you're a Hunter, at least thats how they made some of us feel..

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by PuppetShowJustice View Post
    I kind of assumed "things like Kill Command" to mean exactly what it says. Explosive Shot and Chimera should qualify.
    I feel a little better after reading your post. *Still waits patiently.*

  4. #24
    Mechagnome Littlepinch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redrobin3 View Post
    I don't understand where people think that MM deals 30-40k less dps or enough to not be worth using at all. You aim for about 9.09% haste for 1 second Steadies. This allows you to pile on the aimed shots at above 80% boss hp. If you don't do this then yea dps is going to be severely behind. I'm easily keeping up in dps against so many classes that out gear me by a ton simply by managing focus and maximizing CD's and Chimera shots. For aoe heavy fights yea MM is well behind but taking the thrill of the hunt talent only makes me do about 20k less dps in aoe needed fights.
    I second this ^. Iv been playing MM since BC and im not about to change now, It's my fav spec of the 3 ( I hate bm btw ). I keep up with most unless im outgeard by 15 - 20 ilvs. I find MM the most engaging and fun of the 3 specs.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Littlepinch View Post
    I find MM the most engaging and fun of the 3 specs.
    I agree. I really like MM and I wish it could compete with BM on single target fights, but the sad fact is that it can't. It's a solid 10%+ behind and this should be changed. If blizzard really wanted all 3 specs to be competitive then MM needs some small buffs to bring it more inline. MM has been weak and the least used spec for all of MOP. It's time to change this blizzard! Listen to the community. Numbers really are not that hard to change around to improve MM by 10% or so... There are plenty of ideas on how to do this without making it's burst damage OP in pvp.

  6. #26
    Mechagnome Littlepinch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjeff View Post
    I agree. I really like MM and I wish it could compete with BM on single target fights, but the sad fact is that it can't. It's a solid 10%+ behind and this should be changed. If blizzard really wanted all 3 specs to be competitive then MM needs some small buffs to bring it more inline. MM has been weak and the least used spec for all of MOP. It's time to change this blizzard! Listen to the community. Numbers really are not that hard to change around to improve MM by 10% or so... There are plenty of ideas on how to do this without making it's burst damage OP in pvp.
    I agree oh so much. im waiting for the numbers pass to go through. but 10% behind or not i will be forever MM, and i trust in blizzard to fix us at some point. in the mean time im putting up decent numbers and having a blast playing my fav spec ( in hopes it gets much better !! ).

  7. #27
    The plural of anecdote is not data.
    The people who say you top meters or almost top meters as MM, who are you playing with? Where do you rank vs similarly geared players with your skill level and opposite specs? Because on a Monday in LFR, I could probably top charts naked. When min/maxing is the name of the game, MM doesn't really belong in the discussion regardless of how much dps you can wring out of its lifeless body.

  8. #28
    Mechagnome Littlepinch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zenyatta View Post
    The plural of anecdote is not data.
    The people who say you top meters or almost top meters as MM, who are you playing with? Where do you rank vs similarly geared players with your skill level and opposite specs? Because on a Monday in LFR, I could probably top charts naked. When min/maxing is the name of the game, MM doesn't really belong in the discussion regardless of how much dps you can wring out of its lifeless body.
    sorry but your just trying to pick fights. nowhere did i say i was topping meters. What i did say however is i am fine with the dmg put out by my mm hunter ( even if it is 10% behind the other 2 ) and will continue to play MM because i enjoy it. and im not in a top rated guild. im in a guild of friends and we raid a few times a week for a few hours. we go in to have fun and not for world firsts.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Littlepinch View Post
    sorry but your just trying to pick fights. nowhere did i say i was topping meters. What i did say however is i am fine with the dmg put out by my mm hunter ( even if it is 10% behind the other 2 ) and will continue to play MM because i enjoy it. and im not in a top rated guild. im in a guild of friends and we raid a few times a week for a few hours. we go in to have fun and not for world firsts.
    He isn't, he also added the word "almost". Then your opinion on the matter is generally unimportant if you're going to be happy playing the spec no matter how behind it is.

  10. #30
    Mechagnome Littlepinch's Avatar
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    Sorry i forgot the only answer you wanna hear is. omigerd mm sucks. ill just go back to my cave filled with us lowly mm hunters.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Littlepinch View Post
    i am fine with the dmg put out by my mm hunter ( even if it is 10% behind the other 2 ) and will continue to play MM because i enjoy it. and im not in a top rated guild. im in a guild of friends and we raid a few times a week for a few hours. we go in to have fun and not for world firsts.
    It seems that most of the people who play MM are nostalgic. Either you want to play it because you've always played it, or you play it because it's simply more fun for you. With the tiny bit of difference between the three specs, I'd guess the former. It's one thing to play it despite its weaknesses. It's another thing to be okay with its weaknesses. I've seen this run over time and time again on the forums. People want to be competitive and they have every right to be. They spent the time leveling the character. They are paying the monthly sub to keep things running, just as you have every right to play whatever is fun to you. The problem is, there's no unified argument. You have people over in the red corner saying that "damage sucks," and provide evidence. Then, you have people over in the blue corner that say things like; "the damage is fine," "I beat my 4 friends with it, so it must be okay". What is blizzard's reason for change? How do the developers even gauge how much change needs to happen?

  12. #32
    The Marksmanship design has been a bad one since they created it in Cataclysm. It was a pretty damn simple spec in Wrath of the Lich king (seriously, just Chimera, Aimed, Steady, Arcane on a CD) in the rotation, but people LOVED it. It's been nothing but bad since focus came out and they changed it.

    The rotation is abysmal and just isn't fun. I was sick and tired of the Aimed Shot vs Arcane Shot discrepancies years ago, yet even today it's still here. Casted Aimed Shot is awful, Chimera Shot is so fucking boring for a signature shot that it isn't even funny. It used to do so many cool things and have so much utility attached when it interacted with different stings.

    Choosing Marksmanship doesn't even give you much, at all. You get Chimera Shot and Aimed Shot, and 2 or 3 passives. How is that even considered a spec? 90% of the rotation consists of talents that all 3 specs share, as well as other shared class abilities. The spec needs a total revamp or reversion to how it used to be, and I have a feeling that they'll probably give it some attention next expansion.

  13. #33
    Herald of the Titans Phookah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry01 View Post
    I am not in a top 5 guild but I am in a guild that battles for server firsts and I can tell you unequivocally that the dps of our members matters during that race, it matters a great deal.
    We routinely sit people, bring in subs and alts as needed to make fights easier. Technically you could say dps doesn't matter in a raid because we do not let it come to that, any dps that isn't doing a min of 85% of max do not get into the raid to begin with. So I guess your right, in a skewed way.

    OT: We do not let our hunter play MM that's for sure, (yes we only carry one) maybe 2 fights he goes SV other than that's its BM.
    I don't think you understand what he means. Unless you play to 99%-100% of your classes potential (You don't, unless you're in a top 5-10 world guild anyway generally) that 5% dps difference isn't going to show. Once you have EVERYTHING about your class/spec down to a science (Perfect CD useage, perfect rotation with no mess-ups) THEN you worry about the math that says "This spec is 5% behind".
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis
    Not only is there really nothing to discuss here, this thread is just really bad

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExcelDamage View Post
    Whenever I see discussion of hunter changes, competitiveness, or dps, it only ever seems to cover two things: 1) PvP, and 2) BM

    SV so far as I'm aware, is about on par with BM for PvE DPS, but MM is a lot more behind than it has any right to be.

    Now, I'm not see good with the meta-game, and I've been told various things by different sources, including one source saying that MM just isn't MEANT to be a competitive spec, which is perhaps the most absurd thing I've heared yet.

    Additionally I've been told multiple times to just switch to BM, and while I like the prospect of higher DPS, I shouldn't have to switch my spec to get that. I should be able to play the spec I enjoy, and not have to suffer for it.

    So I'd just like to ask. Why is MM ignored despite its problems?
    First things first: just because the game doesn't get the changes YOU think it needs the MOMENT you think it needs them, doesn't mean the problem is ignored.

    Secondly they probably aren't all over Marksman because, played well, it's a hell of a lot closer to BM and Surv than people give it credit. I joined a friend's raid 2 weeks ago as a BM hunter (they were short a dps and working on heroic kills) and they had another hunter, Marks spec. 529 ilevel, 522 weapon upgraded (Voice) 2/2 to 530.

    On bosses he did incredible dps, was in the top 3 most fights and top 2 on Horridon. He didn't do as well on trash but Blizzard doesn't really balance around trash/AOE dps unless the disparity is just absurd (5.0/5.1 Surv vs. BM, for example). But on bosses? This guy blew sh** up. He actually takes pride in the fact that he does so well with what is currently the 'ewww' stigma'd spec of hunters.

    Obviously that's one hunter in a sea of hundreds of thousands, but it proved to me that Marksmanship can perform when played well.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    First things first: just because the game doesn't get the changes YOU think it needs the MOMENT you think it needs them, doesn't mean the problem is ignored.

    Secondly they probably aren't all over Marksman because, played well, it's a hell of a lot closer to BM and Surv than people give it credit. I joined a friend's raid 2 weeks ago as a BM hunter (they were short a dps and working on heroic kills) and they had another hunter, Marks spec. 529 ilevel, 522 weapon upgraded (Voice) 2/2 to 530.

    On bosses he did incredible dps, was in the top 3 most fights and top 2 on Horridon. He didn't do as well on trash but Blizzard doesn't really balance around trash/AOE dps unless the disparity is just absurd (5.0/5.1 Surv vs. BM, for example). But on bosses? This guy blew sh** up. He actually takes pride in the fact that he does so well with what is currently the 'ewww' stigma'd spec of hunters.

    Obviously that's one hunter in a sea of hundreds of thousands, but it proved to me that Marksmanship can perform when played well.
    Every class has their proponents and outstanding players. The #1 log right now on Lei Shen 10H is a Guardian Druid, speaking of under-represented specs. But if I'm comparing the top logs of MM and the top logs of BM, considering how few people play MM at a high level, I don't think it's too outrageous. What metrics can you use to determine if classes are balanced if people get it in their head that they're bad and don't play them?

    I think the bigger problem is that people just don't like playing MM in PvE, because it feels hacked together. Having to use a major glyph slot so you can cast Aimed Shot on the move is just bad.

  16. #36
    Brewmaster want my Slimjim's Avatar
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    They need to bring back hunter mana.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by hordeslayer View Post
    They need to bring back hunter mana.
    No. Just, no.
    Total redesign on MM, with the spec using aimed shot as filler. Redesign that shitty passive mastery.
    And for those that say they do not care if MM does 1-10-20% less dps than bm/sv, when you guys wipe on a boss at 1%, and think "man, if i was sv/bm, i would have done that extra 1% easily", then you guys will know why no one bothers with mm. Atm i'm raiding mm because my guild has everything on farm, so my dps is compensated by the overgear the rest of the raid has. But on progress? No dice, bring the spec that does the most dmg or no dice.

  18. #38
    Stood in the Fire Conjor's Avatar
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    The only change I think MM really needs is that RF applies SF. Getting those two Steady Shots in early is a pain :O

  19. #39
    First things first: just because the game doesn't get the changes YOU think it needs the MOMENT you think it needs them, doesn't mean the problem is ignored.

    Secondly they probably aren't all over Marksman because, played well, it's a hell of a lot closer to BM and Surv than people give it credit. I joined a friend's raid 2 weeks ago as a BM hunter (they were short a dps and working on heroic kills) and they had another hunter, Marks spec. 529 ilevel, 522 weapon upgraded (Voice) 2/2 to 530.

    On bosses he did incredible dps, was in the top 3 most fights and top 2 on Horridon. He didn't do as well on trash but Blizzard doesn't really balance around trash/AOE dps unless the disparity is just absurd (5.0/5.1 Surv vs. BM, for example). But on bosses? This guy blew sh** up. He actually takes pride in the fact that he does so well with what is currently the 'ewww' stigma'd spec of hunters.

    Obviously that's one hunter in a sea of hundreds of thousands, but it proved to me that Marksmanship can perform when played well.

    Yet again, for like the 100th time... anecdotal evidence is anecdotal....

    I am sure Roger or True or Kenny can take a MM hunter and go to a guild that's still progressing through ToT and top the guilds dps meters...naked. So what? I am trying to not be combative but this is bordering on the insane now.

    How many times do you have to hear that xx hunter topped charts in xx guild run as xx spec so hunters are good, before you will understand that its about the skill of those around you?? Any fool can do top 3 dps when surrounded by drooling monkeys.

    /sigh

  20. #40
    /sigh
    i couldn't even count on my fingers how many times jax has tried to get this through peoples head. it's actually pretty entertaining to watch, but i do feel sorry for the guy


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