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  1. #201
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuel View Post
    So apparently people on the forums only account for a small minority of the playerbase? Well then why on earth did blizz listen to the forum complainers in 4.1 and decide to nerf all the heroics...
    Blizzard didn't need the forums to tell them they screwed up with the 4.1 heroics. Trust me, they would have known that something was up if they had never had forums at all. If you at Blizzard watch your spreadsheets that tell you how many people are logging in, how long they are staying and a general idea of what they're doing, forum noise is the last thing you need to know about with something like the Cataclysm heroics.

    Forums can confirm things but in and of themselves, they're too self-selecting and filled with people who post about what's best for themselves and not what is best for the game overall.
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2013-07-15 at 08:26 PM.
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  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by Hjelpen View Post
    yes, like 1% of the playerbase have been complaining about wow being too casual. the rest is totally fine with it.

    blizzard dont care about some whiners on the offical forum/mmo champ.
    You're right there's a small vocal minority complaining, that's because everyone that found it too casual quit the game, and yeah they're fine.

  3. #203
    The Lightbringer MonsieuRoberts's Avatar
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    WE have been complaining about the gradual simplicity, but there are millions who are more than happy with it.
    "In short, people are idiots who don't really understand anything."

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  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by brunnor View Post
    Leveling that is done in less than 12 hours by anyone is too quick. That's great it takes you a while cause you do other things, but those of us who do this as a primary hobby shouldn't be screwed out of a good experience because you think it takes too long. A bigger appeal doesn't mean a better game. That's the thing a lot of people don't get... just because something is popular doesn't mean it is good and just because something gets done a lot doesn't make it popular.
    I agree that popularity doesn't necessarily equate to quality, but the fact remains that nobody has to do LFR at all. If you don't like it, don't do it, simple. And if people think leveling is too fast, they should stop wearing BoA gear and using every other booster possible. There's plenty of ways to stretch out the experience, without ruining it for the rest of us who don't want it to drag on any longer.

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Games are made for entertainment, and not everyone derives entertainment from the same aspects of a video game.

    Plenty of games on the market cater to what you're referring to, why not just go pick one of those?
    I'm not seeking to make money off of WoW, am I? I already unsubbed from WoW, but that's not making money for Blizzard, is it? Like you said, games are made for entertainment, and to maximize profits Blizzard needs to make the game as entertaining as possible for the most people possible. Most people don't want to play a game that requires them to devote the equivalent of a full time job's worth of hours to churn through its content. That's why Blizzard added conveniences like portals and dungeon finders. I don't understand why anyone would call players who take advantage of conveniences like that "lazy." I'm sorry that I don't want to experience a 15-minute virtual commute inside a game after experiencing a 45-minute commute home from work in real life. That doesn't make me "entitled" or "lazy." That makes me wise with respect to how I allocate my leisure time.

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    Someone doesn't know their MMO history. WoW was bashed, repeatedly, on release for being too casual-friendly by Everquest hardcores, and every step of the way through Wrath, they kept making it increasingly accessible and casual-friendly to go with shifts in the market. Then they listened to disgruntled hardcores and took a gamble with Cataclysm, which blew up in their faces in both the Eastern and Western markets--it wasn't hard enough for Eastern players, who would blast through the content and unsub, and casuals and raiders alike in the Western markets quit en masse over what amounted to a lack of endgame. Right now, the main sources of sub losses are from an unsustainable business model in the East, hence why they're restructuring WoW for China and Korea into a free-play-with-cash-shop game, to compete with the prolific free-play scene over there.
    Do you like picking and choosing what you remember? That seems like how it is to me. They didn't do anything in Cataclysm that was at all like what hardcores asked for besides harder heroics, and even then they weren't hard enough. They lost 300k players during that time. Only 300k players for a bunch of possible reasons left during that time. That was their "failed" experiment, 300k sub loss, which may or may not have been related to the hard heroics.

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by brunnor View Post
    Do you like picking and choosing what you remember? That seems like how it is to me. They didn't do anything in Cataclysm that was at all like what hardcores asked for besides harder heroics, and even then they weren't hard enough. They lost 300k players during that time. Only 300k players for a bunch of possible reasons left during that time. That was their "failed" experiment, 300k sub loss, which may or may not have been related to the hard heroics.
    They released Cataclysm at the end of 2010, so by all rights subscriptions should have temporarily surged, just like they did with MoP. Instead they dropped by 300k, as you pointed out. We don't know why they dropped. Only Blizzard knows that. From their response, however, we can infer that the game's difficulty had something to do with it.

  8. #208
    Ribbon Guru Simca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuel View Post
    So apparently people on the forums only account for a small minority of the playerbase? Well then why on earth did blizz listen to the forum complainers in 4.1 and decide to nerf all the heroics...
    Because the forum complaints increased tenfold (showing a change in who was coming to the forum and for what reason), and the 'traditional' forum crowd was against the nerfs (myself included tbh).
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  9. #209
    Fluffy Kitten Callei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brunnor View Post
    Do you like picking and choosing what you remember? That seems like how it is to me. They didn't do anything in Cataclysm that was at all like what hardcores asked for besides harder heroics, and even then they weren't hard enough. They lost 300k players during that time. Only 300k players for a bunch of possible reasons left during that time. That was their "failed" experiment, 300k sub loss, which may or may not have been related to the hard heroics.
    Cata bled all through its lifespan with the exception of the first quarter 4.3 was out for. Even post-nerf the Cata heroics remained leaps and bounds harder than the Wrath 5-mans, the Zul'Again heroics basically killed LFD for their duration, and the Molten Front failed to keep casual players on. As I said, Blizz specifically name-checked the Heroics as a problematic element, both when they released the easier 4.3 heroics and when discussing the MoP heroics.

    Their failed experiment was hemmorhaging subscribers for nearly the entire lifespan of an expansion, something that was unheard of before, and in MoP Western subs have largely stabilized while they lose a ton of Eastern subscribers to an unsustainable business model. Maybe you should check those news posts on the earnings calls--they point out in specific where most of the losses are coming from and why, and time and time again in Cata post-mortems the 5-mans were pointed out as being a mistake.

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  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by Birkhoff View Post
    "Players rarely argue for less convenience." - Ghostcrawler
    Now hes just downright lying. People have been complaining since vanilla, yes vanilla with the gear available in the 20 man deemed to good vs the gear in 40 man and the special quests in dungeons (dungeon tier 1.5). There was more complaining in TBC with heroic badge gear, etc. Players have been arguing for the middle of vanilla. GC saying players dont complain means hes lying or totally disconnected.

  11. #211
    Herald of the Titans RicardoZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    A small vocal minority has been complaining. The vast majority has not.
    Pretty much, yes. If you count up all of the people who post complaint threads on this site, plus all the ones from battle.net forums, plus bloggers, podcasters, YouTube commentators, etc...you're still barely approaching (and I'm being generous here) the 3% mark in all WoW players.

  12. #212
    Legendary! Anarch Son of Gods's Avatar
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    A huge majority of the playerbase never voice what they like or dislike on any forums anywhere anyway. They never provide feedback and usually when they stop their subscription they don't bother to fill out any elaborate reasons why they stopped either, because they just don't care.

    That is the reality of things.

    Secondly, the small minority on the forums that does say what they like and dislike are often too ignorant to hit with a stick. The truth usually is that consumers are fickle and don't really know what they would enjoy or wouldn't enjoy. Sometimes giving them what they ask for is the worst thing you can do.

    But complaints... for complaints you usually can only depend on your small minority, because the large majority lays forever silent. When people on the forum continuously keep complaining about something it at least gives you a good indication of what your dedicated playerbase experiences. One of the things they need to learn to balance is how to provide content for their dedicated playerbase that doesn't piss off their bigger uncommited casual playerbase and vice versa.
    Last edited by Anarch Son of Gods; 2013-07-15 at 10:14 PM.
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  13. #213
    I think the WoW developers are becoming increasingly conservative in their MMO design philosophy. I sincerely think they regret some of the things they have added to WoW, but know they can't get rid of it now that the genie is out of the bottle.

    Before it was clear that they saw no downside to implementing LFD, LFR, cross realm stuff etc, as they constantly promoted it and got fully behind that philosophy of gameplay design. These days they do acknowledge that there are both advantages and disadvantages to these systems, but they don't really debate the ins and outs of it much (at least publicly), except to say that a lot of players now rely on them and enjoy it.

    As for GC, to me its clear he was a 'MMO novice' when he started and didn't appreciate the qualitative effects of online communities or close knit realms, and still finds it difficult to truly appreciate anything aesthetic as he seems a pretty hardcore numbers guy. I think its only recently that he has begun to really understand the differences between an MMO and an offline single player computer game. This criticism may or may not extend to the rest of the design team, but who really knows.
    Last edited by Faithshield; 2013-07-15 at 10:23 PM.
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  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    A huge majority of the playerbase never voice what they like or dislike on any forums anywhere anyway. They never provide feedback and usually when they stop their subscription they don't bother to fill out any elaborate reasons why they stopped either, because they just don't care.

    That is the reality of things.

    Secondly, the small minority on the forums that does say what they like and dislike are often too ignorant to hit with a stick. The truth usually is that consumers are fickle and don't really know what they would enjoy or wouldn't enjoy. Sometimes giving them what they ask for is the worst thing you can do.

    But complaints... for complaints you usually can only depend on your small minority, because the large majority lays forever silent. When people on the forum continuously keep complaining about something it at least gives you a good indication of what your dedicated playerbase experiences. One of the things they need to learn to balance is how to provide content for their dedicated playerbase that doesn't piss off their bigger uncommited casual playerbase and vice versa.
    Nice post. Sadly the majority of forum posters think of themselves as the majority of WoW players.
    I fully agree that most players don't know what they want but think they do.
    That's what makes the "majority" more volatile than the "minority."

    They think the over casualization of WoW brought it back from the brink of destruction in Cata when dungeons are hard yet we've lost even more subs since then. And they still ignore that fact to this day. Not to mention they had to use tools like the year sub lock and scrolls of resurrections.

    I wouldn't be on here arguing against them if it wasn't for this glaring hypocricy really.

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    A small vocal minority has been complaining. The vast majority has not.
    Same vocal minority that crys for nerfs, remember Cat easy HC dugeons? the vocal manority cried and you were thowned super easy dugeons.

    Remember all those complains about people not seeing countent, and no more pugs?


    I am sure there have been more topics agaist lfd and lfr than in favor of pugs
    Bad - This is a bad player, he refuses to learn how to play correctly.
    Casual - This is a player that will let everything else take priority over wow.
    Hardcore - This is a player that is fine with putting things on hold while he's on wow.
    Bad/Good - Measure of Skill.
    Casual/Hardcore - Measure of Time

  16. #216
    Fluffy Kitten Callei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Etna View Post
    Same vocal minority that crys for nerfs, remember Cat easy HC dugeons? the vocal manority cried and you were thowned super easy dugeons.
    People quit the game en masse and the heroics were specifically name-checked by the CEO at Blizzcon as the main reason they lost casual players. It wasn't just from people whining on the forums like anti-LFD/LFR threads.

    Remember all those complains about people not seeing countent, and no more pugs?
    Ion went on-record that raiding was no longer economically-feasible for the amount of money that went into it versus the amount of people that actually did it at the MoP Press Tour, hence LFR's implementation, and LFD was put in in response to players spending hours pugging for heroics in BC depending on what class they played.

    I am sure there have been more topics agaist lfd and lfr than in favor of pugs
    I'm sure there are. I'm also sure it doesn't matter because Blizzard uses more than just people bitching back and forth for or against something on the forums to gather data.

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  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    People quit the game en masse and the heroics were specifically name-checked by the CEO at Blizzcon as the main reason they lost casual players. It wasn't just from people whining on the forums like anti-LFD/LFR threads.
    The reason was not specifically the heroics. The reason was content difficulty and lack of content.

    Blizzard didnt just make the heroics harder, Blizzard effectively tried to shove players into challenging content without alternatives like normal mode which set it up to fail in the end. Recently GC has been making comments that challenging content is fine as long as there are alternatives which players didnt have with the five man heroics in Cata. As GC has said with Flex mode, you cannot force players to step up but you can try to entice them to do such with rewards.
    Last edited by nekobaka; 2013-07-15 at 10:44 PM.

  18. #218
    Fluffy Kitten Callei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nekobaka View Post
    The reason was not specifically the heroics. The reason was content difficulty and lack of content.
    Morhaime pointed out, when discussing MoP 5-mans, that the Cata heroics bombed hard and that it cost them a lot of casual players. The post-mortems were more specific in that a general lack of endgame and its difficulty cost them people on both sides of the spectrum, hence why MoP released with so much (one could argue, and people certainly have, that it released with too much that felt too required).

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  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    Cata bled all through its lifespan with the exception of the first quarter 4.3 was out for. Even post-nerf the Cata heroics remained leaps and bounds harder than the Wrath 5-mans, the Zul'Again heroics basically killed LFD for their duration, and the Molten Front failed to keep casual players on. As I said, Blizz specifically name-checked the Heroics as a problematic element, both when they released the easier 4.3 heroics and when discussing the MoP heroics.

    Their failed experiment was hemmorhaging subscribers for nearly the entire lifespan of an expansion, something that was unheard of before, and in MoP Western subs have largely stabilized while they lose a ton of Eastern subscribers to an unsustainable business model. Maybe you should check those news posts on the earnings calls--they point out in specific where most of the losses are coming from and why, and time and time again in Cata post-mortems the 5-mans were pointed out as being a mistake.
    Why does it matter where the sub losses come from? The fact that there are massive losses is all that is important. You also have zero idea if western subs are stable at all. You only know what they said in the call, "Majority came from the east." That doesn't mean nothing came from the west. The west could have lost 600k players and their statement would still be correct.

    They point out why they think their losses came about. They also aren't dumb and wouldn't come out and say to their shareholders, "Hey we really fucked this game up and don't know how to fix it now... so keep giving us money." They will word things so very carefully to make it sound like they got a handle on things to keep the money rolling in. So all their data they release with conf calls is highly subjective because it's all them trying to sound good while saying they lost a lot of things.

  20. #220
    Fluffy Kitten Callei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brunnor View Post
    Why does it matter where the sub losses come from? The fact that there are massive losses is all that is important. You also have zero idea if western subs are stable at all. You only know what they said in the call, "Majority came from the east." That doesn't mean nothing came from the west. The west could have lost 600k players and their statement would still be correct.
    Losing subscribers to an unsustainable business model versus losing some imaginary bajillion hardcores are two very different things for a business to address. That's why where the losses come from is important--one requires an altered business model in that market, the other requires a drastic change in game direction.

    They point out why they think their losses came about. They also aren't dumb and wouldn't come out and say to their shareholders, "Hey we really fucked this game up and don't know how to fix it now... so keep giving us money." They will word things so very carefully to make it sound like they got a handle on things to keep the money rolling in. So all their data they release with conf calls is highly subjective because it's all them trying to sound good while saying they lost a lot of things.
    It's also kind of seriously illegal to lie to your shareholders about stuff like that, so the subjectivity of it only goes so far. 'Hey, our business model in the Eastern markets needs a lot of work' is a far cry from 'Hey, people hate our game and we're obstinately refusing to change it according to forum outcry,' and one would think that Blizzard would be smart enough to admit that to their shareholders if nothing else, to put them at ease if they decide to overhaul their design philosophy again like they did in Wrath, Cata, and MoP rather than risk shareholders wondering if their money really is being well-spent.

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