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  1. #441
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    This thread was talking about how players give negative feedback. Someone asked how Blizzard could get that feedback, if not through the forums. I showed how.

    You DO understand the value Blizzard would place on negative feedback, right?
    I do understand the positive side of negative feedback. Negative feedback is at times even better then positive feedback.

    You are though imo, bypassing the negative feedback by saying something preferred and thus it must be what players want! While (as example) LFR in its current form cannot possibly (to my experience, I already said that) be what the players want. But Blizzard feels they do right by its players due to so many players using this.

    The only way they listened a bit was when we had The Nexus 5 man dungeon in WOTLK. It was totally ignored, even when blizzard upped the rewards specifically for that dungeon. But thats apparant because players had a choice in where to go instead. With LFR you cannot escape the braindead experience. But it is still efficient in terms of valor...

    edit:

    I am sorry to me it confirms people are smart when it comes to farming valor/tier pieces efficiently.
    It doesn't remotely say people love the feature whilst playing it.

    Alright one thing I do "love" about LFR is that it is so accessible. I mean as I said, I am currently in a casual guild and I am not raiding normals or heroic like I used to do. I do not have the time anymore. So yeah I love LFR for being accessible. I do not like it to be a braindead experience. If they upped the difficulty slightly (And I do mean slightly) you would not hear me complain at all.

    Also I am not in favour of removing LFR. It has some aspects that work very well for people like me. Just the difficulty that sucks. The experience of LFR is just meh.

    And Blizzard cannot measure that from the numbers of people using this feature.
    Last edited by Vaelorian; 2013-07-17 at 12:38 PM.

  2. #442
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post

    One thing I do blame Street for is making rotations overly complex. Proc and cooldown watching aren't a lot of fun IMO, especially when combined with complicated encounters. Mental decision bandwidth gets overwhelmed.
    Yeah but I welcome the complexity yknow, i think a lot of game designers are going down this trend of over simplicfication lately, when you look at GW2 having less abilities than wow, then you look at how Elder scrolls online has even less, you kinda worry.

    Frankly I think that rotations are fine, they could make them even more complex, I think that 'learning something that actually takes time' in WoW is an experience thats been lost actually since Ghostcrawler, its not too complex at all, I think people need to be careful they're not just being lazy.

  3. #443
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaelorian View Post
    I do understand the positive side of negative feedback. Negative feedback is at times even better then positive feedback.

    You are though imo, bypassing the negative feedback by saying something preferred and thus it must be what players want!
    Well, I would have thought my clarification would have made it clear what I meant. I guess not. I agree people may do something they don't really like if the rewards are there. The breakpoint is somewhere below neutral. Blizzard can still get some data by looking at the shape of the preference curve (how partipation drops off as reward tapers off), but that might be more difficult to measure.

    See also "Hecker's Nightmare" and extrinsic reward in games.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  4. #444
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deepstrider View Post
    You're kidding, right? Or trolling?
    All you've done here is try and force your will onto others. You view the game as yours, and anyone who disagrees with what you want should shut up and go play something else.

    Even the best single-player RPGs end. Nowadays, they end within a month. MMOs don't.
    Really? Look at a lot of the posts regarding LFR, most people do the LFR and quit because they "beat the game" until next expansion/patch, and if you read what you bolded I said OTHER GAMES! And yeah if someone wants a single player game they should go play one because MMOs are NOT single player games.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pancaspe View Post
    Blizzard sees REAL Data and knows what the playerbase likes to do.
    Just because people do things in the game doesn't mean they ENJOY doing it, I do LFR on my alts and did it on my main to valor cap and fill in missing gear spots............and I DESPISE LFR.

  5. #445
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    Let players design the game? Thanks, but no.
    Why not? Look at Team Fortress 2 or Warframe... works quite well.

  6. #446
    What Ghostcrawler says is true in most aspects of life, and to be honest we dont know what we want until we have tried it. And if its something that is convenient we usually dont want to go back regardless how much it hurts the game. Its 1on1 psychology.
    twitch.tv/draahl - Watch me suck at virtually every game!

  7. #447
    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    Really? Look at a lot of the posts regarding LFR, most people do the LFR and quit because they "beat the game" until next expansion/patch, and if you read what you bolded I said OTHER GAMES! And yeah if someone wants a single player game they should go play one because MMOs are NOT single player games.

    Just because people do things in the game doesn't mean they ENJOY doing it, I do LFR on my alts and did it on my main to valor cap and fill in missing gear spots............and I DESPISE LFR.
    Brother come to my arms!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Well, I would have thought my clarification would have made it clear what I meant. I guess not. I agree people may do something they don't really like if the rewards are there. The breakpoint is somewhere below neutral. Blizzard can still get some data by looking at the shape of the preference curve (how partipation drops off as reward tapers off), but that might be more difficult to measure.

    See also "Hecker's Nightmare" and extrinsic reward in games.
    Strangely enough this is exactly what I mean (Heckers Nightmare) and probably what you mean aswell. Tho I might not be able to write it down so nicely.

  8. #448
    Quote Originally Posted by Khanis View Post
    Yeah but I welcome the complexity yknow, i think a lot of game designers are going down this trend of over simplicfication lately, when you look at GW2 having less abilities than wow, then you look at how Elder scrolls online has even less, you kinda worry.
    Also, LoL, right? I think there's a good reason these games are moving in that direction.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  9. #449
    Now come to think of it, someone must have complained about the following 'conveniences'

    1) Being able to quest freely right from the start instead of being locked down for 10 levels all the time in the same area, over and over as a Worgen, Goblin or Pandarean

    2) Gaining other Alliance/Horde city rep when you did some of the main faction's quest (eg doing a Human netted 250 rep for Stormwind and 75 for the rest). Now its capped at 5999/6000 Friendly and you must, I repeat MUST, do their assosciated quest or grind dungeons with a tabard

    I must thank the genius behind these ideas

  10. #450
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Also, LoL, right? I think there's a good reason these games are moving in that direction.
    Well there's a reason yes, I dont think its good though.
    Theyre moving in that direction because gaming as a whole is moving in that direction - simplified to appease a mainstream majority audience. This audience is new to gaming, and eventually this transition will pan out and become deeper again, but it will take some time.

  11. #451
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Also, LoL, right? I think there's a good reason these games are moving in that direction.
    Thank you for that Heckers Nightmare article. Very good read. My apolagies for calling your post ignorant.

  12. #452
    Quote Originally Posted by Pancaspe View Post
    Blizzard sees REAL Data and knows what the playerbase likes to do.
    What I do in game might reflect my preference for various game mechanics, but has absolutely nothing to do with my opinion of what's right / wrong / broken with the game. The fact that I haven't logged in in a month tells Blizzard absolutely nothing. I could be contemplating quitting, or I could be just really busy.

    Anyone who assumes that Blizzard is a savvy game company would also draw the conclusion that they DO read forums. Official ones, unofficial ones, twitter, editorials, etc. They watch YT journals about the game. They rely on verbally given feedback during PTR sessions and on those forums.

    These are all exactly HOW they get feedback from players. If you rely on the unsub questionnaire, it's already a lost battle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    See also "Hecker's Nightmare" and extrinsic reward in games.
    Interesting read.

    WoW isn't the only game this happens to, but I'd submit the notion that there are many subscribers who actually don't enjoy the game at a fundamental level, but find the reward system enticing enough to overlook it. Which is a big part of the reason why there's always such a push for faster / QOL / less effort.
    Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion

  13. #453
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    A small vocal minority has been complaining. The vast majority has not.
    Pretty much this. People really can't seem to grasp that the like... 100k that actually use forums etc are a SERIOUS MINORITY.

    Just another case of a badcore insisting that the game needs to be oh-so-hard because they need to feel oh-so-special.
    I am American mentally, with Japanese tendencies.

  14. #454
    Quote Originally Posted by xsublymonalx View Post
    Pretty much this. People really can't seem to grasp that the like... 100k that actually use forums etc are a SERIOUS MINORITY.

    Just another case of a badcore insisting that the game needs to be oh-so-hard because they need to feel oh-so-special.
    Should read the rest of the thread, its explained this is a wrong assumption.

  15. #455
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaelorian View Post
    Thank you for that Heckers Nightmare article.
    You're welcome!
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  16. #456
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    Quote Originally Posted by xsublymonalx View Post
    Pretty much this. People really can't seem to grasp that the like... 100k that actually use forums etc are a SERIOUS MINORITY.

    Just another case of a badcore insisting that the game needs to be oh-so-hard because they need to feel oh-so-special.
    Again yeah people who use the forums (Whether to blow sunshine and rainbows up Blizzards ass or the ones who aren't afraid to speak out on things we find wrong with the game yet also praise the good they do) are the minority of the players a good MAJORITY have already left silently and many more might be considering leaving silently.

    So don't blow off the "minority" of people who speak about the wrong in this game because the MAJORITY who leave silently may share our views too, and if people keep leaving silently in the volumes that they have the past 2 expansions the game you like to blow sunshine and rainbows up the developers ass may no longer exist!

  17. #457
    I do not think the developers listen to the players very well and often times dismiss them. I mean even when you point out the WoWprogress numbers all you get is a, "those numbers are wrong and it's not our job to debug them comment." I do know they have more data then us but when they start to say things like raiding is doing great and there's no problem, you have to question that.

    My biggest hope is after this next patch the talk gets serious about what's wrong with this expansion. I have to think that after this expansion they will start to replace some people that maybe have run out of ideas and can no longer see anything but their own vision of the game.

  18. #458
    Quote Originally Posted by xsublymonalx View Post
    Pretty much this. People really can't seem to grasp that the like... 100k that actually use forums etc are a SERIOUS MINORITY.
    So in your mind, polling has no validity?
    Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion

  19. #459
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaelorian View Post
    Should read the rest of the thread, its explained this is a wrong assumption.
    Unless we have more data to go on we can't also assume people dislike LFR either. Both examples need to be provided. I for one quite like LFR some of the fights are still very fun (as a tank it must be said its my only POV). For a lot of people LFR will be their first and only experience of raiding. I feel the problem with LFR is the people who wanted the ease of LFR but wanted a slightly higher difficulty. We must remember the players here on this very forum are a minority the ones you meet in game are also a small portion of the people running these LFR raids as well. We'd need a far larger pool of data to go by and frankly blizzard does not provide it to us so we can only guess =[

    Flex should help address this imo. The jump between LFR and Normal in terms of difficulty is hilarious. An in between difficulty is needed.

  20. #460
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    A small vocal minority has been complaining. The vast majority has not.
    Bingo. We are not the majority.

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