I am hoping frost gets some more buffs, and fire does get hit with the nerf bat so they're both on the same level.
and yeh, I'm also looking forward to fire nerfs. praying for huge ones so i dont have to play fire at all on progression this xpac.
Here's a video of the icicles effect:
Guild master of <Overestimated> of Ravencrest-EU
First off, the positive: The new effect is cute and paves the way for all sorts of silly glyphs to modify the icicles
Based on initial napkin math, the new mastery is weaker than the old mastery, so haste is definitely still the priority. Shifting more damage to frostbolt/water ele from ice lance/ffb means that going over the crit soft cap is a little less problematic than before but still to be avoided. This really does nothing to adjust our scaling issues, so hopefully they buff the value of mastery. When the number tuning is finalized, if they don't increase mastery to at least 2% per point or make another fundamental change to mitigate frost's soft cap affinity, the only way it would be competitive is to increase base damage/sp scaling of everything. This would pretty much make frost the go-to spec at the start of the patch, as it would have to start higher to end competitive with the way arcane and fire scale right now. That's assuming they care about it as a PVE spec at all these days. They could have it just start mediocre and fall right off the cliff from there.
Frost has easily attainable soft/hard caps on hit, crit, haste, and even intellect (through shatter cap, though that is relatively negligible) and they nerfed mastery (though really not by that much). To say it's a placeholder is one thing, but they actively moved the scaling to 1.5% from 2% per point and nerfed the only stat that wasn't bumping up to a cap. I'd rather have a placeholder on the visual and know our concerns are actually being addressed.
Even if I did 100 tests with my fire mage, I'd still see some opening bursts of 250k and some of 400k due to RNG. Therefore, the right thing to do is to calculate the average damage without RNG factors, not test it on dummies and estimate a good result after 3 fights.
Flip a coin 10 times. There's a likely chance that it'll land on heads 3 times and tails 7 times. Flip a coin 10,000 times. The likelyhood for it to land on heads fewer than 3000 times (or fewer) is EXTREMELY unlikely. That's why testing something once or twice is generally a bad idea.
- - - Updated - - -
I mean yeah the tests aren't 100% showing what frost/arcane do, but it's a slight indication of what to expect. I stopped testing because I really just want sims to come out and someone to do the math, I'm not going and reforging this stat to test this this and this..too much work D:
I must have read the points / rating wrong somehow, so my calculations from yesterday were way optimistic. On the PTR, you need 400 mastery rating for 1% of Icicle damage. My assumption was that you needed 200 mastery for 1% (it's 300 mastery on live for Frostburn). It definitely needs a buff or it's going to be a PvE nerf in my opinion. Doing a really quick test on a dummy on the PTR shows that I only did 10% of my damage through Icicles. I should be around 20% to be viable.
I feel Ice Lance should also generate them. Would be also cool to have a 1 Min CD spell that launched all your current icicles at all targets (so each one cleaved off to more missiles like Glyph of Ice Lance) to make up for them not affecting cleave/AoE/Bomb.
Did a short test on the PTR, just moments ago. Stats are 15170 haste rating, 4137 crit (20.68%), 6581 mastery (38.45%). Spellpower at 31,755 if you want to know. No CDs, not using lvl 90 talent. Gear same as Live, obviously test without the OMGOPTRINKETS and T16 bonuses.
DPS-ed boss dummy till oom (until unable to cast frostbolt, obviously this varies because of BF and FoF procs). I wait a couple of minutes in between tests to reset the trinket PPMs. It is also worth noting that I hit a FoF proc instead of hitting Lance on 5 icicles.
Ended at 118,583 dps. Avg Icicle = 16063.69
Ended at 122,591 dps. Avg Icicle = 15905.81
I edited this out because I wanted to re-do the test, as I had too many FfBs and Lances in this test. Then, apparently when I went back to live values after crit test, I had LESS mastery % than above. Chances are that the Amp trink is buggy (I used it before this test). Too lazy to do a re-do.
1: 122,489 dps
2: 131,003 dps
The next 3 tests are done with Crit over Mastery, previous was Mastery > Crit. Same Gear. Therefore, 6334 crit rating (24.34%), 4384 mastery rating (22.96%). These tests were done to check stat priority (Obviously, Haste still tops).
Ended at 123,797 dps. Avg Icicle = 13485.67
Ended at 123,761 dps. Avg Icicle = 12670.55
Ended at 120,161 dps. Avg Icicle = 12983.66
This test may be more consistent without trinkets. It would be nice to have someone else to do it, as I don't have the time to do it at the moment. The next time I do tests I'll make sure the rating %s are similar to Live. And then test a pure Mastery build (Gem Mastery).
Last edited by Jin84; 2013-07-19 at 08:56 AM.
Not sure why my tests with heavy mastery with frost armour came out doing so well. Hm idk.
I tested in my live gear arcane and frost...and frost came out on top.
Then I tested with the t16 gear and op trinks.
Last edited by Vynestra; 2013-07-19 at 08:40 AM.
So official patch notes state
Is this perhaps the intended design? or did they change it just before current PTR build was pushed to the servers.Casting Ice Lance launches all stored Icicles at the target
Continuing from this post. Ok, I got off my butt and re-did the 3 tests.
Stats: 15170 Haste rating, 3795 crit rating (20.11%), 6923 Mastery rating (29.31%). I try to keep the tests consistent by keeping the spellcast counts close to each test.
Ended at 129,392 dps. Avg Icicle dmg = 16025.39
Ended at 137,301 dps. Avg Icicle dmg = 17588.62
Ended at 122,789 dps. Avg Icicle dmg = 16297.06
Live (taken from prev post):
1: 122,489 dps
2: 131,003 dps
Stats: 9482 haste rating (22.31%), 3795 crit rating (20.11%), 15611 mastery rating (51.03%). Same gear, with pure Mastery gems, and Mastery > Haste > Crit priority and with Mastery armor(Mage Armor).
Purpose of this test is for pure mastery. I'm doing stat weighting without any sims. Bomb same as previous tests: NT.
Ended at 118,278 dps. Avg Icicle dmg = 27481.74
... I think this one test says a lot about it.
For pure DPS tests, I prefer setting a time limit and then just doing damage for that duration instead of trying to go for a fixed number of casts. If you go for a fixed number of casts and you reforge all your haste into mastery, it's going to make the mastery damage look better, but it will have taken you a lot longer to do the same damage, so it's probably going to be a DPS loss.
Right now I feel I shouldn't have done any calculations yesterday based on (bad) guesses about how mastery rating would scale. I got it completely wrong and I might be partly to blame for some people thinking that it might actually make sense on the PTR to reforge or gem mastery over haste. As far as I can tell, mastery is worse than ever for PvE on the PTR.
I'm not sure there is any point doing tests like this yet. The whole frost spec will undoubtedly change a lot over the coming weeks. I wouldnt be surprised if the build blizzard is testing at the moment (usually 1-2 in front of the ptr build) has already changed the mastery somewhat.
I can't imagine them going live with mastery worse than it is for PVE currently, although look at what they did to fire from 4.3 to 5.x, so i guess anything is possible. Hopefully they read the threads in the PTR forum, the official mage forum and this forum and figure out how to tweak it to make it better.