Competitiveness

[Biomega]

It could be, you are just not willing to accept that.

Not in any realistic, feasible way. No way no how. You're just throwing wild hypotheticals out there with nothing to back them up. These activities are so vastly different there is absolutely no way to make them equivalent in any workable way whatsoever.

And at this point it is useless to continue to debate with you.

"I don't know how to refute these points so I'm just removing my burden of rebuttal by pretending the problem is on the other side."

Never seen THAT before on here, mmmmmhhmmmmm

[schmonz]

"I don't know how to refute these points so I'm just removing my burden of rebuttal by pretending the problem is on the other side."

Never seen THAT before on here, mmmmmhhmmmmm

Whatever you believe to be true. Have a nice evening.

[Biomega]

Whatever you believe to be true. Have a nice evening.

Aaaaand for this evening's fight... In the riiiight corner.... half a page of structured replies and counterarguments! And in the lleeeft corner... "you are just biased, I shall no longer discuss this good day sir"!

Aaaaand the winner issss....?!

Whew.

Tough match.

[jeezusisacasual]

You seem to mixup immersion with novelty. I talk about immersive class design instead of balanced class design. I talk about op specs in a regard, which would be immersive as well. A priest being the jack of all trades in healing. The druid the best hot healer. The paladin being a passive mitigation tank. The shaman being a melee who could chose between a shield or two one hand weapons for sustained damage or a large twohander staff for burst.. all that would be way better than 10 classes all having the priority list of same things to do. A mmorpg should not be built upon balance just to enable competition. It should be about the class fantasy, and gear should also not be about stat balance but about giving class features rather than just doing a +10 strengh buff.

The best RPGs are those where gear completely changes your gameplay. And you could switch gear sets which allow different gameplay and even playstyles.

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I believe it needs exactly that. An explorerer should be as much rewarded for exploring as a champion should be rewarded for running a lot of raids. I just think the gear from different progression pathes should not be useful in other gameplay other than being catchup gear. As like if you are a vivid explorer and do all the tasks which are involved with that, you should have ilevel 450 as like a raider that did all tasks involved in raids. But both progression pathes would be distinct, so explorer gear would only be the most powerful in explorer content, while raid gear would only be the most powerful in raid content.

As like we have pvp and pve gear now, we would have different versions of pve gear.

I tend to think what you want is a sandbox game with more factors like a battle royale / MOBA hybrid but a living world of sorts. The problem with that is no game more so WoW can accomplish that while also allowing people a peak behind the curtains with addons and the API. Also you would have to remove the ability for people to Meta game the shit out of it. Even FF14 which goes hard against addons and dps tracking tools has the same problem with trying to limit information which is a battle that seriously can not be won not in todays age of information. Sure i would enjoy some wonder brought back and some less hyper idea that if you are not the best you might as well be a bucket of piss but sadly its the world we live in and nothing can bring us back to those simpler times.

[Merpish]

I tend to think what you want is a sandbox game with more factors like a battle royale / MOBA hybrid but a living world of sorts. The problem with that is no game more so WoW can accomplish that while also allowing people a peak behind the curtains with addons and the API. Also you would have to remove the ability for people to Meta game the shit out of it. Even FF14 which goes hard against addons and dps tracking tools has the same problem with trying to limit information which is a battle that seriously can not be won not in todays age of information. Sure i would enjoy some wonder brought back and some less hyper idea that if you are not the best you might as well be a bucket of piss but sadly its the world we live in and nothing can bring us back to those simpler times.

As it turns out, people crave information that helps them improve and be more efficient at achieving their goals. It's always been this way as well, we just now have the tools/compute power to be better at it.

[Relapses]

As it turns out, people crave information that helps them improve and be more efficient at achieving their goals. It's always been this way as well, we just now have the tools/compute power to be better at it.

I think a non-insignificant portion of the people who are part of the "reject modernity" sect not only want WoW to be simpler, they want it to be 2008 again.

[SilverLion]

I think a non-insignificant portion of the people who are part of the "reject modernity" sect not only want WoW to be simpler, they want it to be 2008 again.

2008, slurs are cool, and they've got street cred for raiding in World of Warcraft.

[AudibleEscalation]

I think a non-insignificant portion of the people who are part of the "reject modernity" sect not only want WoW to be simpler, they want it to be 2008 again.

My guild used to be top 100 on my server back then, so I have relevant insights about competitive raiding

[schmonz]

Aaaaand for this evening's fight... In the riiiight corner.... half a page of structured replies and counterarguments! And in the lleeeft corner... "you are just biased, I shall no longer discuss this good day sir"!

Aaaaand the winner issss....?!

Whew.

Tough match.

Well, the thing is that your tactic is to simply repeat the same arguments over and over, and if you are corrected simply ignore it. So it is just useless to continue to debate with you, as you keep repeating the same statements over and over. The only achievement you will have is that people will stop debating with you at some point. As i did in this thread. And no, that will not "win" you a debate, no matter how much you want to.

If you want to continue to debate, try to include the answers you read before to your responses. Do not ingore that "Explorer" is a label for a complete playstyle, based on Bartles studies, do not frame it as "mythic epics for wandering through the world" just to get an argument going. If you master that we might continue to debate.

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I tend to think what you want is a sandbox game with more factors like a battle royale / MOBA hybrid but a living world of sorts.

Yeah, i want a living world, but surely not a sandbox. I want no moba gameplay in World of Warcraft, but a typical themepark mmorpg with progressive gameplay. I want a world as we had it in D3, with different difficulties. Means, you have normal difficulty, nightmare difficulty, hell difficulty and a lot of additional difficulty levels. To solve group bloat you could instance or phase gameplay.

The problem with that is no game more so WoW can accomplish that while also allowing people a peak behind the curtains with addons and the API. Also you would have to remove the ability for people to Meta game the shit out of it. Even FF14 which goes hard against addons and dps tracking tools has the same problem with trying to limit information which is a battle that seriously can not be won not in todays age of information. Sure i would enjoy some wonder brought back and some less hyper idea that if you are not the best you might as well be a bucket of piss but sadly its the world we live in and nothing can bring us back to those simpler times.

I think we should get back to the times the world matters, it is less about simplicity, but more about having progressive gameplay for everyone. I laid out my ideas to biomega before he repeated the same arguments and accused me on wanting to give mythic raid gear to players that found an egg in a birds nest.

[Lordofbelbol]

I don't think people understand your sentiment seeing how they're so brainwashed by the zoomer gogo spend eternity in the m+ dungeon afking in Valdrakken game loop.
I'd rather feel alive in the world than dragonflap around feeling that the presence of enemy players make me not even desire to attack them, it's sad really.

It's amazing how you people feel the need to attack others who enjoy a different gameplay

My whole roaster of people i play with regularly 10-15 people ( sometimes even more ) i have never met someone who give the game that much thought/energy when it comes to other people and what they like, i mean they only talk about it in discord sometimes definitely not going into forums and criticising people. Discussing those issues deeply online with randoms feels like a waste of time and delving into delusional thoughts.

We just play the game, some like to push m+, some like to raid or pvp, some like to level alts, why give the game so much energy as what should and shouldn't happen ? it feels like people who do this are empty inside and nothing to do with their lives

[Merpish]

It's amazing how you people feel the need to attack others who enjoy a different gameplay

They are deeply unhappy people, and are upset other people are not equally as unhappy and miserable as they are.

[Echo of Soul]

Does catering to the competitiveness of endgame players come at the expense of the game world immersion?
They make it seem like everything is about numbers and being the best with no regard to the fantasy or the RPG aspect. Anything with flavour is discarded for optimal gameplay.

What i'd suggest is to introduce max level servers for competetive players, which will focus solely on endgame content like raiding and PvPing, so that min/maxers wouldn't have such an impact on the features of this game.

I always thought that pristine servers were a good idea. Have one type of server where the sweats could play and then another for everyone else with single difficulties of raids and dungeons where group content was about including people instead of excluding them.

[username993720]

I always thought that pristine servers were a good idea. Have one type of server where the sweats could play and then another for everyone else with single difficulties of raids and dungeons where group content was about including people instead of excluding them.

Yep.
Basically, you can either have max lv servers for those who want to skip it all or have several difficulty servers for the game: easy, normal and hard.

[Merpish]

I always thought that pristine servers were a good idea. Have one type of server where the sweats could play and then another for everyone else with single difficulties of raids and dungeons where group content was about including people instead of excluding them.

If you think that there wouldn't be "sweats" on those kinds of servers, you are dead wrong. This is just how games are played now. Sorry.

[jeezusisacasual]

If you think that there wouldn't be "sweats" on those kinds of servers, you are dead wrong. This is just how games are played now. Sorry.

Ya this is just the state of gaming in todays world. Look at how min/max focused classic guilds had became when it never required that but if it gave an edge you would be the moron who refused better help its akin to seeing money on the ground and ignoring it.

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Well, the thing is that your tactic is to simply repeat the same arguments over and over, and if you are corrected simply ignore it. So it is just useless to continue to debate with you, as you keep repeating the same statements over and over. The only achievement you will have is that people will stop debating with you at some point. As i did in this thread. And no, that will not "win" you a debate, no matter how much you want to.

If you want to continue to debate, try to include the answers you read before to your responses. Do not ingore that "Explorer" is a label for a complete playstyle, based on Bartles studies, do not frame it as "mythic epics for wandering through the world" just to get an argument going. If you master that we might continue to debate.

- - - Updated - - -



Yeah, i want a living world, but surely not a sandbox. I want no moba gameplay in World of Warcraft, but a typical themepark mmorpg with progressive gameplay. I want a world as we had it in D3, with different difficulties. Means, you have normal difficulty, nightmare difficulty, hell difficulty and a lot of additional difficulty levels. To solve group bloat you could instance or phase gameplay.



I think we should get back to the times the world matters, it is less about simplicity, but more about having progressive gameplay for everyone. I laid out my ideas to biomega before he repeated the same arguments and accused me on wanting to give mythic raid gear to players that found an egg in a birds nest.

I think your ask is to big for WoW honestly, while it would interesting to see WoW take a turn like that i feel as if they are currently on an assembly line style production with smallish tweaks here and there.