10man vs 25man SoO

[Zanzha]

Ptr is ptr and things can change.

However the damage thing, I don't really see anything new here, Fist smash on iron qon does 5k extra per tick, Nuclear inferno on consorts 15k per tick, Dire call on horridon 20k, to name but a few. However it makes an awful lot of sense partly due to the much large number of smartheals being flung around, which is somewhat similar to the reasoning behind the higher tank damage if I recall. It's worth noting that the differences in numbers aren't large and are most likely to make up for the extra healer per person It's just something that makes sense. However to avoid major balancing issues, when the damage taken seems to exceed a certain value and is intended to put a strain on the healers as well as how the mechanic is handled, eg Interrupting jolt / Thunderstruck, the damage numbers are the same.

As to the gear thing, especially the HC TF comparative to other 10 mans I didn't really notice it making that large of a difference until everything was on farm, Iirc i only had two hc tf items on killing ra den. However that's simply that once everything is on farm the gear flow increases regardless of size, as well as the guaranteed drops off ra den start getting factored in. However It is worth mentioning that I understand the difficulty 10 man's have when it comes to disenchanting gear as a friends 10 man has reported 3 cloak drops between their 2 kills of ra den, which sucks to no end. I think that there should be some sort of safety net put in place, what that would be I don't know.

Again however though, that isn't to say 25 doesn't suffer from problems too, there are plenty of items that have gone to waste, less so on progress until reaching say the last half ? where people are starting to aim for there best in slots. But one of our two rogues on the roster is still using a normal lei shi dagger, and on our first kill of lei shen we had to disenchant atleast 3 possibly 4 items as they were just worthless. Yet I can see the point already forming in which getting a major upgrade in a 10 man can often lead to a larger impact than one person getting an upgrade in 25, which is an entirely valid point. Just that RNG is RNG and it can kick 25's in the backside too sometimes.

Anyways, the 10/25 debate I still think is somewhat pointless, the modes are different, and mostly comes down to personal preference. Nothing will change that, atleast this time blizzard have realized the two cannot be perfectly balenced and are offering different feats of strength / achieves.

[Floopa]

this has been debated already.

25mans have a higher ilvl than 10mans and the fights are tuned for it.

http://www.wowprogress.com/guild_ilvl JK 10 man guild with highest ilvl.

Grats on saying random stuff you have no clue about.

[Vereesa]

http://www.wowprogress.com/guild_ilvl JK 10 man guild with highest ilvl.

Grats on saying random stuff you have no clue about.

If you're going to call people out for being clueless, at least have a clue yourself. Envy is not a 10-man guild. (or at the very least the vast majority of their gear has come from 25-man raiding)

OT: Numbers aren't tuned yet and even then comparing damage numbers between the two modes is largely redundant because of the plethora of differences between the two.

[Aceshigh]

http://www.wowprogress.com/guild_ilvl JK 10 man guild with highest ilvl.

Grats on saying random stuff you have no clue about.

Grats on thinking Envy raided 10 man this tier. Before callling people out you MIGHT wanna make sure you don't look like a jackass first.

This whole 10 v. 25 debate, it's the deaddedest (let that sink in!) horse there is. It was Mercy killed years ago.

[Deleted]

Damage of abilities in 25man, as well as relative health pools of adds and bosses have always been higher, hence why many 25m guilds killed rag hc on 10man way before they did so on 25, because the add hp difference allowed 1 person to kill 2 adds, while you needed 2-3 to kill 1 add on 25, resulting in adds being down faster= less chance on the 2nd meteor to spawn= last phase was considerably easyer.

Besides, 10man is build around the wrong asumption that you dont have every relevant (de)buff, hence why tank dmg is halved and hps and dps number requirement, per person, are way lower then the 25man ones. Allowing ppl to cheese mechanics, domo hc solo tanking scythe 1 more time, full dps gear dk tank on ultraxion, being kept up by a single hpala, turning a 2/2/6 into a 0/1/9. The current Dark animus heroic zerg tactic has a 60k dps per person lower requirement in 10man then it has in 25.

Several bosses that have a "does more dmg the longer the fight lasts" mechanic also were 1st killed 30 sec faster then the 25man versions, that were actual dps races and close to enrage kills.

One of our members (lock now, used to play prot pala) started in 10man and was suprised by the tank dmg on bosses in 25 on the same difficulty (heroic compared to heroic, comparing raid sizes is done in the rest of the topic), and i recall him saying "i actually need to use cooldowns here"

Number wise, 10mans require you to perform less then 25mans, altho you are more likely to be targeted by random abilities.

Besides the pure game side requirements, 25 also puts more requirements on your own pc, as it has to work with more spell effects, combat log entries and what not, before i bought a new pc i had to play on "fair" graphics in DS 25 to avoid lagging, while i could set them to "good" in 10man alt raids and had no lag @ all.

Add the fact that it is easyer to organize 10 ppl then it is to organize 25, and you need little explaination why the number of 25man guilds are declining as loads chose the path of least resistance.

About the gear thing, thunderforged items have a 1% chance per person to drop, 10mans= 10% TF, 25mans= 25%, which equals out because a single TF drop boosts the raids ilvl more in 10man then it does in 25man.

Only fair they seperate the FoS for 10 and 25man (not the actual achievements as they are merged) so that guilds get credit for a realm 1st heroic clear (in that raidsize), as 10man and 25balance in this game is nothing more then a druid spec and variations thereof.

This is the best post i read for awhile. Good read.

[Deleted]

I just want to point out that the 'Guild ilvl' rankings are wrong.

For a start, Envy is 25

We are also 25man (Not So Serious)

The Russian guild is 25 (To view this, click their name, and click View Raid on raden f.ex)

Legends Never Die - 25

Infact, there is only one 10 man guild on that page, Accidentally.

[Deleted]

in 25man mode healers do more healing aswell so its normal they do more dmg that would make it easy 25m on a 10man boss fight

[KaPe]

Infact, there is only one 10 man guild on that page, Accidentally.

That's 25 man, too - think they went 10 man just for RF or something.

Either way, it's nothing new here, boss abilities did more damage in 25 man raids for a long time. Usually, it doesn't really matter, unless 10% more damage means the difference between getting one shotted and surviving at 10k hp. Say, something like Interrupting Jolt or Empress back in T14. In those cases, higher ilvl doesn't help nearly as much as it should and it can be annoying to deal with more damage.

Granted, there are two specific cases where this helps 10 man - solo tanking and zerging. Higher tank damage in 25 man means that solo tanking is often harder, plus it doesn't really help that much dps wise. As for zerging - Dark Animus is the perfect example.

Other than that - it's been like that for a while and it doesn't matter.

[Deleted]

Some actual numbers in regards to average itemlvl:

Top 10 25-man guilds in ToT:

1	Method	Item Level: 550.19	Rank: 5
2	Blood Legion	Item Level: 550.67	Rank: 2
3	Экзорсус	Item Level: 550.40	Rank: 3
4	Midwinter	Item Level: 549.57	Rank: 13
5	Exodus	stopped raiding
6	Envy	Item Level: 550.78	Rank: 1
7	genuine	Item Level: 549.84	Rank: 7
8	ScrubBusters	Item Level: 549.60	Rank: 10
9	Apex	Item Level: 548.71	Rank: 38
10	Wraith	Item Level: 549.58	Rank: 12

Top 10 10-man guilds in ToT:

1	DREAM Paragon	Item Level: 547.25	Rank: 142
2	Sanitas	Item Level: 548.02	Rank: 86
3	Hordlinge	Item Level: 547.46	Rank: 124
4	Moonz	Item Level: 548.41	Rank: 59
5	КрашТест	is actually a 25-man guild
6	Братство Волков	Item Level: 546.41	Rank: 217
7	Tranq	Item Level: 548.10	Rank: 80
8	Refuge	Item Level: 547.17	Rank: 151
9	Фьюжн	Item Level: 547.72	Rank: 109
10	Nightmare Asylum	Item Level: 545.76	Rank: 209

25-man guilds clearly do have a higher average itemlvl and SoO will have to be balanced accordingly. Otherwise it will be either too easy for 25-man guilds or too hard for 10-man guilds. Especially at the very top.

This will btw lead to even less guilds raiding 25-man because going from 10-man to 25-man will be even harder and going from 25-man to 10-man will be even more rewarding in regards to ranking.

I also suspect top 10-man guilds will lose their spot to some random 25-man guilds who downsized.

PS: If you don't believe that 25-man guilds have an higher average itemlvl, please provide some numbers.

[Deleted]

Well, when healers where buffed for 25m, some ppl said that they will have to make 25m in raid-damage higher. Maybe they where right.

[Deleted]

http://www.wowprogress.com/guild_ilvl JK 10 man guild with highest ilvl.

Grats on saying random stuff you have no clue about.

Worst post EU? The % chance of getting full HC TF off-set as a 10 man raider is scarily low, and will be relevant in SoO tuning. We just saw our first Council trinket after several months, let alone the thunderforged version.

[Zairn]

Same here actually. Fun isn't it?

Just because probabilities say 25-man raids are more likely to get TF loot doesn't mean these guilds will always have a higher average ilvl. In every mode you can loot these, and in every mode you can waste stuff. It's all about randomness, that's it.

I really hate to jump in when I smell blood in the water, but do you understand statistics at all? While randomness is applicable on an individual level, the way things are set up, 25m guilds WILL have an higher ilvl average. That's not debatable. The odds of any given 25m guild not having a higher average ilvl after something like 20 boss kills than a 10m guild is going to be ugly, though I am too lazy to do the math.

Now, whether or not 25m vs 10m encounter design damage takes this into account or not can be had out by yourself and others. I'm not here to make any claims about that. But the fact that 25m guilds are going to have a higher ilvl after any given amount of boss kills beyond a few can be taken as close enough to fact for most intents and purposes.

[KaPe]

I highly doubt ilvl will matter that much for boss tuning. I mean, just look at those numbers, it's ~2-3ilvl difference? Meanwhile, boss abilities usually vary by 10% or so - which is way more than what you get from superior ilvls. Not to mention that boss abilities affect everyone and don't prioritize people with better items. Sure, player X was lucky and got couple Thunderforged items, which makes him comparably stronger than he'd be in 10 man. Except boss' Doom Laser of Doom (tm) happens to target player Y which has normal items and hits him for 10% more damage.

It's always been like that and about the only thing that changed in 5.2 were TFs. However, tying boss tuning to double rng drops seems rather backwards. I'm fully expecting the usual 3 x hp/+10% dmg (more for tanks/special cases) everywhere.

[Aschark]

Damage of abilities in 25man, as well as relative health pools of adds and bosses have always been higher, hence why many 25m guilds killed rag hc on 10man way before they did so on 25, because the add hp difference allowed 1 person to kill 2 adds, while you needed 2-3 to kill 1 add on 25, resulting in adds being down faster= less chance on the 2nd meteor to spawn= last phase was considerably easyer.

Besides, 10man is build around the wrong asumption that you dont have every relevant (de)buff, hence why tank dmg is halved and hps and dps number requirement, per person, are way lower then the 25man ones. Allowing ppl to cheese mechanics, domo hc solo tanking scythe 1 more time, full dps gear dk tank on ultraxion, being kept up by a single hpala, turning a 2/2/6 into a 0/1/9. The current Dark animus heroic zerg tactic has a 60k dps per person lower requirement in 10man then it has in 25.

One of our members (lock now, used to play prot pala) started in 10man and was suprised by the tank dmg on bosses in 25 on the same difficulty (heroic compared to heroic, comparing raid sizes is done in the rest of the topic), and i recall him saying "i actually need to use cooldowns here"

Number wise, 10mans require you to perform less then 25mans, altho you are more likely to be targeted by random abilities.

I'm gonna say two things to this and then no more, because I'm not getting sucked into this debate.

1. The difference between a good tank and a fucking shitty one in 10 man is how much damage they can put out. If you are a good or bad tank in a 10 man, it shows (just like in 10 if you're good or bad in general it shows. I have plenty of 13/13hc friends in 25 man guilds that I know are not that good).

2. When you have 3-4 Skull Banners and/or Stormlashes that you simply don't have in 10 man, those are relevant buffs that good players can and will take heavy advantage of. Additional healing cooldowns and unique cooldowns like mass grip or gateway make tremendous differences.

Okay fine, one more point. 3. Stop misspelling "easier", it makes your entire argument look like it comes from a retard.

[Deleted]

Anyone trying to say that 25 mans DON'T have a bigger average iLvl are just people in 25 man guilds trying to pretend otherwise; no one is trying to say 25 man is easier which is what some people always seem to take this particular debate to mean.

Twist: I'm in a 25 man heroic guild.

[Deleted]

From what I see on my own server and hear from others, Zonex is absolutely right. My guild is 13/13 and we just barely beat a 25 man guild who was stuck on 7/13 Heroic for a while I think. Now that they're 10/13 Heroic, they just outgear us due to TF items. I personally have 1 Heroic TF item, find me a 25 man 13/13 Heroic raider (and one who has been raiding since the release of ToT as I did), who only has 1 Heroic TF item^^

Without counting Ra-den loots, hello.

[Deleted]

Without counting Ra-den loots, hello.

Well, you must have been very unlucky then. Although, if memory serves me right, you transferred from Apex to Envy, which probably put you lower in the loot queue than other Rogues/Ferals?

Also, just as there's the extremely lucky 10 man raider, there's ofc going to be the extremely unlucky 25 man raider. Guess you won the lottery on that one.

[Deleted]

Yup, that's right. Just found your rhetorical question funny!

[urasim]

I call bullshit on that one. What happens at the beginning of an expansion then, where everyone is the same ilvl from gearing up from 5-man? It would mean that somehow, people raiding 25-man would start the first tier with some huge handicaps because they aren't better geared (which apparently you say they should be, since that's how they deal with the higher damage).

It makes absolutely no sense. You're just trying to find reasons where none are needed.

It's ALWAYS been like that, even way before it became a choice to raid as 10 or 25 man raids. More people means you need more damage to make it challenging. Else you would see 25 man groups with 2 healers or whatever funky setup.

When an expansion starts everyone is on equal footing. It's when you start doing normal raids when the gap starts happening. Saying that 25 mans have it harder because the bosses abilities hit harder is silly. You have more healers per person, so of course they tune it to hit harder. You also have so many more raid cooldowns to save people in 25 man.

A 25 man guild will gear its' members faster than a 10 man guild. There is a better chance that loot in a 25 man guild will not go to waste right away, while there is a good chase that no one will even use the loot from a boss in a 10 man guild. This is due to the fact that you can't take every armor type spec with you to a 10 man raid. The first two bosses in our first vault run didn't give us any loot for people to use. It's so much fun going into a new raid for the first time only to disenchant several pieces of loot.

[Deleted]

I'm not exactly sure that's how things work.

25 man guilds have more chances to get TF loot, but it doesn't necessarily means they are better geared since you can also get TF gear in 10 man. It's pretty much a matter of luck.

More items per person, higher chance of TF + less chance of disenchanting loot = higher average item levels of 25 man guilds. It's not a hunch, it's been supported by WoWprogress throughout the patch. As time goes on the difference levels out, but that doesn't mean there isn't any.

The top 100 guilds sorted by average item level consists of 76 25m guilds, and of the 10m guilds there are some 25s that are listed as 10 for whatever reason. It's been widely documented that there are more 10m guilds than 25. While 25s might be more hardcore (although I doubt that), that does not explain the difference.

I don't really care whether you 'buy it' or not. If you want to ignore factual data, then who am I to deny you that idiocy?