This concerns me a bit. I think as a community we're not doing a very good job bringing our concerns to the devs in a rational, clear-headed, emotion-free manner.Now that we're approaching the end of MoP. What class/classes do you think need a big overhaul in 6.0?
Ghostcrawler: None. We will likely work to make the 3 hunter and rogue specs play a little more differently from each other.
I would like us to put together a good summary and assessment of each mage spec in a concise way and then I will find a way to get the right eyes to read it. In order to do this we need:
- Less in-fighting among spec, let's acknowledge each spec's issues independently and list broad class issues in their own category.
- Numbers when appropriate, not raidbots.
- Volunteers (you guys) to reply to this thread with your take on things.
- More volunteers to help sort through it all and make sure I don't miss anything in my list.
- A positive attitude. Think of the solution, not the problem-- and don't compare one spec to another, or to any other class.
So, to all those who spend countless hours calculating, pontificating, bloviating, elaborating, hyperbolizing, and analyzing, let's come together, whether our hands glow purple, red, or blue, and start to nail down the real concerns. I'll be updating this thread frequently with my own thoughts and the contributions of others.
[Last updated July 27, 18:29]
State of the Mage Class (as seen by the Mage Community) 7/21/2013
Broad Class Concerns & Ideas:
- Same bomb used for all 3 specs diminishes spec variety.
- Why does Living Bomb have a cap? Why doesn't NT? Could all bombs function if they had a target cap of 1, 2, 3, 4?
- Frost bomb doesn't fit the tier and has another niche. DoT trinkets, which so far have been BiS, do not proc it.
- Level 90 talents are providing negative reinforcement, all other problems aside. Devs are aware the community is largely displeased with these talents and they pose a lot of troubles in reward/punish game theory.
- The allure of mage for years was a non-multidot caster. Bombs have transformed the class. If you don't like having a pet, there are two other specs. If you don't like multi-dotting, you're unable to opt out.
- Something to do while moving is a rewarding feeling for doing mechanics properly, but it need not be crucial or optimal for DPS.
- Glyph of Evocation is a necessity for survival.
- AoE for all 3 specs has no clearly defined rotation and is overwhelming for new as well as awkward for experienced raiders. Gray area among cleave, multidot, and AoE.Potential Solutions
- Bombs could have their secondary effect be tied to one's spec for thematic purposes. i.e. Have NT split off into arcane missiles, blizzard chunks, or tears of flame / Living Bomb can explode in an arcane explosion, blastwave, or a frost nova / Frost bomb can be changed to be Arcane bomb, Fire bomb, or Frost bomb
- Frost bomb can detonate multiple times and count as a DoT at very large haste breakpoints and have its explosion count as a DoT, rather than haste reducing the cooldown.
- Mana regeneration can be tied into each spec rather than at a talent-level and add more thematics to it.
- Spec identity and diversity could come with specific resources. Icicles could be a resource for frost, mana for arcane, heat for fire.
- Utility with flavor is desired. A temporal gemstone, works as a HoT to provide to the raid. Standard conjured food could act as a lesser-stat version of buff food, for farm content. Polymorph for a friendly target that protects them briefly from damage and heals them. Give 3 different versions of Arcane/Dalaran Brilliance, only 1 can be up at a time, to buff the raid with mastery, haste, or crit in addition to the spell power buff.
- Water Elemental Cleansing Waters (Healing Rain) / Flamewave (Stormlash equivalent) / Arcane Dimension Door (Demonic Gateway)
Thoughts & Suggestions
- Burn/Conserve model was popular in Cataclysm, but excludes Arcane Barrage if executed today.
- A potential solution to mixing the models it could be a good idea to have weaving options that are situational to conserve mana or to move while maintaining charges. Missiles could be that spell instead of being proc-based (think Burning Crusade). Arcane Barrage could proc and consume charges, so it still has a use in a burn/conserve model.
- Another idea could be to add a reverse mana adept to the current mastery. The lower your mana, the faster you cast. This would keep the number-crunchers busy and cause a delicate balance of stats and allow a high skill-cap while not leaving lower-skilled players from dropping the ball.
- Movement is far too punishing rather than challenging. AE is the only way to refresh charges while moving.
- Far too dependent on Rune of Power with IW and Invocation being unusable for mana returns. If IW is ever taken, it's only for the passive and the ability cannot be used.
- RoP could be arcane-only and draw itself a la sniper training under the mage's feet when their mana is above 50%. Missiles can be cast while moving when under 50% mana, but it is far more rewarding when you stand still as the rune draws itself. (mana regen needs to be increased to compensate)
- Evocation consumes stacks of charges, therefore cutting regen by half makes the talent unusable.
- Too much is tied into the arcane school of magic, when locked this spec is nearly unusable.
- A long damage ramp-up in PvP without self-heals requires babysitting by one's team.
- In PvP, charges expire while CC'd.
- Mana costs of utility spells are slightly too intensive for arcane's mastery penalty.
Thoughts & Suggestions
- Return of Blast Wave is desired, untie from Flamestrike (or turn Flamestrike into Improved Flamestrike/instant AoE)
- Fix scaling so fire is playable at lower ilvls and not the required spec at higher ilvls. Crit scaling, tier 3/4 hotstreaks (Cata) is a beginning step to helping lower-end scaling.
- Combustion is fun, but there's too much dependence on it. With just ignite feeding it, it's not being averaged out by other DoTs. RPPM gives high gear levels more control over getting higher and perfect combustions over lower gear levels.
- Fire can have a new cooldown (3 min): For a duration, the longer you go without a crit, it increases your chance to crit. This will always be a useful DPS cooldown but assist lower gear levels.
- Pyroblast is too high damage and can be scaled back.
- Mastery relies on crit and haste, therefore everything depends on crit. If mastery can be reworked independently of crit, it can help a lot of the scaling issues and RNG spreads.
- Critical Mass can be a flat number, in a 4-tiered hot streak system it will level out RNG.
- When fire is weak, scorch isn't enough to prop it up. When scaled to a high ilvl, scorch is too good.
- Some feel bombs could feel more like a fiery explosion, perhaps with a return of the old Glyph of Fireblast, but not tied to Fireblast
Thoughts & Suggestions
- Target switching is punishing to the spec. With frostburn gone, it should no longer be a PvP concern.
- The new mastery adds more ramp-up in its own right which is sufficient.
- Frost is a little too good at low item levels, and cannot benefit from additional stat ratings at a competitive rate. New mastery will likely help this. If the crit ceiling is raised back to 33% (old shatter), we have a place for the stat.
- The spec feels too limited in PvE due to PvP concerns that may or may not be valid at this juncture. Icicles help this, but there's a stigma.
- The water elemental doesn't do enough to feel warranted by many, though active use may be a strain. A return of the Water Jet idea may be fun, and/or giving it a defensive ability (possibly a Lei Shi protector feign) can add more flavor to it.
- Water Elemental ability: Surge: Frees the Water Elemental of all movement impairing effects, returns it to your side in a surge of water and knocks/snares/interrupts (whichever is most balanced)
- Glyph of Water Elemental should be baseline. It has a bizarre AI but might be tied in general pet-AI issues.
- Increase frostbolt damage, potentially cast time. This could be done via glyph or reverted by a glyph.
- Icy Veins glyph doesn't do much of anything at high gear levels and will generate smaller icicles.
- Icy Veins can be re-evaluated as a cooldown, perhaps it can offer more damage rather than haste? Not necessary if frostbolt cast time is increased.
- Now that Frostburn is gone, why can't we have Frostbite back? Improved cone of cold replacing the current glyph and the damage being baseline? Can blizzard consume FoF?
In addition, please help me gather some thoughts and data by answering these questions:
1) What's your mage's name, realm(US/EU/etc), and current ilvl?
2) What specs have you completed at least one fight in Tier 14 in?
3) Tier 15?
4) If numbers were not an issue, what spec would you play?
5) If you could sacrifice spec diversity to have the same scaling across all 3 specs to allow for true choice in thematics, would you be okay with that? If not, would you be okay with it as a temporary solution?
6) If you were against the idea presented in #5 (or if you were for it, give any opinion): Would you rather true spec diversity, but the requirement that you change specs for appropriate fights? Would this be more appealing if all gear worked for all specs, but your mage/frost/molten armor compensated for the scaling?
7) If you could change only one thing about the mage class overall, what would it be?
Wishlist Shout Board:
- Akraen/544 @ US-Stormrage: Remove the bomb tier entirely
- Methusula/537 @ US-Thunderlord: LEVEL 90 TALENTS!!!1! (change)
- Facetarian/522 @ US-Emerald Dream: loss of buffs gained while in alter time is just so obnoxious- I'd like a glyph to option out of that
- Kiriel/543 @ US-Stormreaver: Either remove the movement penalty or add it to the other dps classes. Get us all more in alignment with each other.
- Turkeyone/544 @ US-Lothar: Lvl 90 talents they just nerf fun
- Raves/539 @ US-Hellscream: Level 90 talents have got to go.
- Mistwynd/536 @ US-Lightbringer: the level 90 talents SUCK! They aren't fun, aren't compelling, and severely detract from gameplay. The entire tier should be ditched and completely replaced.
- Voltaa/548 @ US-Stormrage: Exponential scaling, in both directions, needs to go
- Winnrie/522 @ US-Thaurissan: I was actually fine with the first iteration of the L90 talents, but they have become too similar right now.
- Zilotu/543 @ US-Stormrage: Since Level 90 talents is an obvious one, I'd say scaling (fire too good, frost absolute garbage).
- Cycobi/543 @ EU-The Maelstrom: Bring back more spec-specific spells within schools
- Morimasa/522 @ US-Misha: 90 Talents since that seems like the easiest thing to hope for at this point.
- Mastamagee/537 @ US-Turalyon: I'd get rid of the new talent system and bring back a form of the old one
- Jtmzac/540 @ US-Stormrage: There's lots of smaller problems that contribute to the overall state of the class that all need to be resolved.
- Srig/532 @ US-Firetree: I cannot stand when certain specs are "not optimal" by a wide margin at ilvls. Why have specs if you can only play one??
- Stressball/529 @ US-Turalyon: Viability of the three specs, which really means scaling.
- Pete/551 @ EU-Anetheron: give Alter Time a trinket proc protection and/or get rid of RPPM trinkets
- Trolflcopter/549 @ US-Cho'gall: Arcane's lack of movement (as it gets doubly f****d by RoP AND no cast-on-the-move spells).
- Erraneous/515 @ US-Khaz'goroth: I would overhaul the last tiers talents.
- Pyrõstorm/536 @ US-Caelestrasz: Lvl 90 talents
- Lavok/538 @ EU-Xavius: Lvl90 talents, AT eating procs. sorry, 2 things
- Pyropanda/535 @ EU-Darksorrow: Fire-Combustion/Arcane-RoP/Frost-Scaling
- Abraxis/549 @ EU-Anetheron: make Rune of Power an Instantcast
- Thanje/546 @ EU-Ner'Zhul: Proc protection during Alter Time
- Sombrelûne/550 @ EU-Hyjal: Disparity between the specs.
- Ansrareth/529 @ US-Tichondrius: make the lvl 90 talents feel like something across all specs and not just what flavor of mana regen you want.
- Flell/527 @ US-Kil'Jaden: I would redesign the 90 talents.
- Frostedmages/534 @ US-Whisperwind: Remove how homogenized the specs feel from bombs.
- Israfael/536 @ US-Mazrigos: Return fire to pre-mop state with fixed + crit% modifiers and get rid of CM.
- Belzin/544 @ US-Sargeras: I think the 90 talents need to be redone. I think they are clunky and hardly feel "mage-like" to me.
- Vynkasmyn/515 @ EU-Dun Modr: Lack of "spec mechanics".
- Hanodar/540 @ US-Stormrage: Add an inverse effect to Mana Adept. Give me back my math!
- Intervir/542 @ US-Azralon: My main concern is the lv-90 tier talent. It adds no fun to the gameplay.
- Malon/535 @ EU-Wildhammer: Actually, I think the main issue I have with the class at present (pre-5.4) is our AoE rotation.
- Silvermage/532 @ US-Kel'Thuzad: A resource system unique to each spec, which would kill the 90 talents as a consequence because those are all about managing mana.
- Archet/516 @ US-Quel'thalas: Lvl 90 talents. I like to feel powerfull when I push the buttons, not penalized for not having some buff always on.
- Corianin/533 @ US-Kul Tiras: The level 90 talents
- Frostyspeed/542 @ EU-Terokkar: Make frost bomb viable / Arcane missiles while moving / combustion variation ridiculous
- Iaretall/544 @ EU-Khadgar: More interesting L90 talents
- Jamesmarcus/548 @ EU-Silvermoon: More interactive talents for a mage. Every 'tier', there's generally a clear winner.
- Mithrio/528 @ EU-Blutkessel (Paraphrased): Many things, but RNG ruins perfect play.
- Dawnstrike/489 @ US-Moon Guard: All of the mage talents.
- Dirkee/515 @ US-Saurfang: Mage level 75 and 90 talents.
- Hiroran/538 @ US-Cho'gall: Probably make the talents how they were at the start of the xpac, for at least the lvl 90 ones
- Juliuscaesar/521 @ US-Area52: If i could change one thing i would change our stupid level 90 talents. Stand here!! or wait let me stop dpsing and channel. So ridiculous.
- Truffnstuff/542 @ US-Kil Jaeden: Probably a fire redesign, but frankly I think major changes would do far more harm than good.
- Hauhét/548 @ US-Kazzak: Has to be the 90 talents, they're supposed to be fun but instead they're a chore.
- Prelimar/510 @ US-Nazgrel: I have tried all the level 90 talents, and while i don't find them as terrible as many say, i do feel they need rethinking, especially when so many fights are movement-based, and the top-tier mage talents require us to stand still to cast them.
- Alaseira/448 @ US-Sisters of Elune: LET ME FROSTBOLT IN PEACE! (well, in combat anyway)
- Middletroll/538 @ US-Arthas: Frost mastery, the current icicle idea is just extra damage effect, does not encourage engaging gameplay.
- Lfgismagical/501 @ US-Magtheridon: I hate the reliance on mage bombs
- Tebla/528 @ US-Cenarius: I would like to have the bombs be spec dependent and work for all trinkets.
- Cortivva/522 @ US-Uther: I would like to see the talents reworked so that they were more fun and not mandatory.
- Айсифреш/547 @ EU-Свежеватель душ: The only thing I wanna have it is deleting lvl90 talents from the game.
- Рина/540 @ EU-Азурегос: Level 90 talents if overall; Fire - RNG, Frost - scaling, Arcane - mobility if for the specs.
- Justspamsone/532 @ US-Dawnbringer: Our class ceases to function at 90 if we don't choose a talent from tier 5 and 6. Don't know of any other class with that kind of dependence.
- Danaos/530 @ EU-Tirion: bombs spells or comperable dots tied to specc, giving a chance for more flavor to each spec
- Niterage/529 @ EU-Runetotem: The specs need to be less minor stat oriented (i.e. crit for fire,haste for frost,mastery for arcane). So it's easier to swap specs on demand.
- Starlight/470 @ US-Moon Guard: I'd insist on giving three specs more diversity in the WAY THEY FUNCTION... Atm, they all feel the same
- Species/541 @ US-Sargeras: The level 90 talents need to be reworked, mainly Rune of Power.
- Shyzyhra/515 @ US-Draka: I wish they had a glyph or spell or something that made the pet optional by compensating for the lost dps if you don't have the pet summoned.
- Destru/539 @ EU-Stormreaver: I would love the specs to have appropriate abilities regarding their actual speliazations
- Nathyiel/537 @ EU-Sargeras: Armors; frost, mage & molten... But I really think they can bake the offensive bonus into each spec, and make them as talent with only defensive bonus. In this case, Frost armor need to change to be appealing.
- Hasufer/545 @ EU-Kazzak: ...a concrete matter, would be to remove/redesign or renew the lvl 90 talents
- Zatetic/527 @ US-Frostmourne: I'd like frost to scale better and not be hard against stat caps.
- Fyrae/493 @ US-Suramar: making the class' primary resource something other than RNG
- Silmandel/534 @ US-Stormrage: This ridiculous notion that the rest of the playerbase has about Mages being a no-skill, faceroll class that magically destroys them in PvP and PvE without effort.
Yes, streamline spec play to preserve thematics: 3 souls
No, diversity in playstyle trumps the color of my spells: 46 souls
Yes, use a scaling mechanic such as armors to give each spec a clear niche, and allow mages to switch specs depending on the mechanics of a fight without reforging/gearing: 32 souls
No, allow me to stick to the spec I play throughout most/all content: 15 souls
(more to come soon-- out of town on business so I'm slow to update!)
My note to self section (ignore):
Things I (or a helpful someone else) needs to still do:
1) Total up the spec choices in questions 2, 3, and 4 with totals
2) get the statistics for #s 5 and 6 from battlenet forums (MMO is updated to post 98)
3) get the "top 3 wishes" from the wish shoutbox