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  1. #41
    The example in the OP may not be ideal. But he isn't far off. There's far more meter whoring than there used to be in the earlier days of the game for healers specifically. Its always been a thing for DPS. I remember 10 manning Strat and people flipping out about dps meters. But Healing was much less so, noone got mad at you for shielding someone, or landing a heal while they had one queued, as long as the boss died and everyone was alive.

    Nowadays its odd to run a LFR and get nasty private messages from people because I used spirit shell and bubbled the raid before massive raid damage went out.... Not because it wasn't completely effective, but because some jerk looking at a healing meter got upset because that final raid wide bubble pushed me over him for 'raid healing' at the end of the encounter...

    I mean, who cares? Jesus Christ.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Nightstorm View Post
    it wouldn't be more mana efficient, you are just cock blocking the other healers from helping top off shields and that CD is better used on quake stomp. Anyway not the point of the post. lol
    This seems all you are worried about is another person knocking your numbers down. I personally think 3 halos for a stomp is over kill. I do not see how you think that it isn't. If meters really don't matter to you then do not look at them until someone dies then check to find out what happen. If people are not ending up dead and your mana is fine then who cares what Cd's you use when. Meter whoring only matters to those who let it matter.

  3. #43
    Warchief HeatherRae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xyrax View Post
    The example in the OP may not be ideal. But he isn't far off. There's far more meter whoring than there used to be in the earlier days of the game for healers specifically. Its always been a thing for DPS. I remember 10 manning Strat and people flipping out about dps meters. But Healing was much less so, noone got mad at you for shielding someone, or landing a heal while they had one queued, as long as the boss died and everyone was alive.

    Nowadays its odd to run a LFR and get nasty private messages from people because I used spirit shell and bubbled the raid before massive raid damage went out.... Not because it wasn't completely effective, but because some jerk looking at a healing meter got upset because that final raid wide bubble pushed me over him for 'raid healing' at the end of the encounter...

    I mean, who cares? Jesus Christ.
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  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Xyrax View Post
    The example in the OP may not be ideal. But he isn't far off. There's far more meter whoring than there used to be in the earlier days of the game for healers specifically. Its always been a thing for DPS. I remember 10 manning Strat and people flipping out about dps meters. But Healing was much less so, noone got mad at you for shielding someone, or landing a heal while they had one queued, as long as the boss died and everyone was alive.

    Nowadays its odd to run a LFR and get nasty private messages from people because I used spirit shell and bubbled the raid before massive raid damage went out.... Not because it wasn't completely effective, but because some jerk looking at a healing meter got upset because that final raid wide bubble pushed me over him for 'raid healing' at the end of the encounter...

    I mean, who cares? Jesus Christ.
    I would hazard a guess that your specific example is probably in the minority (if totally true at all) which wouldn't indicate more meter whoring, in an of itself.

    Anecdotal evidence (which this thread has no evidence of any kind) is never good!

    Oh...and...LOL @ LFR. Never use LFR as an example. Just...don't.

  5. #45
    The problem in the games current state is that looking at healing meters is the only way most see any healer as "good". It stems a lot from dps times when its done, who does most damage who has biggest e-peen. Healing is getting to a point where it doesn't actually require any "skill" as such, rather a knowledge of a standard rotation to stick to (more or less) in the game. Class balance also has a great deal to to with hps, some healers can ignore regen while others play poorly without it. As aladya previously said, to stack x healer so you can get another dps or even just to maximise output should others struggle is how to best progress in tiers. In my eyes a healer would be someone who has good awareness, not dying to mechanics a lot (if at all) and giving cds etc should they be needed on point. Sadly it isn't in that ideal case, and I personally don't see it changing for a good while yet

  6. #46
    Mechagnome veiledy0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdumb View Post
    Healing is getting to a point where it doesn't actually require any "skill"
    Remember Wild Growth in FL? Holy Radiance in Dragon Soul? Spinning Crane Kick in MSV? Ye, so do I. With Renewing Mists continuing the trend in ToT. Since ever smart heals were implemented, healing requires very little, if any skill at all, and is currently by far the easiest raid role in the game.
    Last edited by veiledy0; 2013-07-29 at 02:11 AM.
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  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdumb View Post
    The problem in the games current state is that looking at healing meters is the only way most see any healer as "good". It stems a lot from dps times when its done, who does most damage who has biggest e-peen. Healing is getting to a point where it doesn't actually require any "skill" as such, rather a knowledge of a standard rotation to stick to (more or less) in the game. Class balance also has a great deal to to with hps, some healers can ignore regen while others play poorly without it. As aladya previously said, to stack x healer so you can get another dps or even just to maximise output should others struggle is how to best progress in tiers. In my eyes a healer would be someone who has good awareness, not dying to mechanics a lot (if at all) and giving cds etc should they be needed on point. Sadly it isn't in that ideal case, and I personally don't see it changing for a good while yet
    "Current state" healers can meet all of your expectations listed, and still lolepeentopmeters.

    I mean, I get what you're trying to say, but what you're saying on the flip-side is that a raid should take more healers than they feasibly need, just because...why?

    WoW is not "play this way or fail", and hasn't been for a long while. Sure, there's a wide range from optimal (class stacking) to sub-optimal ("bring the player") and there's a lot of room for interpretation. Someone calling people "toxic" just because they want to get the most out of their pixelated avatar is really quite absurd and toxic itself, IMO; you are, afterall, the one being highly judgmental.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Castochi View Post
    And the OP's post exemplifies why I reached the conclusion that I was not meant to heal in World of Warcraft. I am a highly competitive person, and the moment I started playing the game back in WotLK and I found there was such a thing as Recount, Skada and the like, I began pursuing the maximization of my class/spec with the goal of performing better than my peers.

    I started out as a healer. A Holy Priest to be exact. And I prided myself in topping the meters during Heroic Dungeons, but then I started entering the world of Normal Mode raiding more or less during the Argent Tournament patch. I discovered the concept of overhealing, and that represented a new challenge for me: Top the meters with the least amount of overhealing possible. I had a greater or lesser success, but that is not the point.

    As you may very well imagine, this is by all means an extremely toxic playstyle in which for example, if I noticed the tank was about dead, but casting an AoE heal would benefit my Healing Done score more, I would opt to cast the AoE heal, let the tank die, and not feel any guilt about it because after all, I'm first in Healing Done and last in Overhealing Done.

    Thankfully, I realized the error of my ways and at the same time concluded that I cannot change the kind of person I am. For me, meters matter. Sim DPS sheets and parses matter. I am now a proud Prot Paladin with perfect Hand usage, Active Mitigation and cooldown management, as well as a Heroic Raiding Shadow Priest (specs are Shadow/Shadow now, lol) who pumps out sick numbers while making as little rotation mistakes as possible, failing in as little mechanics as possible, and even contributing to the raid with life-saving Void Shifts and Leap of Faith, restoring healer mana with Hymn, and did I mention sick numbers?

    Healing is definitely not for everyone. If you find yourself playing for the meters instead of for the heals, it is my opinion that you should definitely consider a different role more adequate to your playstyle, but that's just me.
    Thing is, there is no role in the game (nope, not even DPS) for which meters capture and relate all the information pertinent to how well you're actually performing your role.

    Topping meters as a healer but the tank still died? You could perform better. Topping meters as a DPS but failing to interrupt/cast self-heals as appropriate/use defensive CDs at opportune moments? You could perform better. Vengeance-whoring to top meters as a tank, but taking spiky damage and making it impossible for your healers to heal you predictably? You could perform better.

    Tl;dr - meters don't tell the whole story, no matter what role you're playing.

  9. #49
    Warchief HeatherRae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vigilant View Post
    Topping meters as a healer but the tank still died? You could perform better.
    This is patently false. The game is full of situations where the tank dies and there is absolutely nothing the healer could have done to save said tank.
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  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by HeatherRae View Post
    This is patently false. The game is full of situations where the tank dies and there is absolutely nothing the healer could have done to save said tank.
    True; it could have been the tank's fault! Sitting for Vengeance, as Vigilant used in a later example.

    DPS and Tank meter whoring aside, if a healer is topping meters and no one dies, the healer in question is probably performing well. Sure you could argue there's always room for improvement, but wouldn't that mean that the healer tops the meter by a larger percentage?

    Btw, meters don't mean jack if it's a wipe, except when used as an analysis tool for "what went wrong/right".

  11. #51
    High Overlord Vilbu's Avatar
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    This all is mostly happening because of the low healing requirements or bringing too many healers to the encounter. I remember healing some quite intensive encounters a few tiers back. Didn't really have too much time cheesing the meters when the health bars were flashing a lil bit too low. Now we spam smart heals and stack absorbs because its the only way to keep healing interesting at the moment. The ultimate goal as a disc priest is to push insane dps and not to let any dmg through if possible. That mentality works pretty much with the types of encounters they've been pushing out lately.

  12. #52
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    There is basicly no challenge anymore for me as a healer these days and the raidversions I do now when you compare it to let's say vanilla. I find that if I focus on beating other healers I have the most fun, and that is what's raiding is about these days for me.
    My behaviour basicly stems from TBC where, even in a top10 guild (still, it was what, 1/2 months behind Nihilum?), we healers made bets before the boss /100g and the winner of the healingmeter got the gold. This was implemented by the healingteam after we killed Illidan and realised we had to do it for another 6/7 months to have some fun. Throughout Sunwell and WotLK we basicly kept this emphasis on winning the healingmeter but still raged on someone spamhealing the shadowpriest' shadowword:death for example, I mean we didn't take it to the extreme like your Tortos Example. It's just hard to get that out of your system and I don't believe I should anymore, for me these days it's about seeing I am 'keeping up' with the healing, since imo it's a lot about spamming the shit out of it these days.

  13. #53
    All I can say is that if I fail to get into the 95th percentile on WoL, on any fight, I feel like I have failed, even if the boss dies. This is only counting the West of course, as the asians have a retarded gear advantage. Yes, I know plenty of West healers beat them even with lower gear, but those are players much better than myself, or they rig the meters.

    Does that make me a meter whore? Probably, but I don't care. It makes healing more fun and fulfilling for me. It doesn't help that our healing lead refuses to 5 heal any fight though, even shit like Jin'rokh or Horridon, which we could realistically 4 heal if people don't stand in stupid shit. And forget about rigging the meters to make someone rank. I'd probably be sat for even making that suggestion. Doesn't help that our dps is very low compared to a lot of heroic guilds. On the fights I do manage to rank, our kills take about a minute to two minutes longer than most of the other rankings I see.
    Last edited by Amerrol; 2013-07-30 at 10:58 AM.
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  14. #54
    High Overlord Vilbu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amerrol View Post
    All I can say is that if I fail to get into the 95th percentile on WoL, on any fight, I feel like I have failed, even if the boss dies. This is only counting the West of course, as the asians have a retarded gear advantage. Yes, I know plenty of West healers beat them even with lower gear, but those are players much better than myself, or they rig the meters.

    Does that make me a meter whore? Probably, but I don't care. It makes healing more fun and fulfilling for me. It doesn't help that our healing lead refuses to 5 heal any fight though, even shit like Jin'rokh or Horridon, which we could realistically 4 heal if people don't stand in stupid shit. And forget about rigging the meters to make someone rank. I'd probably be sat for even making that suggestion. Doesn't help that our dps is very low compared to a lot of heroic guilds. On the fights I do manage to rank, our kills take about a minute to two minutes longer than most of the other rankings I see.
    I mostly rank if we ignore some mechanics or if the raid members fail to execute them. If every mechanic is taken care of properly there is very little to none raid damage incoming. I don't care about ranks if I don't have to cover for other people's mistakes.

    Nowadays so many people talk about ranking in WoL, like it would be the purpose of it all. As far as I am concerned WoL has always been a tool to check some information about the fight. Interrupts, dispels, damage taken, buff uptimes they all show in there. It gives you a good idea what to do differently next time and it is super efficient when trying to figure out why are we wiping on the boss.
    Last edited by Vilbu; 2013-07-30 at 11:39 AM.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Mctriple View Post
    There's nothing inherently wrong with healers continually looking for ways to increase their output throughout a fight. In fact, the best healers I know are always doing this, just like the best DPS.
    But this is exactly where the problem lies. People assume that all those who try to invrease their output are doing it right and all who don't max their numbers are doing it wrong. Most people don't care to spend the time to look deeper into it.
    Sometimes great healers look low in numbers while someone else heals a lot more without really helping anyone.

    Wiping because of not enough HpM can be the fault of the one with the most healing done over the course of the fight.

    There was this thread about a disc a while back, who spammed abosrbs on anyone at the beginning of the fight (thus keeping anyone else from spending any mana in a meaningful way and thereby negating the regen of the rest of the healing team), later in the fight when the HpS requirements went up and all healers would be needed he was already oom and the rest of the team couldn't convert their full mana pool into effective healing fast and efficiently enough, couldn't keep the raid up on their own.
    The raid would wipe due to not enough healing while the disc had the most healing done, but still caused the problem in the first place.
    The raidleader just looked at the numbers and blamed the (changing) other healers, though, causing them to quit in the end.
    Last edited by Noradin; 2013-07-30 at 01:34 PM.

  16. #56
    To be honest, I ask the 'toxic' questions to myself once I have the boss on farm and I want to make a sub game out of healing. Otherwise I just get bored.
    This was what in the end made me chose to main a dps spec in stead of a healing spec. After progress has been done, the only way to challenge myself as a healer is to use less healers for a fight (solohealing and stuff like this). It's just like raid achievements really. Do we want to one heal this fight --> nahh we killed it with two healers and we don't feel like wiping. During progress healing is definitely more fun than dps, but the self-challenge with ranking is just more competetive/useful to the raid than as a healer.

  17. #57
    See, Noradin...the problem with your example is that the Disc in question did what s/he did at the expense of the raid, which nobody is advocating. OP lumped general (and specific) things one can do to improve one's numbers together with things that just make one an ass-hat healer.

    On a new fight, I generally play really conservative, until I get used to the damage patterns, fight length, and whatnot. There's no shame in pushing my boundaries once I'm comfortable enough to do so (whether after a kill or two, or several wipes). Does this include gemming/reforging differently, changing my spell selection, using SS or other cooldowns at different times, or PW:S spamming when I know it's safe too? Yup...especially on the fights where we started out 3 healing, and dropped to 2.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by veiledy0 View Post
    Remember Wild Growth in FL? Holy Radiance in Dragon Soul? Spinning Crane Kick in MSV? Ye, so do I. With Renewing Mists continuing the trend in ToT. Since ever smart heals were implemented, healing requires very little, if any skill at all, and is currently by far the easiest raid role in the game.
    Could you please explain how you are quantifying skill in that statement, and contrast how it compares to the skill of a dps or tank? The context of this thread is in pve, raiding specifically, so I assume that is what you were referring to as well, right?

    I primarily heal in pve, and by no means consider myself to be very good. I am just curious to understand your thinking.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Spazzeh View Post
    See, Noradin...the problem with your example is that the Disc in question did what s/he did at the expense of the raid, which nobody is advocating. OP lumped general (and specific) things one can do to improve one's numbers together with things that just make one an ass-hat healer.
    The main problem was that the raid leader thought: "high on meters" = "good healer"; "lower on the meters" = "the one at fault".
    Which is an oversimplification others will make every time if we support it some of the time, and in the example given it was misleading.

  20. #60
    Comes off as a massive whine since the sole reason to be holy for tortos is to pad meters. It has nothing to bring to the fight other than HPS throughput which other heal classes can output more efficiently.

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