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  1. #321
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    Quote Originally Posted by Netherspark View Post
    MoP has been more "alt friendly" than ever. Look how easy it is to gear up.... it's almost too fast.

    There is no reason to do all those dailies again unless you want to.
    This... My alts exist to basically supply my main with whatever he needs. I leveled the profs, and they sat until they cut the amount of xp needed to level. Since then I've leveled 4 toons to 90, used AV weekend to get them to a 476 Item level via PVP gear, ran the world bosses and BOOM, at 480. Once a week a buddy and I go around and kill the warscouts and warbringers -- we load up on rep tokens. Main aside the other toons likely took 3-4 hours of play time to be TOT LFR ready and revered on everything save for Anglers -- most of that in AV weekend grinds. Do a couple runs through LFR and boom, you're at 495-500 or so item level without much effort at all.

    Even getting 50 coins is easy.. One day of dailies on the Isle and killing rares, gets you close.

    Since raiding on my main is my primary focus -- I've enjoyed MOP a great deal.

  2. #322
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Right. Okay. Don't call WoW an MMO then. I could care less. Everything that wow did and what made wow a success was totally and completely the opposite of every mmo standard in the universe. Flying is on EXCELLENT example of this.
    You're right, it IS an excellent example, though probably not the way you intended. There's no risk at all during the process of flight. You can't get knocked off your mount, or even attacked unless you go out of your way very specifically looking for it. There is zero upkeep or any sort of relationship to maintain with your mount. It's essentially a brain-dead point and steer, which disengages the player from the game, and turns into a lackluster chore.

    There's all sorts of room for improvement in this particular aspect of the game. Imagine if there were no guarantee that you'd make it to where you were going without death, or it maybe taking longer for a variety of reasons. Or if your flying mount was something you needed to level, and it could travel further as you progressed. Or if some of them had unique abilities (catching fish, gathering skins for you, etc) It would make flight points an interesting option in some areas (and flight costs could go up considerably, based on your level as an offset) if you wanted the luxury of it.

    How hunter pets are handled now is another fine example of something that used to be at least on the right path game-play wise, and is now a complete and utter joke of a game mechanic. So much potential, thrown away under the guise of 'quality of life'.
    Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion

  3. #323
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoddie View Post

    Some of the profession work was generic and boring, but I enjoyed the cooking prof and how it took a combination of dailies/work/gold/exploration to get to 600 across the board. The ranch is/was a ball ache to babysit daily but it was fun for a while and something new, particularly the way the farm evolved over the short to medium term. I thought the attention they paid to fishing and archaeology, both criminally over-looked in Cata, was promising but that still more could have been achieved.

    The farm gets tedious, but it's one of the things I hope they carry-over to the next XP. Being able to "make" your own mats without legitimately "farming" in the traditional sense has been pretty awesome

  4. #324
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    You're right, it IS an excellent example, though probably not the way you intended. There's no risk at all during the process of flight. You can't get knocked off your mount, or even attacked unless you go out of your way very specifically looking for it. There is zero upkeep or any sort of relationship to maintain with your mount. It's essentially a brain-dead point and steer, which disengages the player from the game, and turns into a lackluster chore.

    There's all sorts of room for improvement in this particular aspect of the game. Imagine if there were no guarantee that you'd make it to where you were going without death, or it maybe taking longer for a variety of reasons. Or if your flying mount was something you needed to level, and it could travel further as you progressed. Or if some of them had unique abilities (catching fish, gathering skins for you, etc) It would make flight points an interesting option in some areas (and flight costs could go up considerably, based on your level as an offset) if you wanted the luxury of it.

    How hunter pets are handled now is another fine example of something that used to be at least on the right path game-play wise, and is now a complete and utter joke of a game mechanic. So much potential, thrown away under the guise of 'quality of life'.
    Your right that's not what I intended. All the systems that players lament were added in the "best" expansion this game ever had but they were also I would argue in large part responsible for this games success. I know I know you've got a long diatribe against convenience and quality of life but those things exist for a reason, a very good one. They ease players frustrations and make playing the game smooth and enjoyable. Not frustrating, painful, slow and grindy.

    Flying is a good example of the above. If tmmrw they got rid of it entirely or nerfed it as you suggest you think people would stick around and put up with that? Not only can you not unwind that clock (although I hope they try) theirs no reason you should. Travelling in general is brain dead, even on ground mounts I alt tab and run through most crap and OCCASIONALLY have to alt tab back in because I dismount. It's TRAVEL, it should be brain dead because it's not your goal. Your goal is to finish whatever task, not get on the way to finish whatever task. Being waylaid by mobs to get what you need to get done is BORING. It gets tired REAL fast and it got tired on IOT exceptionally fast. IOT was a little better for this because of how it was designed, everything was fairly compact so getting from A to B didn't really leave you to get waylaid that often. IN the rest of the world forget about it. It would be a massive pain in the ass and it was lvling in mists.

    Their seems to be this ridiculous notion that inconvenience makes the game fun and that conversely convenience makes for boredom. Well I can tell you that inconvenience does not make for fun, what it does is make for frustration and not enjoyment or entertainment. If inconvenience made for fun you and I would still be typing in codes for levels instead of saved games. They embraced so many painfully stupid and regressive notions this expansion and instead of ameliorating the sub loss it exacerbated it. The time to embrace outdated and outmoded notions has come to an end. We need more flying not less.

    As for hunter pets they can go DIAF. If they had a hunter spec that let me sacrifice my pet I'd take it and never look back.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-07-28 at 01:29 AM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  5. #325
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Your right that's not what I intended. All the systems that players lament were added in the "best" expansion this game ever had but they were also I would argue in large part responsible for this games success. I know I know you've got a long diatribe against convenience and quality of life but those things exist for a reason, a very good one. They ease players frustrations and make playing the game smooth and enjoyable. Not frustrating, painful, slow and grindy.

    Flying is a good example of the above. If tmmrw they got rid of it entirely or nerfed it as you suggest you think people would stick around and put up with that? Not only can you not unwind that clock (although I hope they try) theirs no reason you should. Travelling in general is brain dead, even on ground mounts I alt tab and run through most crap and OCCASIONALLY have to alt tab back in because I dismount. It's TRAVEL, it should be brain dead because it's not your goal. Your goal is to finish whatever task, not get on the way to finish whatever task. Being waylaid by mobs to get what you need to get done is BORING. It gets tired REAL fast and it got tired on IOT exceptionally fast. IOT was a little better for this because of how it was designed, everything was fairly compact so getting from A to B didn't really leave you to get waylaid that often. IN the rest of the world forget about it. It would be a massive pain in the ass and it was lvling in mists.

    Their seems to be this ridiculous notion that inconvenience makes the game fun or that convenience makes for boredom. Well I can tell you that inconvenience does not make for fun, what it does is make for frustration and not enjoyment or entertainment. If inconvenience made for fun you and I would still be typing in codes for levels instead of saved games.
    We'll just have to agree to disagree. I say that game mechanics that are viewed as chores could use a revisit, and be reworked into an interesting aspect of the game, rather than something so pointless it might as well be removed altogether. That isn't going to help keep players subbed.

    To me, IoT (if you were undergeared) was pretty close to spot in terms of player engagement, though mob density could have been increased. The one klaxxi island was also good if you weren't overgeared as well (the one where they'd send you to kill various packs), as is dino isle.

    Different strokes and all that.
    Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion

  6. #326
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    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    We'll just have to agree to disagree. I say that game mechanics that are viewed as chores could use a revisit, and be reworked into an interesting aspect of the game, rather than something so pointless it might as well be removed altogether. That isn't going to help keep players subbed.

    To me, IoT (if you were undergeared) was pretty close to spot in terms of player engagement, though mob density could have been increased. The one klaxxi island was also good if you weren't overgeared as well (the one where they'd send you to kill various packs), as is dino isle.

    Different strokes and all that.
    By the same token removing or nerfing convenience in the game isn't going to keep anybody subbed and Mists is pretty good evidence of that.

    IoT is a pretty good example of getting players to go out of their way pointlessly to keep them engaged. It clearly didn't retain subscribers. If anything mob density should be lowered, especially along the roads. When I go the island I'm not stopping their to site see or screw around with mobs on the way, I'm going to complete my quests and hopefully get a little bit further along the progression road. The more obstacles you put in the way of that the more unattached I get from that goal the more likely I am to move on to other games. If the developers learned one thing this expansion I hope they learned that people have VERY limited stomachs for "the stick" and can and will walk away from the game if you beat them up to much.

    I mean your absolutely welcome to like that but to expect that theirs a sadomasochistic desire on the part of a large majority of the player base to be subject to such ridiculous obstacles in the name of regressive ideas and genre conventions is pretty silly I think. Especially when it garnered all the success that it did by abandoning and moving away from those same conventions for years.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  7. #327
    Herald of the Titans serenka's Avatar
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    Another thing for me that didn't work, armor set designs, I think aside from vanilla this expac has been the worst for armor designs. Nt a single one I have liked so far, thank god for transmogrify!
    dragonmaw - EU

  8. #328
    The other major problem this expansion is Blizzard's total failure to respond to the population issues of servers. They messed it up in every way possible. Low population servers became worse, the raise of mega servers with ques and the end of faction balance on nearly every server.

  9. #329
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    By the same token removing or nerfing convenience in the game isn't going to keep anybody subbed and Mists is pretty good evidence of that.

    IoT is a pretty good example of getting players to go out of their way pointlessly to keep them engaged. It clearly didn't retain subscribers. If anything mob density should be lowered, especially along the roads. When I go the island I'm not stopping their to site see or screw around with mobs on the way, I'm going to complete my quests and hopefully get a little bit further along the progression road. The more obstacles you put in the way of that the more unattached I get from that goal the more likely I am to move on to other games. If the developers learned one thing this expansion I hope they learned that people have VERY limited stomachs for "the stick" and can and will walk away from the game if you beat them up to much.

    I mean your absolutely welcome to like that but to expect that theirs a sadomasochistic desire on the part of a large majority of the player base to be subject to such ridiculous obstacles in the name of regressive ideas and genre conventions is pretty silly I think. Especially when it garnered all the success that it did by abandoning and moving away from those same conventions for years.
    Convenience kills role playing elements from the game. Sometimes that's fine for insignificant things but for the most part it isn't.
    Flying mounts disconnected you from the "world" more than ground mounts.

    Individual group buffing, for example, wasn't a very good element to keep at the expense of convenience.

    And I'm sorry to hear that IoT was too harsh for you, that enemies are keeping you from comleting your quests. How dare they. What are they doing on the silly Island anyways! They're just an obstacle between you and your objectives!

  10. #330
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeedmySpeed View Post
    Convenience kills role playing elements from the game. Sometimes that's fine for insignificant things but for the most part it isn't.
    Flying mounts disconnected you from the "world" more than ground mounts.

    Individual group buffing, for example, wasn't a very good element to keep at the expense of convenience.

    And I'm sorry to hear that IoT was too harsh for you, that enemies are keeping you from comleting your quests. How dare they. What are they doing on the silly Island anyways! They're just an obstacle between you and your objectives!

    It wasn't to harsh for me but I can understand why people leave when the game developers decide to throw obstacles in front of them and mask incovenience as immersion or as gameplay. It's not. Flying mounts disconnecting you from the world is fine because the world itself is a massive disconnect. Simple removing flying mounts will not reconnect you to do it, all it will do is make you feel slightly annoyed and inconvenienced. Their is no connection, no immersion back down that path. Their is only continued subscriber loss.

    Look in mists they tried to embrace so many painfully stupid and regressive ideas and not only did it NOT stem the tide of sub loss it only served to exarcebate it. Why do you think continuing to rob players of convenience is a good thing? Why do you think masking inconvenience as immersion works? Do you not use the save game feature on your games anymore? I hope they do get rid of all of it. The only way this argument will ever be finished is if the developers embrace every idea they can and just tank the game. Then we can finally put the debate to rest.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-07-28 at 02:35 AM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  11. #331
    Pet battles: MASSIVE amounts of time and effort put into that with no big response or want for it in any way. Sure maybe 10% of whats left of the population likes it, but the time spent on that could have gone into something 90% would of liked. Transmog needs to be taken out of this game, it has led to a lack of care for gear design on blizzards end since if people dont like it they just change it to w/e tier the go and farm out of MC. If you think that's wrong just poll the first group of people you see in a raid group, are they all in the new dull stuff or the old shiny stuff?

  12. #332
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    It wasn't to harsh for me but I can understand why people leave when the game developers decide to throw obstacles in front of them and mask incovenience as immersion or as gameplay. It's not. Flying mounts disconnecting you from the world is fine because the world itself is a massive disconnect. Simple removing flying mounts will not reconnect you to do it, all it will do is make you feel slightly annoyed and inconvenienced. Their is no connection, no immersion back down that path. Their is only continued subscriber loss.

    Look in mists they tried to embrace so many painfully stupid and regressive ideas and not only did it NOT stem the tide of sub loss it only served to exarcebate it. Why do you think continuing to rob players of convenience is a good thing? Why do you think masking inconvenience as immersion works? Do you not use the save game feature on your games anymore? I hope they do get rid of all of it. The only way this argument will ever be finished is if the developers embrace every idea they can and just tank the game. Then we can finally put the debate to rest.
    Wow. No wonder the game is dying. It's filling with players who don't like MMORPGs.

  13. #333
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeedmySpeed View Post
    Wow. No wonder the game is dying. It's filling with players who don't like MMORPGs.
    And this is a shock to you because? MMOS were always a niche genre, wow was a success because it broke and ignored many of the conventions of that genre. Furthermore the conventions of the genre don't really work all that well anymore. Players have to much access to knowledge and information that breaks the connection to the game world. They know who the wizard behind the curtain is and he isn't from OZ.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  14. #334
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    The change in lore, the continuation of the LFR model, the new joke of a race, the new class, ability bloat, very poor balancing decisions, very poor item decisions, and a general lack of innovation.
    "Gamer" is not a bad word. I identify as a gamer. When calling out those who persecute and harass, the word you're looking for is "asshole." @_DonAdams

  15. #335
    Quote Originally Posted by helic View Post
    Pet battles: MASSIVE amounts of time and effort put into that with no big response or want for it in any way. Sure maybe 10% of whats left of the population likes it, but the time spent on that could have gone into something 90% would of liked. Transmog needs to be taken out of this game, it has led to a lack of care for gear design on blizzards end since if people dont like it they just change it to w/e tier the go and farm out of MC. If you think that's wrong just poll the first group of people you see in a raid group, are they all in the new dull stuff or the old shiny stuff?
    More people have 30 lvl 25 pets then have killed a single heroic boss. Pet battles is more popular then heroic raiding. Which do you think they spend more time on? By your logic they should stop using resources on heroic raiding and spend it on pet battles.

    Pet battles has been a huge success this expansion. It maybe the single most popular thing this expansion has added.

  16. #336
    No flying in Pandaria until 90 was terrible.

  17. #337
    Well, these were the things that didn't work for me:

    1) Lack of compelling story. This might be more my fault than Blizzard's, though. I haven't really been compelled since we killed the Lich King. Every ounce of my toon felt consumed by the need to save the world from the Scourge in WoTLK. It fueled questing, made sense of instances, and motivated my doing dailies. I was far less compelled by the threat of Deatwing in Cata, but the revamp to Azeroth was enough to keep my interest pretty piqued. I haven't been engaged by MoP's story whatsoever, though.

    2) Double gating (rep + valor) gear. Lame. So lame. Throw in the ability to champion factions via tabards while running dungeons and it would've only been 1/10th as lame, but forcing dailies upon us in this fashion really irked me.

    3) Speaking of dungeons. The relative lack of dungeons, and the lack of quality in the ones given us, was really a turnoff for me. Might sound weird, but grinding 5-mans is how I spent the vast, vast majority of my time in WoTLK and Cata, with the occasional PuG raid thrown in. The dungeons in MoP have just been... belch. I assume this is due to the greater push to get people into raids instead via LFR, but whatevs. Still lame.

  18. #338
    Quote Originally Posted by Frogged View Post
    This would be an especially good idea when also applied to leveling. Leveling scenarios, in my opinion, are a great missed opportunity by Blizzard. Quests get stale, dungeons are finite, etc. There is a huge untapped resource of scenarios, especially the ones that can't be done in Heroic, like Greenstone Village.
    I thought the same thing. Leveling scenarios placed properly within the story of a zone (max level zones too) would fulfill
    their original intent as queue based group (or solo) quests, and add another avenue for leveling experience/rewards in addition to questing and dungeons. I really don't see their purpose beyond that, especially at max levels. (Perfect example would be if Battle For Undercity, one of the best quests of all time, was brought back as a scenario.)

  19. #339
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    This is simple untrue. The game has also ROBBED so much player convenience and has just put players out for well no reason.
    What was robbed from you this expansion? Alts are easier to progress than any expansion to date. Is there something else I'm missing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Conveneience doesn't make a game fun or not but inconvenience can certainly make a game unfun.
    This is opinion, as was mine. Tell me, though. If you add more and more convenience to a game, it becomes shorter and shorter. There is only so much content a developer can create. Would you find a good game to continue to hold it's high regard in your mind if it were only 30 minutes long? The answer for me would be no. I want to spend time playing games, not just finish games for the sake of finishing games.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Boredom for you is a welcome addition for the guy who can only afford to put in so much time for the game. Would you go back to the days when you didn't have saved games and had to input codes? Saved games were a huge convenience..
    Saved games aren't a convenience. They're a necessity. A human being cannot physically sit in front of a game for hundreds of hours without risking their health. This is very, very different from convenience.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Mists has lot's that isn't convenient about it like no flying for alts is another big one.
    I am actually in support of having flying for alts. The point of removing flying in MoP during leveling was so you could see the content. But if you've seen it once, you earn the right to fly over it. The same can be said for alts. You saw it on your main and you should have earned the right to fly over and ignore it. Flying for your first character would be a bad idea, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    As for your experience with lei shen I would submit you are extremely atypical. I mean I finished my alt a couple of days ago and I still haven't seen lei shen but I didn't play like a mad man.
    I would argue that your experience, not mine, is atypical. Almost everyone I talk to or hear from has the same experience as me. Very little time spent, almost not gold spent, and you can reach and kill Lei Shen within a day of reaching 90. It all comes down to the treasure run and having 20 Elder Charms for t14.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Once again the casuals aren't the problem, the people who play for extended ridiculous periods of time are because they force the developers to design around THEM and not from the bottom up.
    Except Blizzard doesn't listen to the hardcores. If they did, LFR, LFD, and a number of other systems would be gone. As would Normal modes. I would argue the opposite, that Blizzard caters to casuals who are unsure what they want in anticipation of a short-term gain in money and subscriptions, instead of investing long-term in people who are devoted to their game and aren't unsure about their approach.
    "I realized it is the struggle itself that is the most important. We must strive to be more than we are. It does not matter that we will never reach our ultimate goal. The effort yields its own rewards." -Data

  20. #340
    There is no content for alters, at least for me. Let see:

    Dungeons/scenarios: They are a rush even with green gear, no mechanics, just loot piñata. At least at cata I could run dungeons with alters and have fun. I could say that I leveled alters on cata for the dungeons.

    BG: So if I farm honor gear, it is still crap gear for bgs, so no way

    World PvP: Random PvE guy appears and oneshots the alter, gg. But I use my mage to pull oondasta/Nalak to the horde which is a lot of fun.

    LFR: afk, zzzzz....

    Dailies: Again? Hell NO

    Challenge dungeons: I don't even care about doing them with my main, so...

    HC Scenario: That is the only feature I like to do with alters, but the bag drops once a day and I got tired of logging on alters every day.

    Achiv/mounts/pets: Nope

    Just now I have 3 90s; 2 88s and 4 85s. I can't see the point of leveling the rest. For what?

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