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  1. #61
    Thanks to bouchbagette for all the theorycrafting work. We don't get too much of that these days. Great to look at.

    1. We can get about 10k hps from dropping spirit with SH. The problem of course comes from when we want to switch back to SS or EF. We can't sustain mana at those levels of spirit. Sure we can reforge every boss but enchants and gems are pretty much fixed. We're going to have to settle on some happy medium of stats or else stick to SH or not SH or else play very suboptimally every time we respec.

    2. I'm surprised to see people saying SH is the new EF, ie the must have talent. I was under the impression SoO were predominately spread fights and HR would be largely useless. Are you just using HR as a HP generator in these circumstances for LoD?

    3. EF needs higher hps to compete with SS otherwise SS will always be the better options since it prevents damage.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Pasture View Post
    1. We can get about 10k hps from dropping spirit with SH. The problem of course comes from when we want to switch back to SS or EF. We can't sustain mana at those levels of spirit. Sure we can reforge every boss but enchants and gems are pretty much fixed. We're going to have to settle on some happy medium of stats or else stick to SH or not SH or else play very suboptimally every time we respec.
    I see no need to go SS or EF ever if SH goes live the way it is. Take Malkorok for example, LoD is rather weak on that fight due to smart heals being broken on these kinds of fights but it is still equal or better than the other talents.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pasture View Post
    2. I'm surprised to see people saying SH is the new EF, ie the must have talent. I was under the impression SoO were predominately spread fights and HR would be largely useless. Are you just using HR as a HP generator in these circumstances for LoD?
    For all of T15 HR was mostly just a HP generator and nothing has really changed in that regard. Use HR on the melee to be sure you hit 6 targets and spam LoD like no tomorrow.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Pacer View Post
    I see no need to go SS or EF ever if SH goes live the way it is.
    So do SS and EF need buffs or SH nerfs?

    I'm more concerned about SH allowing us to drop so much spirit. I'd be more accepting of it if it didn't require vastly different gearing.

    EF - The hot needs a buff and it needs to affect LoD as well (maybe some short duration WG type quick hot heal after)
    SS - Needs charges, mastery scaling and maybe to allow unused shield to roll into the next tick (but reapplying SS would start it from scratch to stop it being abused).
    SH - Judgment needs to be 15 seconds / 3HP / Full SH stack to kill the dropping of spirit which is one of the main advantages right now.

  4. #64
    Hated SH. Just hated it. Those weird a$s sh`t 8k spirit builds and "like-dps-but-without-dps" rotations with Judgement mashing are not for progression. At least in 10 man heroic enviroment. I know that 25 is a different animal. So maybe you can get away with HR spam and these kind of perversion, but not in 10 man.

    First off, we have already a lot on our plate encounter wise to also track judgement (and you have to use it off GCD to make it work) and weave in rotations. I'm good with that if I am a DPS, but not when I'm immersed in VuhDo. In 10 man we are already streched in man power.

    Second, not everyone runs with shammy (though I think now it will be almost mandatory, I mean SRSLY?!), and Mana Tide is a luxury for some. So the "10k spirit max" is off the table (now without Seal mana return).

    Third, if, IF, <BIG "IF">, they scale up SS even a little bit, it will most likely be mandatory for 10s. I had no problem maintaining at least 2 shields even in most dire OMFG situations. And in a lot of times it was second to only IH. 3 shields are almost 1/3 of the raid. I mean c'mon Blizz, make it scale from mastery!

    Forth, OMFG situations that are usually the synonym of progression. When sh't hits the fan, your metodical SH stacks buildups usually go out of the window. And here is when an ability to mindlessly spam things is the key. Sure, SH stacks boost hps, but in a 6-5 sec period, anything can happen. You can't go bananza with 8k spirit.

    Dunno, need more incentive to push a mandatory 6 sec non-healing button.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Pasture View Post
    So do SS and EF need buffs or SH nerfs?
    SS and EF needs buffs. The major difference between the 3 talents is that SH allows you to lose up to 9k spirit and spend it in haste and crit instead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Smag View Post
    blablalba
    You litterally have no idea what you are talking about. SH is so much better than the other talents you have no idea. You dont need a shaman but it helps and you can drop an aditional 1-2k spirit if you have one, 10k spirit is more than enough without a resto shaman asuming you have LMG.

    Yes you can spam HR if its needed (for short periods) and the extra stats spend on haste and crit will make the HR's you cast a lot better than the ones of a SS or EF build. A SS build does not help you during burst sessions at all, you will have to decide whether or not to cast SS and for every second you delay it, it is a huge loss of hps.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Smag View Post
    First off, we have already a lot on our plate encounter wise to also track judgement (and you have to use it off GCD to make it work) and weave in rotations.
    To be fair it will have the exact same cooldown as HS. You will always judge and then HS immediately after. It won't be any harder to track then HS because we'll always use the two one after another. Of course, having two abilities with less than a 6 second cooldown that you have to use on cooldown every time isn't a great style. Further argument for a 15 second judge / 3HP / full SH stack for Holy (yes i know I won't shut up about it).

    Forth, OMFG situations that are usually the synonym of progression. When sh't hits the fan, your metodical SH stacks buildups usually go out of the window. And here is when an ability to mindlessly spam things is the key. Sure, SH stacks boost hps, but in a 6-5 sec period, anything can happen. You can't go bananza with 8k spirit.
    It depends how much spirit you have. If you go for more of a happy medium on spirit (which I suspect people will have to on progression) you can adopt a mana neutral SH rotation and when you need extra spam into the high hps rotation.

  7. #67
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    So from what I can see, there won't be any sort of haste 'soft cap' for SH builds, because spell haste will always run away from melee haste due to SoI.

    The only exception is once a 4s HS has been achieved, but as voidspark said that puts us way over the haste requirement for a 1s GCD and the haste required would be much better utilised as mastery.

    I'm really not looking forward to our clunky rotation should everything go live as it is currently.

  8. #68
    Would a judgement without gcd be to good? Main reason why i dislike SH is because judgement takes up so much time of your <6 seconds rotation..

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Corrupt View Post
    Would a judgement without gcd be to good? Main reason why i dislike SH is because judgement takes up so much time of your <6 seconds rotation..
    It would just be put into a judge focus target macro for all our healing abilities. They won't allow that.

  10. #70
    @bouchbagette
    Nice spreadsheet but there are some big mistakes in the "example" one, and you didn't post your stats in the main one so there's no way to tell if it's correct or not but if you used the same formulas it will most likely be wrong too.
    For example you have listed 44.26% haste and a HS-J-HR-LoD rotation that lasts 4.41 seconds when in fact the rotation at the haste would last 4.729(+0.071 until HS is ready again). That is a very big difference and will skew the numbers a lot, also you list the global as being 1.04 when in fact it's 1.20 at that haste.
    Most of the raw healing you calculated right but there are mistakes in the "Total Effective" column, you can PM me and I can tell you what's wrong as it takes to long to list here.

    25 man scaling:
    Ok so i posted some time ago that we need one of our spells to scale for 25 man in order to keep up and after testing the first 4 bosses on Flex mode i believe it is the only way to keep us competitive. Our shaman absolutely destroyed everyone on most attempts, hugged or not and we had 3 paladins in the raid and 1 disc so you can throw the "shields are op" argument out the window. I'm afraid that if it goes live like this there is no reason to bring a paladin over a shaman to any 25 man raid, our disc priest also managed to keep up without any addons and no 4 set so yeah...

    Can't comment on how we stand against Druids since we didn't have one in the raid and the monk nerfs have not yet been reverted.

    The problem on 25 man is that every other class scales up while we scale down because our IH has a much bigger chance to fall off than on 10.
    So any ideas for 25 man scaling? Only thing I can think of is LoD on 8 targets.
    Last edited by Kolori; 2013-07-29 at 05:15 PM.


  11. #71
    http://fullspectrumholypally.files.w...et-example.png is pretty wrong anyway

    The overheal average of LoD is absolutely insane, you're not serious if you think LoD overheals as much as the EF HoT.
    The overheal average of SS is too low, with 3 targets the spell overheals like its not funny unless ideal conditions.
    37.8% mastery is far from my ptr 59.2% mastery with 1 amplification trinket, and even more far when 4 set is active.

    @ Kolori.I suspect Blizzard's problem with bumping LoD to 8 targets is that it kills EF/SS even further.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Kolori View Post
    So any ideas for 25 man scaling? Only thing I can think of is LoD on 8 targets.
    I think we're going the wrong way. They need to scale all those abilities back down. They opened a can of worms in the first place by scaling up for 25s. Everyone will want it on everything. The more abilities get it the more abilities people will ask for it on. It's a bad path. In 10 LoD from 1 pally hits 6 targets. In 25 LoD from 2 pallies hits 12 players. That's how it's supposed to work. We're supposed to have extra healers healing, not individual healers doing extra healing.

    In 6.0 they need to either scale everything back down or else scale literally everything up and massively ramp up damage on 25s or drop healers required to 4.

    Regardless, I don't think we'll get scaled up in 25s and I don't think we should either. There are better ways to buff us or before we know it WG and CoH will be hitting 12 targets too and we'll be back to square one.

  13. #73
    We're going into Flex for our raid tonight. I'm currently set up with 4pc, legendary cloak, amplify trinket and the spirit proc one that degrades over time. I have almost exactly 10k spirit and 59% mastery. Planning on using SH unless that's not actually the right thing to do?

    Any advice?
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  14. #74
    Oh didn't take into account that 8 target LoD would mean the end of the other 2 talents, you are right it won't happen, need some new ideas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyrotten View Post
    We're going into Flex for our raid tonight. I'm currently set up with 4pc, legendary cloak, amplify trinket and the spirit proc one that degrades over time. I have almost exactly 10k spirit and 59% mastery. Planning on using SH unless that's not actually the right thing to do?

    Any advice?
    It scales down to 506ilvl so when I went in I had 4.9k spirit, needed to go out and reforge again. Think 10k spirit outside will scale to about 5.5k inside so probably want more.


  15. #75
    I wouldn't mind seeing some SS logs on some of the more SS appropriate fights but I get the feeling testing will all be SH from herein.

  16. #76
    Felt pretty decent about where my numbers were compared to our priests and druids during flex testing, will be interesting to see where MW's are, and where Shaman end up after they get "balanced" in 25's.

    Numbers were fine, but the spec is still not very engaging/fun. LoD spam is just a little to mindless - gonna be a long tier with the current incarnation of the spec.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Pasture View Post
    I wouldn't mind seeing some SS logs on some of the more SS appropriate fights but I get the feeling testing will all be SH from herein.
    SS could really benefit from a longer duration. Double the amount of the shield, double the duration, halve the ticks.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyrotten View Post
    We're going into Flex for our raid tonight. I'm currently set up with 4pc, legendary cloak, amplify trinket and the spirit proc one that degrades over time. I have almost exactly 10k spirit and 59% mastery. Planning on using SH unless that's not actually the right thing to do?

    Any advice?
    As Kolori said you need a lot more spirit, I think I had 13 or 14k outside after I did apropriate reforging for ilvl 506.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Kolori View Post
    @bouchbagette
    Nice spreadsheet but there are some big mistakes in the "example" one, and you didn't post your stats in the main one so there's no way to tell if it's correct or not but if you used the same formulas it will most likely be wrong too.
    For example you have listed 44.26% haste and a HS-J-HR-LoD rotation that lasts 4.41 seconds when in fact the rotation at the haste would last 4.729(+0.071 until HS is ready again). That is a very big difference and will skew the numbers a lot, also you list the global as being 1.04 when in fact it's 1.20 at that haste.
    Most of the raw healing you calculated right but there are mistakes in the "Total Effective" column, you can PM me and I can tell you what's wrong as it takes to long to list here.

    25 man scaling:
    Ok so i posted some time ago that we need one of our spells to scale for 25 man in order to keep up and after testing the first 4 bosses on Flex mode i believe it is the only way to keep us competitive. Our shaman absolutely destroyed everyone on most attempts, hugged or not and we had 3 paladins in the raid and 1 disc so you can throw the "shields are op" argument out the window. I'm afraid that if it goes live like this there is no reason to bring a paladin over a shaman to any 25 man raid, our disc priest also managed to keep up without any addons and no 4 set so yeah...

    Can't comment on how we stand against Druids since we didn't have one in the raid and the monk nerfs have not yet been reverted.

    The problem on 25 man is that every other class scales up while we scale down because our IH has a much bigger chance to fall off than on 10.
    So any ideas for 25 man scaling? Only thing I can think of is LoD on 8 targets.
    Yea in 25m Holy paladin is prob the weakest healer if it goes live like this. And I doubt they will change any mechanics at this point. The only thing they will do is tweak the numbers, but I doubt that will happen either.

  19. #79
    Thanks for the tip about spirit! That would have annoyed me greatly.
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  20. #80
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kolori View Post
    For example you have listed 44.26% haste and a HS-J-HR-LoD rotation that lasts 4.41 seconds when in fact the rotation at the haste would last 4.729(+0.071 until HS is ready again). That is a very big difference and will skew the numbers a lot, also you list the global as being 1.04 when in fact it's 1.20 at that haste.
    I'm pretty sure his numbers are actually correct (also personally I average out with Infusion though it really doesn't make a significant average difference). The rotation is throttled by HS cooldown so I will note that.

    i.e. 1.5 second base GCD divided by 1 + 44.26% spell haste gives 1.5/1.4426 = 1.04 second GCD. Now the GCD of Judgment would not be that though.

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