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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by boombeef View Post
    Well let's hope for less dependence on trinkets next tier as far as balance tweaks.
    bet they just buff our tier bonus to make up for it lol

  2. #202
    Dreadlord vmagik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forswear View Post
    The only way out I see for unholy is them allowing scourge strike's shadow portion to crit again.

    Buffing the unholy might would drag PvP balance issues into this mess.
    The problem is the shadow portion is based on the physical portion, meaning when the physical portion crits the shadow portion does more damage - it just doesn't register as a crit. Having the shadow portion being able to crit means it's double dipping, potentially quadrupling the damage of a normal attack.

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by vmagik View Post
    The problem is the shadow portion is based on the physical portion, meaning when the physical portion crits the shadow portion does more damage - it just doesn't register as a crit. Having the shadow portion being able to crit means it's double dipping, potentially quadrupling the damage of a normal attack.
    And that would increase our scaling with mastery, crit and weapon dmg and with being a dps increase also str and haste to some degree and this is what we actually need a scaling buff and this is something we just don't get by only getting % dmg buffs to already existing abilities or passives.

    I just looked at fire mage gearscaling as an excessive example and für comparison in growth. A fire mage gains the double up to triple amount of dps per stat in comparison to unholy or frost. (used my profile with 547 and a fire mage with 548)
    Double dipping mechanics are a easy tool to compensate gear scaling problems, although only a temporary fix.
    rppm trinkets showed this pretty much and also pushed our stat scaling by a good amount, also through festerblight though.

    Every fix that is just a flat buff will cause problems in pvp because we perform way better on lower ilvls in comparison. Even if a buff which makes us even with most dps is probably not enough as many specs just scale essentially better and we'll be left behind again.
    We don't have any relevant breakpoints where stats give an explosive boost, our stats don't interact with each other mechanic wise and with this they just diminish further and further in percentual effectiveness and even dmg each others worth for frost.

    So in short, i find this an appealing idea atleast for now, as it is a buff which affects our gear scaling in a positive way.
    http://www.wow-heroes.com/character/eu/Azshara/raikh/

    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Raikh/advanced

    Humans love to hate. They neither have to think nor to understand to hate something or someone and still they find a cause and solution for their problems.

  4. #204
    Comparing cross class is unwise and unreliable. Using simcraft to derive your own stat weights is fine but comparing us to a fire mage isn't wise.

    Can we also stop the scaling argument? The evidence for it just isn't there. The best evidence that could be provided would be comparing in a mass evaluation of logs, an entry level ToT fire mage to an entry level dk and and a BIS version of both and compare the difference but these comparisons cannot happen. Maybe if 5.3 hit without any class changes to either spec we could make an argument for scaling but thats not what happened.

    When 5.2 hit I was topping the meters on nearly every fight. As an example, I was beating our enhance shaman consistently. Currently I am not on most fights. Is that scaling? Not really. its me having less gear than my raid members and them being buffed whist me being nerfed during 5.3. Scaling is a scary word for people to throw around.

    What letting the shadow portion of scourge strike crit does is overvalue crit for pvp. Every single pvp death knight would prioritize crit in the hopes of scoring some godly luck and globaling someone and our damage is already good if not too good.

  5. #205
    scourge strike does so low dmg in pvp that its laughable its no frost 2h obliterate which crits for 100k anyway. ss does like what, 30k dmg critical? maybe 40k with all proccs up? Theres a reason nectrotic is the to go for ability for deathrunes.
    We do high consistent dmg due to ghoul + dots + necrotic, with deathcoils in between, ss hits like a wet noodle.

    Cross class comparison is whats essential for tuning, comparison in growth is needed comparing frost and unholy gets you nothing as beside resource system they rely on different core mechanics resulting in different stat values and scaling like with any other class.

    Also you showed a clear indicator and used the worst example possible to justify its uselesness. compare frost dk which didn't get a nerf (even a buff in 5.2) and fire mage which stayed unchanged towards ToT.
    Fire mage had ~138k dps in t14 BiS + upgrades
    Frost 2h had ~120k dps in t14 BiS + upgrades.

    Resulting in fire mages doing 15% more dmg than frost 2h dks.

    Now we look at t15 BiS from 5.2

    Fire Mage: ~245k dps
    Frost dk: ~200k dps

    Resulting in Fire mage doing 22,5% more dmg than frost dks. Being an effective increase of 50%in difference.
    While SImcraft is a model its single target models have gotten damn accurate which reflects pretty well if you look at logs for encounters which come close to the simulation in design, the results are pretty similar granting it strength in actual arguments.
    Making this an effective indication of scaling difference.

    You don't even need numbers to make that out. Frosts stats a visibly hostile to each other as i explained in an extra long post before on the respective discussions, while again for example the fire mages stats boosting each other up, because they interact with each other, especially through comubstion. The inevitable result is frost gaining less from gear than the fire mage and as gear scaling also increases from doing more dps the gap gets bigger and bigger, making straight buffs to the weaker scaler futile.

    Now you can say, frost dk is melee and hybrid, mage is range and pure, you can say that they're different classes and bring different things to the table. But they do the same job and fill the same slot: dmg dealer.
    We can discuss all day long how it is and how it should be, how blizz is looking at it and how numbers are relative and simcraft doesn't sim real fights, how raidbots only shows the best numbers and and and, but it will never bring us to the core problem which lies within scaling, its the ultimate device to control pve and pvp damage at the same time and securing a halfway balanced strength of dmg dealers across an expansion.

    To be clear this problem only exists on the stages of heroic raids and actually wearing heroic gear and the only possible reason for a class to lose only in heroic gear to another, while performing similar on normal gear across the board, is scaling.
    http://www.wow-heroes.com/character/eu/Azshara/raikh/

    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Raikh/advanced

    Humans love to hate. They neither have to think nor to understand to hate something or someone and still they find a cause and solution for their problems.

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by vmagik View Post
    The problem is the shadow portion is based on the physical portion, meaning when the physical portion crits the shadow portion does more damage - it just doesn't register as a crit. Having the shadow portion being able to crit means it's double dipping, potentially quadrupling the damage of a normal attack.
    That's exactly the point,the last time they enabled it was during ToGC and if memory serves me right,the only reason they took it out was because of the mechanics on Twin Valks allowing 600k crits.

    It wouldn't affect PvP much too,the same as in the past.

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by Raikh View Post
    So in short, i find this an appealing idea atleast for now, as it is a buff which affects our gear scaling in a positive way.
    Actually, I agree with you totally. It would also make Festerblight less interesting, no?

  8. #208
    Making the shadow portion of ss crit won't happen. Just make the entire strike shadow. Pretty much fixes all of unholy's issues.

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by Rothulean View Post
    Making the shadow portion of ss crit won't happen. Just make the entire strike shadow. Pretty much fixes all of unholy's issues.
    As a mastery stacking dk im all for more shadow damage (I LOVE that gary scales with it) but I fail to see how this would fix everything

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by Rothulean View Post
    Making the shadow portion of ss crit won't happen. Just make the entire strike shadow. Pretty much fixes all of unholy's issues.
    then our only ability that scales with weapon dmg would be festering (and white hits...), not sure if thats a wise sollution

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by schleimhaut View Post
    then our only ability that scales with weapon dmg would be festering (and white hits...), not sure if thats a wise sollution
    Frost strike is based on weapon damage but deals frost damage. This wouldn't hurt weapon scaling.

  12. #212
    I am Murloc! Mokoshne's Avatar
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    UH is pretty fun to play, especially with ghouls and pets etc.
    check out my latest podcast episode, I broke my ankle

  13. #213
    Is this enough to make LFR RPPM trinkets better than Brutal Talisman? Or even 522 RPPM trinkets?

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by INecrosiSI View Post
    Is this enough to make LFR RPPM trinkets better than Brutal Talisman? Or even 522 RPPM trinkets?
    LFR Feather was already better than SPA trinket I thought. Not sure if the change will make it worse though.

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Rothulean View Post
    Making the shadow portion of ss crit won't happen. Just make the entire strike shadow. Pretty much fixes all of unholy's issues.
    Then you'll start getting the same PvP issues from wrath again. They chose to split up the strike for a good reason.

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by Maxweii View Post
    As a mastery stacking dk im all for more shadow damage (I LOVE that gary scales with it) but I fail to see how this would fix everything
    Improves weapon and mastery scaling. Both areas where unholy suffers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forswear View Post
    Then you'll start getting the same PvP issues from wrath again. They chose to split up the strike for a good reason.
    Frost isnt having pvp issues due to frost strike. Why would Unholy? And SS being split up had nothing to do with pvp. It was split up because of armor penetration.
    Last edited by Rothulean; 2013-08-05 at 02:59 AM.

  17. #217
    I Have my bets up that they wont do anything cause they think dks are fine, which is just retarded.

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by Rothulean View Post
    Improves weapon and mastery scaling. Both areas where unholy suffers.



    Frost isnt having pvp issues due to frost strike. Why would Unholy? And SS being split up had nothing to do with pvp. It was split up because of armor penetration.
    The issue I see is that we would continue to have our constant pressure through dots, ghoul, necro strike then increase the overall damage of unholy and it could get ugly. The people who think dk's are viable forget to realize we are only viable due to NS, we usually need a bursty partner to do all the hard work and all we are technically there for is stuns, interupts, and NS. I'm all for buffing both specs though I just think they won't do much because they don't want to have another season five where Dk's are that overtuned(which even with buffs we'd still never reach that level of stupidness). We need something, and really badly but personally I'm not expecting much.

  19. #219
    I know LFR Feather is better than Shado-Pan, I'm asking if this makes trinkets like 502 Spark or 502 Rage better than Brutal Talisman.

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by INecrosiSI View Post
    I know LFR Feather is better than Shado-Pan, I'm asking if this makes trinkets like 502 Spark or 502 Rage better than Brutal Talisman.
    spark is crap for unholy as it will never line up properly. From personal experience the LFR Rage wasn't as good as the SPA trinket.

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