I just looked at fire mage gearscaling as an excessive example and für comparison in growth. A fire mage gains the double up to triple amount of dps per stat in comparison to unholy or frost. (used my profile with 547 and a fire mage with 548)
Double dipping mechanics are a easy tool to compensate gear scaling problems, although only a temporary fix.
rppm trinkets showed this pretty much and also pushed our stat scaling by a good amount, also through festerblight though.
Every fix that is just a flat buff will cause problems in pvp because we perform way better on lower ilvls in comparison. Even if a buff which makes us even with most dps is probably not enough as many specs just scale essentially better and we'll be left behind again.
We don't have any relevant breakpoints where stats give an explosive boost, our stats don't interact with each other mechanic wise and with this they just diminish further and further in percentual effectiveness and even dmg each others worth for frost.
So in short, i find this an appealing idea atleast for now, as it is a buff which affects our gear scaling in a positive way.
Comparing cross class is unwise and unreliable. Using simcraft to derive your own stat weights is fine but comparing us to a fire mage isn't wise.
Can we also stop the scaling argument? The evidence for it just isn't there. The best evidence that could be provided would be comparing in a mass evaluation of logs, an entry level ToT fire mage to an entry level dk and and a BIS version of both and compare the difference but these comparisons cannot happen. Maybe if 5.3 hit without any class changes to either spec we could make an argument for scaling but thats not what happened.
When 5.2 hit I was topping the meters on nearly every fight. As an example, I was beating our enhance shaman consistently. Currently I am not on most fights. Is that scaling? Not really. its me having less gear than my raid members and them being buffed whist me being nerfed during 5.3. Scaling is a scary word for people to throw around.
What letting the shadow portion of scourge strike crit does is overvalue crit for pvp. Every single pvp death knight would prioritize crit in the hopes of scoring some godly luck and globaling someone and our damage is already good if not too good.
scourge strike does so low dmg in pvp that its laughable its no frost 2h obliterate which crits for 100k anyway. ss does like what, 30k dmg critical? maybe 40k with all proccs up? Theres a reason nectrotic is the to go for ability for deathrunes.
We do high consistent dmg due to ghoul + dots + necrotic, with deathcoils in between, ss hits like a wet noodle.
Cross class comparison is whats essential for tuning, comparison in growth is needed comparing frost and unholy gets you nothing as beside resource system they rely on different core mechanics resulting in different stat values and scaling like with any other class.
Also you showed a clear indicator and used the worst example possible to justify its uselesness. compare frost dk which didn't get a nerf (even a buff in 5.2) and fire mage which stayed unchanged towards ToT.
Fire mage had ~138k dps in t14 BiS + upgrades
Frost 2h had ~120k dps in t14 BiS + upgrades.
Resulting in fire mages doing 15% more dmg than frost 2h dks.
Now we look at t15 BiS from 5.2
Fire Mage: ~245k dps
Frost dk: ~200k dps
Resulting in Fire mage doing 22,5% more dmg than frost dks. Being an effective increase of 50%in difference.
While SImcraft is a model its single target models have gotten damn accurate which reflects pretty well if you look at logs for encounters which come close to the simulation in design, the results are pretty similar granting it strength in actual arguments.
Making this an effective indication of scaling difference.
You don't even need numbers to make that out. Frosts stats a visibly hostile to each other as i explained in an extra long post before on the respective discussions, while again for example the fire mages stats boosting each other up, because they interact with each other, especially through comubstion. The inevitable result is frost gaining less from gear than the fire mage and as gear scaling also increases from doing more dps the gap gets bigger and bigger, making straight buffs to the weaker scaler futile.
Now you can say, frost dk is melee and hybrid, mage is range and pure, you can say that they're different classes and bring different things to the table. But they do the same job and fill the same slot: dmg dealer.
We can discuss all day long how it is and how it should be, how blizz is looking at it and how numbers are relative and simcraft doesn't sim real fights, how raidbots only shows the best numbers and and and, but it will never bring us to the core problem which lies within scaling, its the ultimate device to control pve and pvp damage at the same time and securing a halfway balanced strength of dmg dealers across an expansion.
To be clear this problem only exists on the stages of heroic raids and actually wearing heroic gear and the only possible reason for a class to lose only in heroic gear to another, while performing similar on normal gear across the board, is scaling.
Making the shadow portion of ss crit won't happen. Just make the entire strike shadow. Pretty much fixes all of unholy's issues.
UH is pretty fun to play, especially with ghouls and pets etc.
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Is this enough to make LFR RPPM trinkets better than Brutal Talisman? Or even 522 RPPM trinkets?
Last edited by Rothulean; 2013-08-05 at 02:59 AM.
I Have my bets up that they wont do anything cause they think dks are fine, which is just retarded.
I know LFR Feather is better than Shado-Pan, I'm asking if this makes trinkets like 502 Spark or 502 Rage better than Brutal Talisman.