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  1. #201
    Totally disagree. Vengeance provided exactly 1 benefit, it allowed tank damage to scale as players progressed through content. But it was a totally backward way of doing it, it made tank damage way higher than dps damage at the beginning of tiers, encouraged weird play (standing in fire), made tank swaps difficult, etc.

    Now, that benefit is not even needed for 3-4 of the 5 tanks. Monks, Paladins, Druids, and warriors to a degree all prefer dps stats to tank stats, so they are already scaling as they progress in a natural way (i.e. through gear, the same way dps scales). Not to mention the fact that they also gave tanks 500% threat, so there wasn't really a need for great damage scaling.

    DKs are the only tanks left that need any sort of help from vengeance to scale their damage as they progress.

    Vengeance caused a lot of problems that do way more than scratch the surface of gameplay, they alter it in huge ways. And it provided only a meager benefit, and now provides almost no benefit at all.

  2. #202
    Mechagnome Italiandk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raikh View Post
    Thats just untrue.
    Tell me another positive side that vengeance brought beside the one you already said (tanks being able to do some good numbers).

    I agree with you that vengeance should add more dps to tanks so they can feel useful for the raid but at the moment is totally out of control and this kind of problem led people to care too much on tank dps: when tank were doing ridiculus dps none cared about them, now it's a matter of life and death and this is totally wrong.

    But I feel we are a bit OT now... Weren't we talking about UH and bugged RC? XD
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  3. #203
    Thats from an old way of view and was mainly cataclysms point of vengeance, but they've changed vengeance and made it intentionally stronger and also said that they're fine with tanks doing somewhat high dmg, they shouldn't just outperform dds completely, which is a result of too much vengeance and the introduction of dps stats as mechanic triggers for tanks but it will make things ultimately more convenient and will be tuned according to that.

    Chnage alters things, but this game changes constantly in every direction it fits the growth of tank game play, which was really dull just a few years ago compared to today.
    Just as class mechanics getting renewed and redesigned, role mechanics get their upgrades.
    You can just view it from an older perspective, but that won't help you or anyone else, the good old days are no convincing feedback for a game that lives from steady change. Without bringing fresh wind here and then this game wouldn't last as long as it did. The completely new experience which brought this game so far up vanishes with the time and so new means are needed.

    The core point is fun, balance is nothing compared to fun in a game, only when balance disrupts fun it has to be tuned and that will happen and is already happening. For your example of tank swaps was already added a shorttime threat multiplier which makes tankswaps way easier and 50% vengeance on taunt was added already a good way back.

    Also from my experience are dks more independant of vengeance as other tanks, we have minimum heal and we have dmg based on our weapon, not only our ap, our vengeance scaling is on the contrary worse than for them, thats what our problem as tanks currently is, we don't scale as good with vengeance as other tanks, so we don't get any additonal help out of it in comparison.

    edit:
    @italiandk
    Its somewhat OT but its not really important where we are discussing this stuff, the whole sub forum could be a giant thread in terms of discussion as everything comes together somewhere, the result is important. And the thread itself is pretty mucn done, we can just wait and eventually provide feedback and see whats coming for us.
    And yes tank dps might be too important currently or just too much of a convenience, but its not the totally wrong direction.
    Last edited by Raikh; 2013-07-31 at 01:17 PM.
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  4. #204
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    We don't scale at all with vengeance. Warriors get higher shield barriers, druids will heal more, protection paladins will heal more, and monks will heal more (plus shield the raid for higher numbers). Our only gain from vengeance is flat damage, which honestly seems completely intended.

    I think having worthwhile damage makes tanking a lot more fun. I really don't care for doing absurdly high damage compared to damage dealers though, nor do I care for what I consider an abuse of the vengeance system by purposely standing in shit. That however is currently part of the meta game of tank DPS and we unfortunately have to do it. If it's going to be nerfed I'd rather it be changed for ALL tanks. I wouldn't care as much about my DPS compared to other tanks if other tanks weren't doing more damage than me while I am seen as gearing/gemming sub-optimally for my spec, while they get away with having the best of both worlds (damage dealing stats increasing mitigation, and taking more damage for more vengeance equating to better healing/survival for the raid).

    Yes I know this is OT but vengeance is completely dumb in it's current iteration. The cataclysm model was probably the best model but it was scrapped because it made off-tanking difficult as it would take some time to build up vengeance and it made tank swaps annoying. Currently we have the exact same model but with even higher numbers making tank swaps just as difficult. However in the next build we are getting a massive threat boost on taunt to pretty much alleviate the issue altogether.

    I really think capped vengeance based on our health (5/10/15% whatever) scaling up more like the cataclysm model (but faster) with the new taunt change would probably be the best source of action. I know they are putting caps in for vengeance in the next patch, but the health cap is still too high IMO. With a low to mid ground number that you're ALWAYS going to reach you won't see people doing what I conceive as stupid in order to cap vengeance. 30% of my stamina is still something like 240-250k AP granted by vengeance. Heroic Lei Shen typically grants me a bit over 100k AP without doing something I shouldn't be doing. With the potential for 100-150k more AP to be gained, rest assured we are still going to be looking for ways to take more damage in order to do more damage.

    That's really my only legitimate gripe with vengeance. Our lack of scaling (and/or other tanks scaling with it) and abusive behavior in order to game it.

  5. #205
    Mechagnome Italiandk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raikh View Post
    Thats from an old way of view and was mainly cataclysms point of vengeance, but they've changed vengeance and made it intentionally stronger and also said that they're fine with tanks doing somewhat high dmg, they shouldn't just outperform dds completely, which is a result of too much vengeance and the introduction of dps stats as mechanic triggers for tanks but it will make things ultimately more convenient and will be tuned according to that.
    Just because something is intended it doesn't mean it can't be wrong... And by the way I don't think they should bring back old days, I'm just saying that vengeance, at the moment, needs some balance and I just gave an example of what I consider a better design.

    For the fun part you are just looking from the tank side: don't forget that a lot of dps that are being outdpsed by tanks aren't having fun that much :P
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  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by vmagik View Post
    Just speaking from personal experience - I generally play "apply diseases when they're strong and then keep them rolling until the next opportunity to use outbreak on strong procs" type unholy nowadays with a pretty normal rotation in between... In that scenario there's likely not going to be much of a DPS hit (relative to other classes). True festerblight that applies diseases at the start of the fight with every proc available alongside synapse springs/pot will likely be dead.
    Time until proc varies very heavily based upon your true haste.

    I've made a simple graph (link at end) for probabilities after 10s into the fight. To figure out where you should look, calculate your true haste that you'd expect at the pull.

    E.g., Unholy with Feather, UP (with PTR fix), UF, Heroism, and 25% haste from haste rating
    True Haste = 1.20 * 1.20 * 1.30 * 1.25 = 2.34
    Base RPPM = 0.616

    So for the x-axis, you would look at 0.616 * 2.34 = 1.44, which corresponds to a probability of 12.10% for feather to NOT have procced by 10s into the fight. Note that having Heroism or not having Heroism for the first strike (t=0s) is a major factor. In the case used above, if the DK did not have Heroism, then you'll look at 1.11 on the x-axis, which corresponds to a probability of 51.72% for Feather to NOT have procced.

    Increasing your time range will shift the graph down and to the left (i.e., as more time passes, you are less likely to not have procced Feather). Conversely, shortening the time range will shift the graph up and to the right, since there's a higher chance that Feather will not have procced.

    Graph:
    http://i.imgur.com/pXHkmgb.jpg

    edit: Note that this applies to any trinket and any spec, not just Feather and Unholy.
    Last edited by SSHA778; 2013-07-31 at 03:44 PM.
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  7. #207
    Will this stay the same with the trinket change? does people still think UH will be "SO" much better than frost?

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by Rashi View Post
    Will this stay the same with the trinket change? does people still think UH will be "SO" much better than frost?
    Depends on how well they compensate unholy for the nerf. Its kind of hard to do considering unholy is a pretty strong spec for pvp. They'd run the risk of making dks the fotm class. However they need to compensate frost as well with the number tuning. There's no reason a dps spec should be behind a tank spec and iirc protection pallets are doing more dps than frost dks. If the buffs aren't too significant we'll see another tier being the bottom but instead of one spec it will be both.

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by valliant13 View Post
    Depends on how well they compensate unholy for the nerf. Its kind of hard to do considering unholy is a pretty strong spec for pvp. They'd run the risk of making dks the fotm class. However they need to compensate frost as well with the number tuning. There's no reason a dps spec should be behind a tank spec and iirc protection pallets are doing more dps than frost dks. If the buffs aren't too significant we'll see another tier being the bottom but instead of one spec it will be both.
    While unholy isn't bad in PVP and a large DPS buff could push them into OP status in PVP, frost absolutely sinks in both PVE and PVP. Buffing its PVE damage significantly would do nothing more than turn it into a glass cannon in PVP, and there are already plenty of specs like that. Unholy though, they are going to have to find a way to increase its PVE damage only.

  10. #210
    The only way out I see for unholy is them allowing scourge strike's shadow portion to crit again.

    Buffing the unholy might would drag PvP balance issues into this mess.

  11. #211
    Well let's hope for less dependence on trinkets next tier as far as balance tweaks.
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  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by boombeef View Post
    Well let's hope for less dependence on trinkets next tier as far as balance tweaks.
    bet they just buff our tier bonus to make up for it lol

  13. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forswear View Post
    The only way out I see for unholy is them allowing scourge strike's shadow portion to crit again.

    Buffing the unholy might would drag PvP balance issues into this mess.
    The problem is the shadow portion is based on the physical portion, meaning when the physical portion crits the shadow portion does more damage - it just doesn't register as a crit. Having the shadow portion being able to crit means it's double dipping, potentially quadrupling the damage of a normal attack.
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  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by vmagik View Post
    The problem is the shadow portion is based on the physical portion, meaning when the physical portion crits the shadow portion does more damage - it just doesn't register as a crit. Having the shadow portion being able to crit means it's double dipping, potentially quadrupling the damage of a normal attack.
    And that would increase our scaling with mastery, crit and weapon dmg and with being a dps increase also str and haste to some degree and this is what we actually need a scaling buff and this is something we just don't get by only getting % dmg buffs to already existing abilities or passives.

    I just looked at fire mage gearscaling as an excessive example and für comparison in growth. A fire mage gains the double up to triple amount of dps per stat in comparison to unholy or frost. (used my profile with 547 and a fire mage with 548)
    Double dipping mechanics are a easy tool to compensate gear scaling problems, although only a temporary fix.
    rppm trinkets showed this pretty much and also pushed our stat scaling by a good amount, also through festerblight though.

    Every fix that is just a flat buff will cause problems in pvp because we perform way better on lower ilvls in comparison. Even if a buff which makes us even with most dps is probably not enough as many specs just scale essentially better and we'll be left behind again.
    We don't have any relevant breakpoints where stats give an explosive boost, our stats don't interact with each other mechanic wise and with this they just diminish further and further in percentual effectiveness and even dmg each others worth for frost.

    So in short, i find this an appealing idea atleast for now, as it is a buff which affects our gear scaling in a positive way.
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  15. #215
    Comparing cross class is unwise and unreliable. Using simcraft to derive your own stat weights is fine but comparing us to a fire mage isn't wise.

    Can we also stop the scaling argument? The evidence for it just isn't there. The best evidence that could be provided would be comparing in a mass evaluation of logs, an entry level ToT fire mage to an entry level dk and and a BIS version of both and compare the difference but these comparisons cannot happen. Maybe if 5.3 hit without any class changes to either spec we could make an argument for scaling but thats not what happened.

    When 5.2 hit I was topping the meters on nearly every fight. As an example, I was beating our enhance shaman consistently. Currently I am not on most fights. Is that scaling? Not really. its me having less gear than my raid members and them being buffed whist me being nerfed during 5.3. Scaling is a scary word for people to throw around.

    What letting the shadow portion of scourge strike crit does is overvalue crit for pvp. Every single pvp death knight would prioritize crit in the hopes of scoring some godly luck and globaling someone and our damage is already good if not too good.

  16. #216
    scourge strike does so low dmg in pvp that its laughable its no frost 2h obliterate which crits for 100k anyway. ss does like what, 30k dmg critical? maybe 40k with all proccs up? Theres a reason nectrotic is the to go for ability for deathrunes.
    We do high consistent dmg due to ghoul + dots + necrotic, with deathcoils in between, ss hits like a wet noodle.

    Cross class comparison is whats essential for tuning, comparison in growth is needed comparing frost and unholy gets you nothing as beside resource system they rely on different core mechanics resulting in different stat values and scaling like with any other class.

    Also you showed a clear indicator and used the worst example possible to justify its uselesness. compare frost dk which didn't get a nerf (even a buff in 5.2) and fire mage which stayed unchanged towards ToT.
    Fire mage had ~138k dps in t14 BiS + upgrades
    Frost 2h had ~120k dps in t14 BiS + upgrades.

    Resulting in fire mages doing 15% more dmg than frost 2h dks.

    Now we look at t15 BiS from 5.2

    Fire Mage: ~245k dps
    Frost dk: ~200k dps

    Resulting in Fire mage doing 22,5% more dmg than frost dks. Being an effective increase of 50%in difference.
    While SImcraft is a model its single target models have gotten damn accurate which reflects pretty well if you look at logs for encounters which come close to the simulation in design, the results are pretty similar granting it strength in actual arguments.
    Making this an effective indication of scaling difference.

    You don't even need numbers to make that out. Frosts stats a visibly hostile to each other as i explained in an extra long post before on the respective discussions, while again for example the fire mages stats boosting each other up, because they interact with each other, especially through comubstion. The inevitable result is frost gaining less from gear than the fire mage and as gear scaling also increases from doing more dps the gap gets bigger and bigger, making straight buffs to the weaker scaler futile.

    Now you can say, frost dk is melee and hybrid, mage is range and pure, you can say that they're different classes and bring different things to the table. But they do the same job and fill the same slot: dmg dealer.
    We can discuss all day long how it is and how it should be, how blizz is looking at it and how numbers are relative and simcraft doesn't sim real fights, how raidbots only shows the best numbers and and and, but it will never bring us to the core problem which lies within scaling, its the ultimate device to control pve and pvp damage at the same time and securing a halfway balanced strength of dmg dealers across an expansion.

    To be clear this problem only exists on the stages of heroic raids and actually wearing heroic gear and the only possible reason for a class to lose only in heroic gear to another, while performing similar on normal gear across the board, is scaling.
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  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by vmagik View Post
    The problem is the shadow portion is based on the physical portion, meaning when the physical portion crits the shadow portion does more damage - it just doesn't register as a crit. Having the shadow portion being able to crit means it's double dipping, potentially quadrupling the damage of a normal attack.
    That's exactly the point,the last time they enabled it was during ToGC and if memory serves me right,the only reason they took it out was because of the mechanics on Twin Valks allowing 600k crits.

    It wouldn't affect PvP much too,the same as in the past.

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by Raikh View Post
    So in short, i find this an appealing idea atleast for now, as it is a buff which affects our gear scaling in a positive way.
    Actually, I agree with you totally. It would also make Festerblight less interesting, no?

  19. #219
    Making the shadow portion of ss crit won't happen. Just make the entire strike shadow. Pretty much fixes all of unholy's issues.

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by Rothulean View Post
    Making the shadow portion of ss crit won't happen. Just make the entire strike shadow. Pretty much fixes all of unholy's issues.
    As a mastery stacking dk im all for more shadow damage (I LOVE that gary scales with it) but I fail to see how this would fix everything

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