The day the casuals leave, what happens then?

[Osmeric]

Imagine if the bad players took the time that thousands of posts take to actually learn their class. If they learned a priority rotation, haste break points, gemming/reforging and became better players then Normal wouldn't be so hard but improving one's self is considered fail in casual/baddie minds.

While we're constructing pleasant fantasies, let's imagine all that, AND every gets a pony!

Anyone else want to tack on their personal wish here? While we're engaging in pointless wishful thinking, we might as well go all out.

[Glorious Leader]

If someone else plays the game and it is easy doesn't that make the other's who can not, stupid? Bad? Not that smart? Or would you rather use one of the many baddie excuses that are common on here. Instead of getting better whiners/baddies would rather whine on here for hours instead of learning their class, yes you are a smart one.

I mean you can label them but then you have no right to be shocked when they leave. Nor do you have any right to be shocked and upset when the developers make decisions that fit their audience which has far more "bads" then "goods". I don't think I'm a smart one. I can just see past my nose. Meta cognitive reasoning is hard.

[Akka]

You need to read your two posts that you typed out. Wow, way to contradict yourself...

Hu, he was being sarcastic, just so you know...

[Glorious Leader]

The fact that you consider there is any "catering to hardcore" (while the last time it happened was in mid-TBC) is ridiculous in itself.
As for the caricature, your description of who hardcore people are is pretty much a huge one.

Yet if you ask GC or read his twitter he will tell you that raids (specifically heroic raids) have never been harder than before and that's the feed back he's been getting. If you do any sort of digging you start to realize that lots of decisions get made in the interest of that tiny minority of players. Often to the detriment of others.

[Allarius]

You need to read your two posts that you typed out. Wow, way to contradict yourself...

I thought it was pretty obvious that I was applying his logic to his own statement to show just how stupid it was. My apologizes.

You didn't play BC did you? The current system is nothing near what it was. I was referring mainly to catch up gear.

I did actually, and yes it's exactly the same. You do old raids(Whether you're doing it in LFR is irrelevant) to gear up, supplemented by valor(badge) gear. Just because it's in a different form doesn't mean it's not the same mechanic.

Riiiiight...

PVP'er certainly don't give a damn about improving their ability to play, and surely you will never see numbers like 50~ games played/day!
Every single aspect of the game, probably down to things like bloody pet battles has a number of people who take it far more seriously and into

Except the difference is, there's no room for improvement really. It's a simple system designed for fun, with no real thought to adding high skill play. There's only so much you can do. Nothing else in this game compares to the flexibility of raiding and high end pvp(Skill wise).

Even by your own definition Raiders aren't the only hardcore.

I'll give you that, but that's because of poor word choice, which I'll admit was my fault.

*I didn't see you even mention playtime, are you saying that has nothing to do with someone being hardcore?

Actually, I did mention it, and explicitly said that it's bad rhetoric, especially when used by itself.

EDIT: For some reason part of my post disappeared, so in response to the PVP comment, I'll admit that was an oversight of my part. I was so involved in the PVE side while writing that post, that I forgot about PVP for a moment. Some PVP'ers can be hardcore too.

[Glorious Leader]

While we're constructing pleasant fantasies, let's imagine all that, AND every gets a pony!

Anyone else want to tack on their personal wish here? While we're engaging in pointless wishful thinking, we might as well go all out.

You may say that he's a dreamer. But he's not the only one.

Would that they had goals and intentions as noble as lennon. The game and community would be in a far better place.

[Vermicious]

yay... yet another pointless 'what if' thread.

[unholyness]

While we're constructing pleasant fantasies, let's imagine all that, AND every gets a pony!

Anyone else want to tack on their personal wish here? While we're engaging in pointless wishful thinking, we might as well go all out.

Reading many of your past posts whining about content and that baddies should get gear, it is amazing to see a person so bad be so full of them self. Instead of getting better at the game and clearing content you would rather cry on the forums for thousands of posts accomplishing nothing. Get in the game and learn your class and the game is much easier.

It is sad and pathetic to think that a human being wouldn't want to improve themselves but instead would rather bitch/cry for thousands of posts. That is sad.

[Dormie]

His statements are spot on there. The hardcores are the ones showing the entitlement, and have for years. The most honest of them admit they've been catered to all out of proportion to their number. The less honest, or less intelligent, make up rationalizations for that ("good of the game" "hardcores in the majority" "bads deserve to be ignored" etc.)

You see that because your on that side of the fence. I see the same thing about casuals from this side.

[Tomana]

You see that because your on that side of the fence. I see the same thing about casuals from this side.

This doesn't change the fact that for a long while, hardcore gamers were receiving the overwhelming majority of resources, to create content only a minority would see. Like it or not, this model is not defensible.

[Dormie]

Yet if you ask GC or read his twitter he will tell you that raids (specifically heroic raids) have never been harder than before and that's the feed back he's been getting. If you do any sort of digging you start to realize that lots of decisions get made in the interest of that tiny minority of players. Often to the detriment of others.

I bet you can't describe this game as hardcore without bringing up raiding.

[HeedmySpeed]

Well, if we consider strictly from a raiding POV, there are 1246 25 guilds and 12753 10 guilds who downed normal Lei Shen. This amounts to ~158K players (more if you throw in alts). I'm considering Lei Shen because clearing the instance in normal is effectively "seeing it all" if LFR wasn't present. 158K compared to the common US/EU playerbase of ~3M is less than 10%. I'm lowering it to 90% just to make sure.

If LFR wasn't present you'd see more people in raids. I also don't know why you're not including players who spend just as much time as raiders in game doing other stuff as your definition of "hardcore." PvP, pet battles, achieve hunting, transmogging, alt leveling.

OH right because that doesn't help your argument. You should run for congress, you'd be the shit!

[Etrigan]

One could throw the entitlement word around alot. I could say theirs lots of entitled hardcores. I don't think the guy you quoted was entitled though. Or the casuals he is speaking for. Those casuals simple leave. Unlike the hardcores who rage on forums about how this game isn't for them and wtf are they still playing for..

Out of curiosity, you keep complaining that the game is still being tailored for the "hardcore" playerbase. Why don't you leave yourself, and play some Angry Birds or something? I can't even imagine a game suited for you, if you've actually said in this very thread that, LFR is hardcore.

You'll probably just complain that it takes too much time and effort to get 3 stars in an Angry Birds level, therefore they should give out 3 stars for participation/selecting the level.

[unholyness]

Yet if you ask GC or read his twitter he will tell you that raids (specifically heroic raids) have never been harder than before and that's the feed back he's been getting. If you do any sort of digging you start to realize that lots of decisions get made in the interest of that tiny minority of players. Often to the detriment of others.

I am on his Twitter and he also mentioned that there would be no more nerfing like there was before. He realized that people aren't going to get better with 30% nerfed content and gave them Flex which is great because it is far below normal mode and miles away from Heroic, so neither will need to be messed with because of baddies. You see Flex as something given to the casuals/bad's while I see it as Blizz making it so they don't have to Nerf Normal content because it is easy to begin with.

Flex isn't going to help guilds clear Normal so what is there progression? Ilvls far below normal mode will only leave them doing Flex for months especially since Flex is GATED,which seems to not be nice to casuals/bads. GC says one thing and does quite anothing.

[lawow74]

Just came back from a month off actually. I don't have a warped view of reality. I have a much clearer picture of who really is entitled or at least feels entitled to what. The constant whine about the casualification of this game is a MASSIVE expression of the utterly HUGE entitlement complex that so called "hardcores" have over this game. The "casual" changes made to the game have all been made because of player interest, the interest of the AUDIENCE who pays to subscribe to this game.

There's some truth to that, but it's also just one side of the balance. The creation of engagement is important to keeping players chasing in-game goals. The feeling of accomplishment is a difficult one to weight. Some equate it to time investment. Others to rarity. Others to skill. And many mixtures of all three. They try to keep something in all weight ranges, but going too far outside of a range's purview risks throwing everything out of whack.

This isn't an argument for making anything in the game easier or harder. It's to try and give an idea of how much plate-spinning Blizzard has to do in order to keep the show going. People are extremely tunnel-visioned and all cling to their pet peeve as the reason and if that was just fixed everything would be fine. It's far more complex than that, and trying to reduce it down is nothing but wishmongering.

[hulkgor]

Casuals don't leave. They remain casual, and come and go as they please. Hence... casuals.

[Armourboy]

The word your looking for is "correct". Stupid is not a synonym for it. If you can't argue a position because yours is incorrect then I understand why you'd refer to it as stupid. It's a very common thing here on these forums.

- - - Updated - - -



It does now. Or the developers have seen fit to make it so that it does now with the goal of saving that raid content in mind. Personally I'd would have rather they said deuces to raid content and focused on other things.

No it doesn't, at no point has content been a part of the casual/hardcore metric. The only metric Blizzard has ever used to determine that is time played. Essentially if you play less than 10 hours a week you are casual, if you play more than that you are the average joe, if you log in 4-5 hours a night or more every night you are hard core. ( actual numbers made up, its more of a way to define things)

Thats the reason Blizzard has lamented the hardcore/casual debate for so many years. What the player base has decided is hardcore/casual is something far different than Blizzard has actually used over the years.


I will use myself for an example. For most players ( based on raiding metric) I would be considered a casual. I raid sparingly, do lots of leveling and instances, basically a lot of things that kill time. However by Blizzards metric ( Time based) I have been in the hardcore category for most of my playing time. I probably average about 7-8 hours of play time on 3-4 days ( or rather nights) so roughly 20-25 hours a week and at times have been double that.

My example alone is the reason that you can't just stick all non-raiders into one category and call them casual. I'm not all that casual, the true casual players are like one of my friends that logs in on Saturday morning, and maybe Sunday afternoon and that's about it.

[Akka]

Because it isn't very casual friendly. You just have a warped view of what is and isn't casual friendly. It's fine, I understand it's a shock to recognize truly that your perspective is a narrow one.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but you're the one who is completely out of touch with reality.

[Dormie]

This doesn't change the fact that for a long while, hardcore gamers were receiving the overwhelming majority of resources, to create content only a minority would see. Like it or not, this model is not defensible.

BC was a fine model that needed tweeks(something to keep people in their guilds). Wrath had it nailed. Vanilla was probably a bit extreme but it was a new game still getting things sorted out.

What you call hardcore I call realistic. Illidan shouldn't have just any group of people walk in and push him over. He should have integrity, that only comes from him being a challenging badass.

NO ONE is keeping YOU out of end game content but YOU!
UNDERSTAND THAT^

[unholyness]

This doesn't change the fact that for a long while, hardcore gamers were receiving the overwhelming majority of resources, to create content only a minority would see. Like it or not, this model is not defensible.

It doesn't need to be defended. It will always be that way until the game itself dies. Why cater to bads/casuals and the entitled crowd who do nothing but whine and cry instead of figuring out what they are doing wrong? Flex is a benefit for Hardcore more than anyone else, allowing Blizz to leave Normal/Heroic untouched while allowing bads to feel like they are raiding hoping for some of the crying to stop.

- - - Updated - - -

No it doesn't, at no point has content been a part of the casual/hardcore metric. The only metric Blizzard has ever used to determine that is time played. Essentially if you play less than 10 hours a week you are casual, if you play more than that you are the average joe, if you log in 4-5 hours a night or more every night you are hard core. ( actual numbers made up, its more of a way to define things)

Thats the reason Blizzard has lamented the hardcore/casual debate for so many years. What the player base has decided is hardcore/casual is something far different than Blizzard has actually used over the years.


I will use myself for an example. For most players ( based on raiding metric) I would be considered a casual. I raid sparingly, do lots of leveling and instances, basically a lot of things that kill time. However by Blizzards metric ( Time based) I have been in the hardcore category for most of my playing time. I probably average about 7-8 hours of play time on 3-4 days ( or rather nights) so roughly 20-25 hours a week and at times have been double that.

My example alone is the reason that you can't just stick all non-raiders into one category and call them casual. I'm not all that casual, the true casual players are like one of my friends that logs in on Saturday morning, and maybe Sunday afternoon and that's about it.

So we only raid 2 days a week and are 13/13H, so we are casual. That goes against everything they have been posting since we really dont log in until raid night or check the AH. Our melee is on more gearing up ranged alts for 5.4 but they only raid one more night than us, so we are casual i guess.