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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Inthislzon View Post
    Then how did all the "real casual guilds" you mention deal with the fact that real life exists?

    I see having 12-13 raiders on a 10 man roster a must, but i might be wrong
    The guilds that were casual that I've been in:

    If we didn't have enough guildies on at the time- we'd call it for the night. If it was only 1 or 2 people we had to replace, we'd PUG those two slots. Also, people would try and make sure they could be on the whole raid, if that didn't happen we'd call the raid for the night.

    Casual guilds aren't raiding guilds- there's a difference. A true casual guild doesn't have someone on standby mode and they don't sit people out.
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  2. #62
    Ah well, you are speaking about FULLY casual guilds, understood you now. I was talking about raiding guilds with a casual aproach to raiding, as in still wanting to clear as much content as possible while it's current but raiding 2 hours 5 days or something like that.

    Different concepts.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    This is a failure of the leveling dungeons and the level 90 dungeons. They're so easy that you don't really have a chance to die in there unless you're a complete idiot, so you don't learn PVE basics.

    On the other hand, how many times do you need to tell someone "When bad stuff appears on the ground under you you need to stop whatever you're doing and move" and have them do that? In LK I raided with a mage like this - he'd always try to finish a cast, etc and die early. No matter how many times I told him that it was far more important for him to live than to do that, he kept dying. So, yes, it's rough to learn in raids only but you should be able to get the basics (move out of bad shit) pretty fast. The harder things (dpsing efficiently in those environments, etc) is what separates decent from excellent players.

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    BZZT! the topic is casual raiding. Casual raiders generally don't spend time outside the game watching videos. However, after a few wipes I'd hope people learn that sand traps hurt, etc.
    Being labeled a casual doesnt mean its okay for you to go into a fight blind and expect that people will be tolerant of the fact that you couldnt take 10 minutes out of your "busy" day to watch a video.

    Casual is just an excuse to be lazy, it seems.

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  4. #64
    They bench for bad performance plain and simple whether its dps or your raid awareness

    If you are on par with the raids ilvl and doing 60-90k dps...than thats a issue

  5. #65
    Dreadlord Outofmana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theholypally View Post
    Being labeled a casual doesnt mean its okay for you to go into a fight blind and expect that people will be tolerant of the fact that you couldnt take 10 minutes out of your "busy" day to watch a video.

    Casual is just an excuse to be lazy, it seems.
    Raiding becomes very boring when you already watch bossvids before trying the boss imo, I raid only normal 25man these days I guess you can say I went casual 2raids/week because I cannot be arsed to raid 7 days a week anymore and I still go into all bosses blind, I always have. People should be able to learn the fight in a couple of tries and see what the boss is like. Watching vids before hand is just making the fight boring as hell. I guess might be harder for hms these days but still, what's wrong with giving people ~3-5 tries to learn the boss?
    Half of the fun is trying brand new bosses, now LFR almost killed that aspect of raiding but with new mechanics you at least get to experience some new things whenever you reach a new boss.
    Last edited by Outofmana; 2013-08-04 at 03:14 PM.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forsta View Post
    I'd say the margin within a guild is about 5% (with equal gear).
    This is purely opinion, and in my experience completely wrong. There are people we've taken to raids over and over who have similar gear to others in guild who pull 50% or less of their dps consistently. Despite any help we give them, they still just suck. Granted, we're a super casual guild that does at best tier 14 normals so we just take them anyway rather than pug over them, but it's still frustrating.
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  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Theholypally View Post
    Being labeled a casual doesnt mean its okay for you to go into a fight blind and expect that people will be tolerant of the fact that you couldnt take 10 minutes out of your "busy" day to watch a video.

    Casual is just an excuse to be lazy, it seems.
    Sigh. You're still missing the point that people aren't all like you. Some people don't know about videos, some don't take raiding that seriously to spend time researching fights. It's not laziness, it's a different approach to the game. Luckily, for most of those people, you can ask them to get better or raid flexi with them in 5.4 where it won't matter as much.
    Last edited by clevin; 2013-08-04 at 05:41 PM.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Theholypally View Post
    Being labeled a casual doesnt mean its okay for you to go into a fight blind and expect that people will be tolerant of the fact that you couldnt take 10 minutes out of your "busy" day to watch a video.

    Casual is just an excuse to be lazy, it seems.
    No, I think you have the term casual confused with the term "badual".

    A majority of casuals I know are good players- good enough for normals but either not good enough or uninterested in heroics. A casual will at least gem the gear they get and they do put an effort into their character. When they go into a raid, they actually do try; they're just happy their schedule allowed them into a normal raid for a change.

    A badual- these are the ones that make casuals look bad. They are the ones that don't learn from their mistakes, they don't bother to gem or chant their gear because "I'm holding off for a better ilvl item". These are also the ones consistently begging for Blizzard to nerf fights and leave after one wipe. These are also the types that expect others to carry them.

    Also, a lot of these "I don't have time to raid so Blizzard please just mail me gear" types are not casuals.
    Last edited by taheen74; 2013-08-04 at 09:44 PM.
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  9. #69
    Casual = I'm too lazy to learn my class and want my guild to tell me everything

    It takes 10-25 mins to watch a couple of raid guides to get an idea of the fight
    Another 20-30 mins to read up websites about your class and what basic rotations/gems are ideal

    Most raiding guilds raid 3-4 days a week for only 2-4 hours

    If you can't take about 1 hour out of your "busy" day to figure out basic stuff of your class and a raid
    You shouldn't be playing this game. Its already pretty straight forward as is.

  10. #70
    Casual just means you play the game casually... Meaning you don't play that often.

    Casual doesn't mean you're unskilled or lazy. Lazy person that skips trash and doesn't bother reading guides are just that, lazy. Unskilled is someone who stands in stuff, doesn't learn mechanics (no matter how long you attempt a boss), is low DPS, is low HPS, and/or is low threat.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Forsta View Post
    2) Differences in dps coming from the class are within a guild usually bigger than differences coming from the player.
    Actually the exact opposite is true. For non-hardcore players, class differences don't matter because they could easily add 30% dps by perfecting their character, playstyle, UI etc.
    A mage doing 5% more dps than a hunter doesn't matter at all, the better player will always be in front (equal gear assumed).
    There are very few exceptions where certain classes can make a boss easier, but a casual guild is overgearing bosses anyway so it doesn't make a difference.

    So IMO this whole thread is pointless because DPS classes are pretty well balanced and only the top players can squeeze a bit more out of some classes than others.

  12. #72
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    I've never even seen a "casual raiding guild" that had or actively recruited a bench. Usually it's been one or two people with erratic schedules that can't commit to the raid nights all the time who are "reserve" raiders in the event someone couldn't make it. In all other cases, if one or two people are missing then those slots get pugged with the expectation that normal progression isn't going to happen that night, and if it's more than 3 people then the raid gets called.

    Having a bench to begin with is the domain of "serious" raiding guilds in almost every circumstance; casual raid guilds don't work like that, at least not that I've seen, and I've never seen people benched because "X class does more DPS" in anything outside a hardcore raid group and even then it's usually the top guild on a server (often with a pretty high regional/world rank as well). A regular guild would never, for example, bench an Elemental Shaman to bring a Mage instead because "Mage does more DPS".
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  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by TheNationGamer View Post
    Casual = I'm too lazy to learn my class and want my guild to tell me everything

    It takes 10-25 mins to watch a couple of raid guides to get an idea of the fight
    Another 20-30 mins to read up websites about your class and what basic rotations/gems are ideal

    Most raiding guilds raid 3-4 days a week for only 2-4 hours

    If you can't take about 1 hour out of your "busy" day to figure out basic stuff of your class and a raid
    You shouldn't be playing this game. Its already pretty straight forward as is.
    Fucking hell, GET OVER YOURSELF. How many times do I need to say that not everyone is like you and your experience isn't some magical standard.

    NO casual raids 3-4 days/week for 2-4 hours a day. In terms of time, that's hardcore. What you're apparently to dense to realize is that a lof of people play the game and don't know or care about this site, wowhead, Youtube video guides, etc.If they want to know something, they ask in guild and figure it out as they go. You know, like games are supposed to be played

    PS: I love that using Youtube videos and external sites as a crutch is somehow hardcore while going in and figuring it out yourself is noobish. If you don't get why I think that's both funny and wrong, think about it.
    Last edited by clevin; 2013-08-05 at 04:26 PM.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by TheNationGamer View Post
    Casual = I'm too lazy to learn my class and want my guild to tell me everything

    It takes 10-25 mins to watch a couple of raid guides to get an idea of the fight
    Another 20-30 mins to read up websites about your class and what basic rotations/gems are ideal

    Most raiding guilds raid 3-4 days a week for only 2-4 hours

    If you can't take about 1 hour out of your "busy" day to figure out basic stuff of your class and a raid
    You shouldn't be playing this game. Its already pretty straight forward as is.
    I am going to repeat what I wrote again (and by the way, it was right over your post):

    No, I think you have the term casual confused with the term "badual".

    A majority of casuals I know are good players- good enough for normals but either not good enough or uninterested in heroics. A casual will at least gem the gear they get and they do put an effort into their character. When they go into a raid, they actually do try; they're just happy their schedule allowed them into a normal raid for a change.

    A badual- these are the ones that make casuals look bad. They are the ones that don't learn from their mistakes, they don't bother to gem or chant their gear because "I'm holding off for a better ilvl item". These are also the ones consistently begging for Blizzard to nerf fights and leave after one wipe. These are also the types that expect others to carry them.

    Also, a lot of these "I don't have time to raid so Blizzard please just mail me gear" or the "WTB Carry through such and such current raid" types are not casuals.
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  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    Fucking hell, GET OVER YOURSELF. How many times do I need to say that not everyone is like you and your experience isn't some magical standard.

    NO casual raids 3-4 days/week for 2-4 hours a day. In terms of time, that's hardcore. What you're apparently to dense to realize is that a lof of people play the game and don't know or care about this site, wowhead, Youtube video guides, etc.If they want to know something, they ask in guild and figure it out as they go. You know, like games are supposed to be played

    PS: I love that using Youtube videos and external sites as a crutch is somehow hardcore while going in and figuring it out yourself is noobish. If you don't get why I think that's both funny and wrong, think about it.
    Just to touch on this...raiding 4 nights a week isn't considered hardcore raiding. Some guilds do top 300 progression in 2 days...that's hard core.

    I'm not hardcore, I raid 2 days a week, we are only 6/13 heroic. I do however take into consideration that there are 9 or 24 other people counting on ME to know what I'm doing when I set foot in that raid. That's right: it's not always about you. So when you don't raid 4 days a week and are pushing to clear 13 bosses in 2 nights (in our case with 6 heroic bosses PLUS progression on NEW heroic bosses) its even MORE important that everyone is on their game for those two nights or you won't finish the instance.

    The amount of time it takes to read up about basic abilities is minuscule and is in no way jeopardizing their cool kids who play WoW casual status. So, wether you're in a top 10 world guild or not...knowing what you're doing isn't optional in most raid guilds if they ever want to progress at all (not talking about heroics either...if they ever want to progress on NORMAL)

    As far the "magical standard" goes let me put it this way, again, if the guild wants to progress even in the slightest bit there will be a standard for raiding etiquette that will be drawn for all attending players. Not might be, WILL be. Every guild out there has a standard, they don't want some random coming in there and wiping them 5 times in a row because he didn't know how to get out of the pool on jinrokh when targeted by focused lightning. I you think things like that are acceptable then I don't see how anyone wants to raid like that. That's not even close to hardcore standards by the way.
    Last edited by Theholypally; 2013-08-05 at 05:41 PM.

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  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Theholypally View Post
    Just to touch on this...raiding 4 nights a week isn't considered hardcore raiding. Some guilds do top 300 progression in 2 days...that's hard core.

    I'm not hardcore, I raid 2 days a week, we are only 6/13 heroic. I do however take into consideration that there are 9 or 24 other people counting on ME to know what I'm doing when I set foot in that raid. That's right: it's not always about you. So when you don't raid 4 days a week and are pushing to clear 13 bosses in 2 nights (in our case with 6 heroic bosses PLUS progression on NEW heroic bosses) its even MORE important that everyone is on their game for those two nights or you won't finish the instance.

    The amount of time it takes to read up about basic abilities is minuscule and is in no way jeopardizing their cool kids who play WoW casual status. So, wether you're in a top 10 world guild or not...knowing what you're doing isn't optional in most raid guilds if they ever want to progress at all (not talking about heroics either...if they ever want to progress on NORMAL)

    As far the "magical standard" goes let me put it this way, again, if the guild wants to progress even in the slightest bit there will be a standard for raiding etiquette that will be drawn for all attending players. Not might be, WILL be. Every guild out there has a standard, they don't want some random coming in there and wiping them 5 times in a row because he didn't know how to get out of the pool on jinrokh when targeted by focused lightning. I you think things like that are acceptable then I don't see how anyone wants to raid like that. That's not even close to hardcore standards by the way.
    That's the thing though: a majority of casuals learn from their mistakes- normally the first time. I myself was a casual once- but I always at least tried to read the bosses abilities in wowhead and watch the youtube video- I'm one of those folks that learn by doing though. I do it once, if we wipe and it's my screw up, I learn from it and don't do it again. But every raid I have ever been in, the raid leader ALWAYS explains the fights and doesn't expect perfect execution from a newer person the first time.

    What you are referring to is a badual (see the post above your last one). Those are the guys that don't learn the first time. These are the guys that continually make the same mistake over and over again.
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  17. #77
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taheen74 View Post
    What you are referring to is a badual (see the post above your last one). Those are the guys that don't learn the first time. These are the guys that continually make the same mistake over and over again.
    But many casual guilds can't do anything about these "baduals", as either they are longterm members of the guild, or they have some other roots in the guild (e.g. spouse is the main tank, or half the raid group are friends/family of this person) and can't be dropped or benched because they "make the same mistake over and over again" without gutting the raid team or causing the guild to implode. That's usually how things go in casual guilds: you take who you can get.
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  18. #78
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arothand View Post
    But many casual guilds can't do anything about these "baduals", as either they are longterm members of the guild, or they have some other roots in the guild (e.g. spouse is the main tank, or half the raid group are friends/family of this person) and can't be dropped or benched because they "make the same mistake over and over again" without gutting the raid team or causing the guild to implode. That's usually how things go in casual guilds: you take who you can get.
    So much this. The reason we are getting flexi mode is because the games long term sub base is almost entirely relaint on the social aspect (f+f guilds) but theres no content for them. There used to be content for them, back when you could carry your baby brother or dim aunty through a ten man with 2 great, 6 mediocre and 2 crap players.
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  19. #79
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    only raid groups that should be worrying about class balance are the few heroic raiders pushing for world ranking, there is zero reason for a casual or a heroic raiding guild this late into an expansion to bother with class balance. Ranged / Caster DPS is Ranged / Caster DPS. Melee is Melee, Healers are healers, and Tanks are Tanks.

    Benching people because of class balance this late is just a shitty excuse from a poor raidleader who does not have the balls to turn round and say, "We are benching you because of <insert reason here>" Should people be benched ? Yes if they are not pulling their weight or they continually fuck up, but you tell them they are being benched and the reason why.

    Example, if someone fucks up continually on Durumu Maze, or Force of will. Then you bench them if possible and tell them why. You don't bench them and hide behind the excuse of "it's a class balance issue"
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  20. #80
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    So much this. The reason we are getting flexi mode is because the games long term sub base is almost entirely relaint on the social aspect (f+f guilds) but theres no content for them. There used to be content for them, back when you could carry your baby brother or dim aunty through a ten man with 2 great, 6 mediocre and 2 crap players.
    And even that's a crutch; I would argue that normal mode should be doable in a handful of months by "2 great, 6 mediocre and 2 crap" players instead of having a fourth difficulty for those people that just screams "You suck too much for normal, but we don't want you to unsub so here's an easier version of normal so you can pretend you're real raiders"
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