Poll: Demon Hunter & Demonology Warlocks with their Demon Form, Demonic Fury, etc

[Teriz]

They were the same ability with slightly different uses. Don't even try to deny that.

How is a fear/damage/self-heal CD the same as a damage ability with no CD?

[Yarathir]

How is a fear/damage/self-heal CD the same as a damage ability with no CD?

........



So the death knight death coil and the warlock death coil were different because they had a slightly different effect.



But the warlock metamorphosis and demon hunter transformation are not, even though there is a lot more difference between them than between the death coils.



Seems legit.

[Teriz]

........



So the death knight death coil and the warlock death coil were different because they had a slightly different effect.



But the warlock metamorphosis and demon hunter transformation are not, even though there is a lot more difference between them than between the death coils.



Seems legit.

The core of Death Coil was healing undead allies and damaging living opponents.

The Warlock version of Death Coil didn't do that. The DK version did/does.

The core of the Metamorphosis ability is transforming into a demon and amplifying your abilities.

You need to explain how the Warlock version of metamorphosis doesn't do that.

[RoKPaNda]

This demon hunter class hope is getting pretty ridiculous. WarCraft demon hunters are melee, the last thing we need is another melee class. So unless they completely change demon hunters to be like D3's demon hunters, we very likely will not be seeing demon hunters any time soon.

[Yarathir]

The core of Death Coil was healing undead allies and damaging living opponents.

The Warlock version of Death Coil didn't do that. The DK version did/does.

The core of the Metamorphosis ability is transforming into a demon and amplifying your abilities.

You need to explain how the Warlock version of metamorphosis doesn't do that.

If you don't know by now, you obviously haven't paid heed to what I've said so far.



So.. I'm leaving this thread before I have to explain every last detail!



(V)( ;,,; )(V) Woop woop woop woop!

[Teriz]

If you don't know by now, you obviously haven't paid heed to what I've said so far.

So.. I'm leaving this thread before I have to explain every last detail!

Riiiight.

Well let me help you out some more, since you seemingly don't understand how Blizzard structures its Wow classes.

All WoW classes have roots in Warcraft 3 and its expansion. What Blizzard did was take large archetypes and applied them to their units and heroes. They also took archetypes they had created in WC3 to give the game a more "Blizzard" feel.

The general archetype classes are as follows:

Warrior, Paladin, Priests, Rogues, Mage, Hunters

Blizzard archetype classes are as follows:

Warlocks, Shaman, Druids

Now its important to note that in all of these cases, these classes come from large archetypes except the Blizzard archetypes, which Blizzard expanded upon themselves. The general archetypes didn't need much expansion from Blizzard, since they've been part of RPG tropes for decades. However, Blizzard needed to better define the three Blizzard archetypes. They did this by pooling unit and hero abilities.

Shaman: Farseer, Shadow Hunter, Witch Doctor, Orc Shaman, Tauren Chieftain (Revive), Spirit Walker
Druids: Keeper of the Grove, Priestess of the Moon (Starfall), Druid of the Claw, Druid of the Talon
Warlocks: Demon Hunter, Pit Lord, Dreadlord, Banshee(Curse), Blood Mage


This continued with the expansion classes. Blizzard introduced two classes; The Monk and the Death Knight.

Both are part of huge archetypes, but Blizzard put their own spin on both. With the Death Knights they utilized several Undead units and heroes. With Monks, they used the Brewmaster for a spec basis, and then merged the archetype with Pandaran lore to give it a decidedly Blizzard feel.

What about Demon Hunters? What hero unit can they pull abilities from? They're already taken by the Warlock class. What huge archetype can we base the class off of to fill in the gaps? Its not there.

Which is what makes these threads so stupid. All of that was by design, Blizzard's design to be exact. Its absolutely ridiculous to believe that Blizzard is going to construct a class from a concept they've purposely torn apart and given to existing classes since the game began.

[Blarglord69]

Im not sure why people keep riding the demon hunter thing, i guess they really want it

[JasonWuzHear]

About Death Knights being similar to Warlocks because they both had "death coil" thus trivializing the argument that Demon Hunters cannot be implemented because Warlocks have a shared spell:

Let's talk about lore and backgrounds. From general understanding, Warlocks are those that forsake their studies on "good" magic, in order to study the more powerful but more consequential, "bad" magic. The wowpedia article on Warlocks state:

"Warlocks are those who choose to fight fire with fire."

Illidan, the first Demon Hunter, was originally a mage. In order to gain more power (he just wanted to impress Tyrande), he made a pact with Sargeras. Practically, Illidan forsake his studies of the arcane, deemed "good" magic, for the power of more fel energies, the "bad" magic. The wowpedia article on Demon Hunters says:

"They made a pact, long ago, to fight against the forces of chaos using its own terrible powers against it."

Using chaos against the powers of chaos is essentially the same thing as the metaphorical, "fight fire with fire". So the only difference between a Warlock and a Demon Hunter is the tradition of one being a spellcaster, the other being melee.

The difference between Death Knights and Warlocks lore-wise is very large. Corpses are transformed into Death Knights by other powerful beings, most of the time against their will. Warlocks usually aren't transformed, and if they are, they're usually transforming themselves without the help of others. In rare cases, Warlocks are empowered by powerful beings, like Illidan being empowered by Sargeras; however, no Warlock is a reanimated corpse that was previously a different class.

The differences in lore between Demon Hunter and Warlock is, at the least, as close as the similarities in lore between Paladins and Priests. Even then, Paladins are a discrete, separate sect of Priests. Paladins also do not share major abilities to Priests.

So you could say that Warlocks share abilities of Demon Hunters as they did with Death Knights, BUT they also share a lore basis that is similar to Priests and Paladins. Where Warlocks and Demon Hunters are those that fight fire with fire, and Priests and Paladins are champions of the light.

With all of this coupling of abilities and lore, Warlocks are more like Demon Hunters than any other two classes in the game currently. Let's not forget the Glyph of Demon Hunting that was given to them this expansion. I'd say Blizzard's intentions are VERY clear.




The bold text is there to highlight my points so you guys don't have to read as much! Thanks .

I realize that this is a bit Off topic, so I'll bring it back to the point: The only difference in mechanics from Warlock and Demon Hunter is the melee.

[Sukhoi]

Can someone ban op for spam.. please..

[Skayth]

Well you made me do it here. -.-

Since we're past the point where anyone else would ask... Demonology started out as an experiment into a god-of-war style AoE melee class while in demon form and a ranged nuker in human form. It turned out that sucked because once you were in melee and ran out of Demon Juice, the monsters you were AoE'ing obliterated you without AoE Cleave abilities.

After that didn't pan out, I tried out Demonology as a true tank spec. That turned out to be a lot of fun, but other designers (correctly!) protested against the total removal of the demonology DPS style. So I tabled the tank spec, as it was clear that couldn't be fleshed out until Demonology-as-DPS was solved.

The next iteration was Demonology-as-a-summoner, where every Demonology ability was done by proxy via a summoned demon. This was very *cool*, but felt sluggish and I kept asking, "why are my pets more awesome than I am?" as I spammed Shadow Bolt fillers between summoning Imps and such. This lead to the next iteration of Demonology Warlock - master of indirect magic.

Rather than summon creatures, Demonology started using objects. I repurposed Hand of Gul'dan as a frequent nuke rather than location-based buff. Carrion Swarm reintroduced the bats. Finally, Ion Hazzikostas (Watcher) had the brilliant idea to make *all* of your basic nukes get upgraded while in Demon Form. I loved this idea and it felt like it clicked.

It had a lot of overlap with Druid Eclipse, so I did my best to give it one differentiating point - that your trinket choice differentiated how you played the spec. Reactively, with proc trinkets, or in a planned way with on-click trinkets.

Once that was done, I looked back on everything I did and asked what I wanted to keep. The tanky-lock was the only thing I missed, so I put that on a glyph and shipped it. Turned out my understanding of how much dodge and parry had fallen behind the times since WotLK - so the 75% damage reduction from Dark Apotheosis broke the game.

Thankfully, Jimmythenumbers and Big Bear were able to talk me down off my high-horse and it got sufficiently nerfed before it went live.

Did that help?

^--- he was fired from blizzard. He was the one pushing for locks to dhs. hes is the one who made the glyph... HE IS GONE. You want to know how a demon hunter will play? NOT LIKE A BOOMKIN. that is how demonology was made for warlocks. They have been making warlocks further and further away from that initial design of being as close to a dh as possible. so they got rid of "spell cleave melee" they got rid of "tanking" they went for the warlocky style not a dh. ITS ALL RIGHT THERE.

And to all those who say death coil was not similar to the dk death coil... then why did they rename it? They did not have too as there was plenty of differences but the renaming of it completely tosses your argument out the window at that point, because it did not need to be changed. thats all, it simply did not need to be renamed.

[Teriz]

And to all those who say death coil was not similar to the dk death coil... then why did they rename it? They did not have too as there was plenty of differences but the renaming of it completely tosses your argument out the window at that point, because it did not need to be changed. thats all, it simply did not need to be renamed.

Because Blizzard doesn't like class overlap, and that goes down to even the name of abilities.

So what hope do Demon HUNTERS have when one of the major classes in the game is also named HUNTER?

[Skayth]

Because Blizzard doesn't like class overlap, and that goes down to even the name of abilities.

So what hope do Demon HUNTERS have when one of the major classes in the game is also named HUNTER?

Time Warp versus Bloodlust....overlap? Your argument is flawed. There is already way to much OVERLAP in game. one name for an ability that is completely different to another... "apparently"

besides retardation of bads who cannot differentiate the two like the bads for dhsVdhs of d3? well shit they cannot have WARriors and WARlocks in the game then.. oh damn they do. they completely different. Either they are going to use the ENTIRE name, specially when they are looking for a spot, or they will simply use demon or DH, not hunter. as that is their thing for lfgs... like War is warrior and lock is for warlock?

[Talen]

Well you made me do it here. -.-


^--- he was fired from blizzard. He was the one pushing for locks to dhs. hes is the one who made the glyph... HE IS GONE. You want to know how a demon hunter will play? NOT LIKE A BOOMKIN. that is how demonology was made for warlocks. They have been making warlocks further and further away from that initial design of being as close to a dh as possible. so they got rid of "spell cleave melee" they got rid of "tanking" they went for the warlocky style not a dh. ITS ALL RIGHT THERE.

Yes...he was allowed to try out a tanking spec and eventually got to put a nerfed version into the game. Its also clear he was going to follwo the path of actually making it a feasible tanking spec but needed a DPS spec solved first.

You seem to put a great deal of emphasis that he isn't there anymore; lots of people aren't there anymore. Worse, yous eem to overlook the little problem that design isn't done in a vacuum. He wouldn't have been permitted to do most of this if others weren't in on it too.

Further, your little analysis doesn't do anything to suggest a standalone DH class is more likely. All it does is - if its correct - is suggest that DHs will never ever be in the game at all, even as a Warlock sub spec.

EJL

[Teriz]

Time Warp versus Bloodlust....overlap? Your argument is flawed. There is already way to much OVERLAP in game. one name for an ability that is completely different to another... "apparently"

Blizzard tolerates that because

A. The two don't share a name.
B. Time Warp kind of makes sense given the Mage's abilities.
C. Bloodlust had to be given to other classes because of balance issues.

besides retardation of bads who cannot differentiate the two like the bads for dhsVdhs of d3? well shit they cannot have WARriors and WARlocks in the game then.. oh damn they do. they completely different. Either they are going to use the ENTIRE name, specially when they are looking for a spot, or they will simply use demon or DH, not hunter. as that is their thing for lfgs... like War is warrior and lock is for warlock?

Wow, that was one of the worst retorts I've seen here. Warrior and Warlock are single words, and people tend to know what Warriors and Warlocks are. The Demon Hunter and Hunter issue is far different.

The problem is that Demon Hunter sounds superior to Hunter, just like Demon Warrior would sound superior to Warrior. Why would anyone roll a plain old Hunter when you could roll a DEMON Hunter? Demon Hunters sound like a Hunter prestige class. Additionally their Hero class status (because they would be a hero class) would only compound the problem.

If you don't think that's a legitimate issue that Blizzard seriously considers, you're fooling yourself.

Shit, just give Locks a fourth spec called Felsworn with 3-4 Melee moves, a lot of similarities to Dark Apoth; a ability to wear agility leather and dual wield and you could call it a day. Agility ---> SP could work the same way Strength ----> SP works for Paladins.

For Demon Hunter fans, it's a full DH class or bust. They have no desire for their beloved DH to be a mere Warlock spec.

[The Penguin]

Shit, just give Locks a fourth spec called Felsworn with 3-4 Melee moves, a lot of similarities to Dark Apoth; a ability to wear agility leather and dual wield and you could call it a day. Agility ---> SP could work the same way Strength ----> SP works for Paladins.

[Thimagryn]

This demon hunter class hope is getting pretty ridiculous. WarCraft demon hunters are melee, the last thing we need is another melee class. So unless they completely change demon hunters to be like D3's demon hunters, we very likely will not be seeing demon hunters any time soon.

I think it's more disconcerting that people are saying Demon Hunters are Warlocks, despite the differences, such as primarily being a melee class or more importantly, being available to Night Elves.

[Deleted]

I dont know how Blizzard would make it work but to me, demo lock should not have metamorph and instead a new tank spec based on metamorph should be added to warlocks.
In the end, everybody wins, demo spec gets the intended multi demon core mechanic, tank lock spec gets metamorphs as is and demon hunters get their own unique metamorph as seen here