People always say WoW PvP is bad so what has good PvP?

[Deleted]

For me DAOC and Lineage 2 had the best PvP hands down in their prime before they got ruined with XPs. No game has (and probably never will) come close to these two games. If you played these two games then you know what I'm talking about.

Hoping Camelot Unchained will deliver because I really miss games like that.

[Deleted]

I think Path of Exile actually has decently balanced PvP. Your character is only as good as you make it, but there are so many things that actually work. Hell, I'm wearing heavy armor, dual wielding rapiers, and stacking attack speed, and I somehow do pretty decent, if that tells you anything.

Isn't loot super random in that game ? That wouldn't really help balance.

[Djuntas]

WoW PvP was pretty good inn TBC. After that it only got worser, as we got more and more abblities. Now days PvP shoulden't be taken to seriously, more as a side-bonus to the game, if you ask me.

Honestly, if you enjoy PvP, then leave it at that, and don't stress about it to much. I did alot off PvP inn wow at times. Be it my laughable bad playing for 2k rated inn 2v2 back inn TBC, when I grinded my random alts pvp gear or arena, or when I played alot off BG's for either honor inn premades, or battlemaster achivement...PvP is what you make it really.

[Deleted]

It's been said before but I think the reasoning was different to what I will say but, MMOs are not games to find good PvP in.

The reasoning behind why other people might say this would be down to things like non-separation of PvE and PvP, gear grinds and different classes working too differently for balance to flourish.

My reasoning is actually that the skillcap in MMO PvP is too low compared to other games. There just is not enough complexity in traditional tab-targeting hotkey MMO combat of the WoW/GW2 variety. That's not to say that anyone can become amazing at these games overnight. It still takes time and dedication to become good at them however it will take a lot less time to play at the highest levels of MMOs than it will at the highest levels of FPS games or fighting games just because of the huge variety of what is possible in game in those genres compared to MMOs with the limited way abilities work and interact with each other.

The combat system as a whole in MMOs is an extremely simplified version of what is possible in the fighting game genre I feel.

[Dabrix32]

Isn't loot super random in that game ? That wouldn't really help balance.

you can craft all of your gear into better items. Its the opposite of Diablo 3 where you are forced to spend real money for gear.

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My reasoning is actually that the skillcap in MMO PvP is too low compared to other games. There just is not enough complexity

So playing with 40-50 keybinds isnt complex enough and requires less skill than LoL which has like 5 abilities?

[Underverse]

WoW pvp is the best pvp I've played. SWTOR comes somewhat close. GW2 and Rift are pretty bad, but have their moments

[Rucati]

WoW is hands down the best PvP as far as MMO games go. Nothing else really even comes remotely close.

Yes, FPS and MOBA games have better PvP. But that's also *literally* all those games have to do, so they damn well better be good at it.

[Deleted]

For me DAOC and Lineage 2 had the best PvP hands down in their prime before they got ruined with XPs. No game has (and probably never will) come close to these two games. If you played these two games then you know what I'm talking about.

Hoping Camelot Unchained will deliver because I really miss games like that.

Haven't played L2, but DAoC. It's more then 10 years now since DAoC and it still was the best and most rewarding PvP experience. Roaming with 7 other people to fight other groups, night relic raids, wiping out whole enemy zerg with 2 groups, keep defends/raid. You name it!

I'm also looking forward to CU.

[Deleted]

you can craft all of your gear into better items. Its the opposite of Diablo 3 where you are forced to spend real money for gear.

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So playing with 40-50 keybinds isnt complex enough and requires less skill than LoL which has like 5 abilities?

This is exactly my point. I'm not comparing MMO PvP to MOBAs, as I do not know that much about them. I am specifically comparing them to real competitive games i.e. FPS games or fighting games which feel much more like virtual sports, not necessarily in terms of balance, but in terms of what you can do in game compared to MMOs.

Even if you need 40-50 keybinds to control a character in WoW that is precisely the limitation. You only need 40 - 50 keybinds and you can control the character completely with this. This is not enough. The range of what is possible in expressing actions in fighting games or FPS games is vastly wider than what is possible in MMOs. There is more to think about, do and deal with in these games even if it requires less initial memorisation - which is the beauty of these genres i.e. the real competitive games and virtual sports.

You can compare MMO PvP to Chess as Chess does not require hand eye coordination but again, the realms of what actions are possible in Chess is also vastly more immense to what is possible in MMOs. Every action in an MMO usually has an easily predictable counter action because of the way abilities are designed. They are fundamentally based on a rock, paper, scissors design which limits them and limits what you can do with them. The combat systems aren't particularly deep in MMOs. What really separates people at the high end is teamwork, although that is present in many other genres as well. At a mechanical level being good at an MMO isn't about being creative or innovative on the spot. It's about adhering to patterns you have already figured out and making sure you don't make mistakes. This is the opposite of what sports and virtual sports are about.

MMO combat systems are just very simplified compared to the combat systems of other genres.

As a sidenote, since you mentioned LOL, even though LOL only has 4 abilities many of those are skillshots which need to be aimed. You don't need to aim anything in wow, so already the skillcap is greater in using abilities in LOL.

[Valeron]

Any pvp that has dice roll combat stats like +hit are terrible pvp games.

[Rennadrel]

MechWarrior Online.

For serious, the game is designed for PvP.

[Deleted]

The best PvP games will always be FPS since the actions involved in them are not limited by a ruleset created by designers. You are merely capturing, translating and judging with 1:1 fidelity the hand-eye coordination of the player and therefore they are the only real virtual sport.

[Deleted]

WoW is hands down the best PvP as far as MMO games go. Nothing else really even comes remotely close.

Yes, FPS and MOBA games have better PvP. But that's also *literally* all those games have to do, so they damn well better be good at it.

I hardly call an MMO where gear is more important than skill the best PvP.

[Fencers]

Any pvp that has dice roll combat stats like +hit are terrible pvp games.

Well not necessarily. As long as the outcomes of those dice based rules can exhibit a degree of mastery over them. There is more luck in such systems, but even poker has a bit of luck to it.

Player mastery isn't limited to aspects like aim, hand eye coordination or finger dexterity. It can also be mathematical, intellectual, theoretical, etc.

My husband's father is a math professor and avid chess player. He likes to say, "It's one thing to out do your opponent, but you can also out think him."

Then my husband cackles and they continue playing [read: arguing]. But my father-in-law is kinda right about that; it's not just the doing, per se.

[Csnyder]

All you read is people saying WoW pvp is terrible and the Devs dont care about it. But what other MMO out there has better PvP? UO and DAoC had awesome PvP but they are pretty much dead now. Rift is basically a WoW clone when it comes to PvP so its not much better. Heard EvE is basically Ultima Online in space but I never could get into it. GW2 is just zerg vs zerg. Aion was also zerg vs zerg or just a gankfest last time I played. SW:ToR is fun but class balance is worse than WoW ever was. So when comparing WoW pvp to other games is it really that bad?

pvp on wow isnt bad at all, people just cant adapt to changes so they whine about it

[Gsara]

I hardly call an MMO where gear is more important than skill the best PvP.

It depends at what lvl you are playing that game at honestly. There isnt really any gear difference in the high rankings of arena or rated BGs.

[Garehn Vi-Brittania]

All you read is people saying WoW pvp is terrible and the Devs dont care about it. But what other MMO out there has better PvP? UO and DAoC had awesome PvP but they are pretty much dead now. Rift is basically a WoW clone when it comes to PvP so its not much better. Heard EvE is basically Ultima Online in space but I never could get into it. GW2 is just zerg vs zerg. Aion was also zerg vs zerg or just a gankfest last time I played. SW:ToR is fun but class balance is worse than WoW ever was. So when comparing WoW pvp to other games is it really that bad?

Swtor had amazing class balance, and probably the best mmo pvp ive ever played. But with the release of the new expansion it made healers really op.

[Kalyyn]

Isn't loot super random in that game ? That wouldn't really help balance.

Drops are very random. However, you can craft literally everything.

[Valeron]

Well not necessarily. As long as the outcomes of those dice based rules can exhibit a degree of mastery over them. There is more luck in such systems, but even poker has a bit of luck to it.

Player mastery isn't limited to aspects like aim, hand eye coordination or finger dexterity. It can also be mathematical, intellectual, theoretical, etc.

My husband's father is a math professor and avid chess player. He likes to say, "It's one thing to out do your opponent, but you can also out think him."

Then my husband cackles and they continue playing [read: arguing]. But my father-in-law is kinda right about that; it's not just the doing, per se.

No really, when gear stats determine the ability to hit a target, it's a terrible pvp game.

[kail]

No really, when gear stats determine the ability to hit a target, it's a terrible pvp game.

Not really that different from any other RNG in MMO PvP. Like saying crit doesn't belong in PvP. WoW had its moments, but blizz tends to make drastic changes which leads to drastic class imbalances (because of PvE). Blizz should have adopted the idea of split PvP/PvE effects a long time ago.