Bulging Bag of Charms on PTR store

[Jessicka]

Yes I'm fully aware of the purpose of lesser charms, greater charms, and bonus rolls. That still doesn't mean buying lesser charms is gambling or blizzard selling tickets to a lottery. Anymore then a normal subscription cost is blizzard holding a loot lottery for realm life money.

Buying lesser charms is buying a currency that can only be used to participate in a loot lottery. That is exactly what it is. No more, no less. That's not what the sub pays for because you don't need to participate in any random looting to play the game; but there is no further outlay if you do want to participate in those lotteries.

Tell me what do you have a chance to get from lesser charms? You always win with lesser charms because you have a 100% chance per week of winning three greater charms. You aren't paying for the chance at loot. You always gamble on the chance an item drops no matter what you do in WoW. That is how random loot works. But you aren't breaking the terms of service by gambling in that way.

You aren't paying money for a chance at something. You are paying money for lesser charms. Your chance at something has no baring on how many lesser charms you buy. Because lesser charms don't give you a bonus roll. Again your employer isn't gambling if you use your pay check at a casino. Just as Blizzard isn't running a casino if you buy lesser charms then use those lesser charms on something.

Gambling requires direct cause and effect. If Blizzard is a casino and will run into problems with EU/NA gambling laws then Openraid is a casino as well (just one that doesn't charge for entry) because both enable gambling. For that matter the very act of random loot by your own logic would be gambling and against the law. But we know none of these are true.

OpenRaid is a total strawman. You don't pay them, and you don't use it to participate in a loot lottery. If you use it with that intention in mind, that's up to you and if you use it to pay other players to help you toward that goal, you're breaking the ToS.

[rhorle]

That's not what the sub pays for because you don't need to participate in any random looting to play the game.

But you do pay a subscription so you can gamble through random loot. If it is gambling to buy a token that buys another token then why isn't it gambling to buy access that allows you to gamble?

OpenRaid is a total strawman. You don't pay them, and you don't use it to participate in a loot lottery. If you use it with that intention in mind, that's up to you and if you use it to pay other players to help you toward that goal, you're breaking the ToS.

So you don't use OpenRaid to participate in events that grant loot? It is not a total straw man. I'm not misrepresenting your position and not creating an illusion of refuting your opinion by replacing it with a different one. If buying a token that is redeemed for another token to "gamble" is bad then using a website to get a group together so you can gamble is equally bad.

Both are gambling. Both are using real world things to enable that gambling.

[Jessicka]

But you do pay a subscription so you can gamble through random loot. If it is gambling to buy a token that buys another token then why isn't it gambling to buy access that allows you to gamble?

Because the gambling isn't the main focus of the game and can be bypassed altogether.

So you don't use OpenRaid to participate in events that grant loot? It is not a total straw man. I'm not misrepresenting your position and not creating an illusion of refuting your opinion by replacing it with a different one. If buying a token that is redeemed for another token to "gamble" is bad then using a website to get a group together so you can gamble is equally bad.

Both are gambling. Both are using real world things to enable that gambling.

I've ended up in raids set up primarily through OpenRaid like twice, in neither case was I there for loot. Nor did I pay anything to be there.

[Goldfingaz]

But the cash shop in WoW is completely optional and adds convenience. And there is a reason why this is being introduced into the Asian market first rather then other markets. Because they don't subscribe like we do and instead pay by the minute.

I really can't understand why you'd come back to a discussion when you used your previous argument. I thought for sure you'd walk away after realizing what you were comparing yet here we are.

There shouldn't be extra things to pay for inside of a game you HAVE to pay a subscription for in order to play. There shouldn't be extra vanity items, let alone any other items that give you an advantage over other players.

The argument of "You can still only get 3 mogu runes of fate!" is stupid at best. Why? Because while that may be true, that person who paid for their coins has that much more time to spend doing other things, such as PVPing to gain PvP loot, farming Profession materials to sell on the AH, simply more time ot play the AH, more time to raid, more time to do dungeons... more time to do everything but farm those dailies, however the person who doesn't pay for these has to give up their time, which is the most essential thing in this game. Everything requires more time than skill, arguing that is shear stupidity. Complaining that "Oh I don't have much time, so this is a great option for me." is like saying "I don't have time to play a game, give me an option to buy out of playing it.".

But hey, keep trying to argue that Free to Play games with a cash shop is still on the same level as P2P with a cash shop, you'll convince yourself and everyone else this is true for sure.