View Poll Results: Would it upset you if LFR went away?

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  • Yes

    551 53.86%
  • No

    472 46.14%
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  1. #721
    Titan Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akka View Post
    Epic fail then, considering LFR is about removing everything that actually make raids fun.
    Everyone has opinions. LFR removed everything that made raids bad for me: scheduling, job mentality, and having to be fake social. Now I can do it on my own time and don't have to talk to anyone unless I feel like it.
    BAD WOLF

  2. #722
    Quote Originally Posted by Akka View Post
    Epic fail then, considering LFR is about removing everything that actually make raids fun.
    And yet, most players prefer them to normal/heroic raids. Weird that most people spurn this "fun" for something that supposedly removed all this "fun", isn't it?
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
    I hate these casual Fridays ruining it for real Fridays.

  3. #723
    Quote Originally Posted by Emfg View Post
    No, I wouldn't. LFR drained the one and only incentive I had to start and continue raiding; see raiding content. Now it just doesn't feel the same anymore and there's no need to do normal raiding anymore except for gear because there's LFR.
    This is like saying that normal dungeons killed incentives to run heroic dungeons. Why is it that heroic dungeons were doing just fine until Blizzard decided to quit putting them out? By your logic no one should have wanted to run them because they had all done the normal mode versions already.

  4. #724
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    Everyone has opinions. LFR removed everything that made raids bad for me: scheduling, job mentality, and having to be fake social. Now I can do it on my own time and don't have to talk to anyone unless I feel like it.
    Hehe - in my case LFR removed some of the undesirable/inconvenient/impractical things about real raiding, but at the cost of some good things. It's a trade off and I am 100% fine with that. I regard LFR as a weak substitute for real raiding, but it's a hell of a lot better than no raiding at all.
    Last edited by Raelbo; 2013-08-08 at 02:20 PM. Reason: removed a repeated word

  5. #725
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    This is like saying that normal dungeons killed incentives to run heroic dungeons. Why is it that heroic dungeons were doing just fine until Blizzard decided to quit putting them out? By your logic no one should have wanted to run them because they had all done the normal mode versions already.
    That's because most people won't come out and admit that they can't flaunt their ego by being the only people wearing epic gear, dominating the auction house, and generally being better than everyone else. In other words, gear is the largest reason people raid. No one will admit it, but even Blizzard understands this is the underlying motivation for playing.

    If it wasn't, they would certainly design the game differently. Then there's the fact that Blues (in posts as recent as today) admit as much.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Hehe - in my case LFR removed some of the undesirable/inconvenient/impractical things about real raiding, but at the cost of some good things. It's a trade off and I am 100% fine with that. I regard LFR as a weak substitute for real raiding, but it's a hell of a lot better than no raiding at all.
    And potentially flex raiding is targeted for people just like you. I think it's a great idea, but I'm still going to reserve myself to LFR. After seeing the world without needing people that tend to annoy me anyways, it breathed new life into the game for me. If there were no other content to fill my time with, I'd probably not be satisfied as I would want to tackle higher challenges and achievements.

    Thankfully there is too much stuff to do these days, so I can occupy my sense of accomplishment on my own time with many different activities.
    BAD WOLF

  6. #726
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    If blizzard ever decided to make raids as easy and as fun as Naxx 10/25 again, I'd say, "Sure, get rid of LFR because I can see content and not have to worry about getting carried through it all." That being said, I know most people will say "omg you wrathbaby gtfo you didn't raid when it was hard," but regardless... I enjoyed being able to pug on a server. My server pretty much died in Cata because a lot of players who were exceptional raiders in Wrath couldn't perform well in the Cata content and moved to other servers as a way to get into better raiding guilds. I miss being able to say in chat "LFM 'X' raid fresh run, no loot reserves." If blizzard toned down raids like they used to be, I would be all for removal of the LFR. Since that probably won't happen, I guess I'lll just stick to LFR's horrible mechanics.

  7. #727
    Quote Originally Posted by ablib View Post
    What does LFR have to do with the way progression used to be? How does it affect progression?
    in order to gear up = lfr. To help getting the best gear available = lfr. Which means you see the whole content in a crappy state before maybe clearing it in normal/hc - and you do it just because its expected to do ones best for guilds.

    With the current state of normal however it wouldnt be fair. Normal is tuned quite hard cause they got lfr.

  8. #728
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrynil View Post
    *SNIP*
    If you are gearing up in LFR, it's because you are raiding for gear. So the content shouldn't matter. Otherwise you would just wait it out in normal in order to see the content the way you claim. Additionally, Flex Raiding will provide a difficulty in between the two.

    So it really sounds like your points are and will be invalid.
    BAD WOLF

  9. #729
    LFR is here to stay. People need to get over it. I know I wouldn't play unless there was an LFR. I've rarely had problems with the people in LFR and generally have had a good experience. I can tell you that I have had far more bad experiences in a progression raid guild than I've ever had in LFR.

  10. #730
    Quote Originally Posted by Mcaffee View Post
    By adding Flex it is my opinion they should remove LFR all together.
    Flex does not solve one of the big things LFR addresses. Specifically, being able do the content on your own scheduled instead of being locked into
    a specific sechedule.

    The argument I don't have time to do normal raids in my eyes is also BS, if your not on a high pop server and your a dps the queue can take up to an hour, add another hour for 3 bosses then times 4 for all the wings and you're spending 8 hours in a raid setting with the only difference you can sleep through it. As has been posted by several on multiple forums there are HC guilds that raid less then 8 hours each reset and are 13/13 so again having no time to me is BS unless like a m8 of mine you work in shifts and well then your kinda screwed.
    For most people it's not about "not having time". It's about not being locked into a specific schedule where they have not only show up at the same times every week, but also have to stick around for a specific number of hours. I'm someone who raided on a schedule since classic and I'm completely burned out on the regular raiding experience. Having LFR means I can still improve my character and experience the content, but I can do it when I want.

    BTW, since LFR is cross realm, it doesn't matter what population your server is.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    If you are gearing up in LFR, it's because you are raiding for gear. So the content shouldn't matter. Otherwise you would just wait it out in normal in order to see the content the way you claim. Additionally, Flex Raiding will provide a difficulty in between the two.
    Content always matters. Flex also doesn't address the biggest issue most people have: being locked into a schedule.
    Stating an opinion as fact does not make it fact. Opinions are not fact. So don't be stupid and make a fool of yourself by trying to pass off your opinion as fact.

  11. #731
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    Everyone has opinions. LFR removed everything that made raids bad for me: scheduling, job mentality, and having to be fake social. Now I can do it on my own time and don't have to talk to anyone unless I feel like it.
    Exactly. Also, LFR removed the worst for me when it comes to raiding: Having to deal with a raid guild.
    No, thanks - think I'll pass.

  12. #732
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Blackmore View Post
    Content always matters.
    It clearly doesn't. There's tons of evidence to support this, which I have already pointed out, but you are disregarding the context of my response.

    The complaint was that you can't see the content in normal mode because you have to gear up in LFR. This statement alone proves that gear > content. If you feel the need to do 'lesser' content for gear, then you have prioritized gear over content. It's that simple.
    BAD WOLF

  13. #733
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    In other words, gear is the largest reason people raid. No one will admit it, but even Blizzard understands this is the underlying motivation for playing.
    Yes and no. Gear is simply a means to an end. That end is overcoming the next challenge the game throws at you. Which in turn rewards gear that helps you overcome the next challenge etc etc...

    It's sort of a symbiotic thing. We raid to get gear. We want the gear so that we can raid. In the end the fun is delivered by beating obstacles and seeing your character get stronger. Being stronger is important because we want to beat more content.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    And potentially flex raiding is targeted for people just like you.
    I think more accurately flex raiding is targetting guilds like mine, and as a result I am really looking forward to it.

    My conundrum is pretty simple really: I am in a casual guild of friends, most of whom are no longer in the prime of their WoW careers. Many have had their glory days already. Although those who are still around (many have fallen by the wayside over the years for a multitude of reasons which can be summed up as: Life Happens) still want to raid, many of them are no longer keen/able to commit the kind of time and effort to WoW that is required to be properly equipped and skilled to tackle an instance like ToT.

    My personal constraint is that due to having a family, I can't commit heavily to a raid schedule. I can still get in quite a lot of WoW time, just not a lot of raid time because I need to be flexible. At most I can have 1-2 dedicated raid nights a week. Which forces me to choose between spending that time playing with my friends, or finding a semi-casual raidgroup where I can play a bit closer to my potential. Now if my guild was at least clearing bosses and making progress through ToT this wouldn't be too terrible. This is why I am looking forward to Flex raids.

    Firstly the difficulty level will make it possible for my guild to make progress on current content.

    Secondly, the flexible raid size will help us with our problems related to unreliable raiders. Because we have a bunch of guys who regularly miss raids, we landed up in the unfortunate position of oscillating between having 8 raiders on one night, and then 15 the following week. This is just a bad space to be in. When you are only raiding once a week, people don't like being benched. It's difficult to recruit people when they have a 50/50 chance of being benched every raid. So I foresee the flexible thing working nicely for us. We can afford to recruit enough people to ensure at least 10 people every week, without ever having to bench to people


    I'll most likely still make use of LFR quite liberally. It's a good place to practice your rotation and practice doing fight mechanics (even if most of the time they are purely optional in LFR, the still exist). It's also a good place to gather gear to help with regular raid progression. Importantly I quite enjoy the LFR experience for what it is.

    I really got quite a bit of enjoyment out of ToT LFR, enough that I cleared the various wings between 11 and 15 times. I have probably had enough of it for this tier though, so it's fortunate I've also got all I want to get out of there (a few pets notwithstanding :P). On top of that I take memories of quite a few good times from it:

    The first week of Durumu - 5 wipes and then eventually nailing the bastard. Week 10 on Durumu being 1 of 5 people alive at the end. Ironically here is a case where the "fail" LFR raiders turned the encounter into a challenge for a few of us, which made it fun. That's the crazy thing about LFR: Go with a great group, and it's a pleasure because things go nice and smoothly - win! Go with a fail group and suddenly the content becomes challenging on a personal level - win!

    The things I don't like about LFR are when people are jerks. AFK'ers, people yelling at other people, ninja pullers trying to wipe the raid (although I do get a certain amount of satisfaction out of winning the encounter in spite of someone trying to sabotage it) waiting 20 minutes for healers. But in all honesty these negatives are far less common than the good experiences. I guess YMMV

  14. #734
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    I think more accurately flex raiding is targetting guilds like mine, and as a result I am really looking forward to it.
    Well yes, this is what I mean in essence. For people who actually care about the content and a more traditional raid approach, Flex is going to be a very good tool to keep going with that mentality. One of the largest problems with raid groups (and has always been) is attendance and sitting out. No longer do you need to keep a list of subs, people's schedules, and generally feel personally responsible for having a life as a raid member.

    I hope a lot of people take advantage of it, as it removes a lot of negative aspects of raiding out of the mix: schedule issues, loot drama, etc.
    BAD WOLF

  15. #735
    Never can figure out how raiders can hate lfr so much when it has done so much for them. They have gotten more and better content this expansion, due to lfr. They got harder content that was nerfed far less, thanks to lfr. LFR does nothing to harm them, does not prevent them from enjoying the game. What this seems to much more is a belief that only certain people should be able to see raiding and be able to experience content. If you were to remove lfr, then raiding would have to receive far less resources then it does now. With so few people raiding at that point, raiding it's self would be under threat of being cut due to lack of interest. LFR is the best thing that has happen to raiding in this game and to want to remove it is to want to kill raiding it's self.

  16. #736
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrynil View Post
    in order to gear up = lfr. To help getting the best gear available = lfr.
    Only if you aren't in an at least semi-decent raiding guild.

    With the delayed opening of LFR wings at the start of MoP, the really serious players would have outgeared most potential gear upgrades from LFR.

    At the start of ToT, the existing raid gear from the previous tier, especially if augmented by VP upgrades, would have left very little room for any upgrades from LFR.

    Quote Originally Posted by wrynil View Post
    Which means you see the whole content in a crappy state before maybe clearing it in normal/hc - and you do it just because its expected to do ones best for guilds.
    So following my reasoning above:

    If you're in a good guild then yes, it's expected to do one's best for that guild. This is why it is a good guild. However, since you're in a good guild, you have no need to do LFR because your gear is already better than LFR gear!
    If you're not in a good guild then no, it's not expected to do one's best for that guild. This is why it isn't a good guild. So you have no need to do LFR because it's ridiculous for such a guild to place those kinds of demands on their raiders!

  17. #737
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    Everyone has opinions. LFR removed everything that made raids bad for me: scheduling, job mentality, and having to be fake social. Now I can do it on my own time and don't have to talk to anyone unless I feel like it.
    People just can't wrap their heads around this very easy concept, it seems. They can't imagine not wanting to deal with the schedules and other crap that guilds force upon you, just to enjoy the game. I don't see how anyone can be so thick, but there's a lot of them apparently. Heaven forbid people be allowed to do things whenever they want!

  18. #738
    Wouldn't upset me as I'd think it would be a massive improvement for the game, guys that just aren't interested in raiding would've keep getting nudged in that direction, and the game would be a hell of a lot more social. Yes, some guys that only play 2 hours per week wouldn't see much, but then again, they aren't seeing much as it is. I don't think the removal of LFR would kill anybody.... but would probably bring some life back into the game.

  19. #739
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert3620 View Post
    Never can figure out how raiders can hate lfr so much when it has done so much for them.
    I think it's simply because they need a scapegoat. WoW is not exactly in the best space right now. A lot of people have left the game in the last few years, gutting guilds, and detracting from the social aspect of the game. At the same time LFR was born.

    Now although I personally don't subscribe to the school of thought that blames LFR for the lost players, a lot of people do. Which is a pity, because like you say, I think LFR has done a lot of positive things for most people, including those who hate it.

  20. #740
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    Quote Originally Posted by Itisamuh View Post
    People just can't wrap their heads around this very easy concept, it seems. They can't imagine not wanting to deal with the schedules and other crap that guilds force upon you, just to enjoy the game. I don't see how anyone can be so thick, but there's a lot of them apparently. Heaven forbid people be allowed to do things whenever they want!
    It's an unfortunate flaw in humanity as this can happen in any aspect of life. People don't like having social gaps lessened, as they enjoy feeling better than others. It's much easier to use straw men to claim that LFR is somehow bad for the game, when in reality accessibility and gameplay do wonders for any game. It's illogical to think otherwise. Sure some mystery and excitment had to be traded off, but that's only for veteran raiders. For me the last mystery and excitement of raiding died when Arthas did.

    And to be more accurate, Hyjal trash waves for months on end farming gear for new recruits and whatnot killed my desire for raiding long before I actually stopped doing it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    I think it's simply because they need a scapegoat. WoW is not exactly in the best space right now. A lot of people have left the game in the last few years, gutting guilds, and detracting from the social aspect of the game. At the same time LFR was born.
    There is a lot of truth in this. Why analyze the hundreds of reasons that we also have no data to back up, though must surely contribute to the overall decline, when it is easy to just pin it on the one largest design shift since the game was created? It would be just as silly to say that deciding to sell Coke in 6 packs for half price instead of 12 packs has suddenly made buying 12 packs and thereby Coke in general less appealing.

    Accessibility doesn't magically ruin a product. It may not make you feel special anymore, but not for any valid reasons. I put no stock in being so fragile that other people's experiences in their own life can somehow affect mine. Otherwise I'd be flipping tables every day they announce lottery winners.

    Basically it's a group of children crying 'hey no fair, that was mine' when told they have to share with other children. This is a lesson we learn as toddlers, yet here we are having discussions with people who hold the same flawed values as adults.
    BAD WOLF

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