Why don't Europeans care more about civil liberties?

[Nakura Chambers]

Before I start, let me just say a few things. First off, this message isn't to offend anyone, I am well aware that there are some Europeans (such as Daniel Hannan and Nigel Farage) who are staunch defenders of civil liberties. I also recognize that the United States government has had some major civil liberties abuses in both the past and present, however, the difference is that most Americans are opposed to violations of our Constitution, whereas most Europeans don't seem to put much stock in their civil liberties and/or constitution(s). In addition, different European countries have different laws and some of them are better in regards to civil liberties than others. Again, this is not meant to offend, merely for us to discuss why many Europeans seemingly place little value on their civil liberties.

For instance, many Europeans are okay with bans on freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, the right to free religious exercise, the right to bear arms and the right to privacy. Even some of the less obvious things that Americans take for granted, such as trial by jury and republicanism are less valued or even non-existent in many European countries. Common arguments I hear in defense of these authoritarian policies is "I'm not a criminal, so I have nothing to fear" or "my right to not be offended is more important than your right to free speech." I don't really understand how so many people can be apathetic (or in some cases even supportive) towards such extreme government intervention into their lives.

What makes this all the stranger, is the fact that many of the liberties we hold so dear in the United States actually originated in Europe. Take for instance the rights to freedom of speech, freedom of religion and the right to bear arms, which are generally believed to have originated in Ancient Greece and/or Ancient Rome. The right to bear arms was codified in English law in 1181 (and later in 1689) and freedom of speech was codified in the English Bill of Rights 1689. Yet one would be hard-pressed to find such strong legal protections of freedom in place today.

Now I pose to you the same question I asked in the topic title, why don't more Europeans care about their civil liberties? Did the United States not do a good enough job in helping the Europeans progress towards freedom? Are many European peoples still suffering (even if unconsciously) from their cultural and historical acceptance of serfdom? In other words, are Europeans, who spent centuries living within a class system where they had few (if any) rights, so accustomed to said system that it even affects their thinking in modern times? What do you believe to be the underlying cause of why so many Europeans don't care about freedom?

[Rukentuts]

Have you even read the Snowden thread? They care.

[Deleted]

Thanks for speaking on behalf of all, or even most of the Europeans.

Also, trial by jury is a joke. You'd want your life and death be decided by complete random nobodies off the street, instead of people who actually know their shit? Good luck with that.

[Kujako]

Have you even read the Snowden thread? They care.

The issue with that is the UK being one of the most surveyed nations out there (more so then even the US!). The odds of having your phone tapped etc are much higher in the EU/UK then the US.

But I dont take the actions of forum goers as indicative of the opinions of a nation, so meh...

[Deleted]

I am well aware that there are some Europeans (such as Daniel Hannan and Nigel Farage) who are staunch defenders of civil liberties.

Good one.

For instance, many Europeans are okay with bans on freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, the right to free religious exercise

Name some. Otherwise you're talking out of your arse.

the right to bear arms

We have no need of Guns in Scotland, to introduce them would be fucking stupid. It's not a basic human right, as much as Americans might want to claim it as such.

Even some of the less obvious things that Americans take for granted, such as trial by jury, innocent until proven guilty and republicanism are less valued or even non-existent in many European countries.

Yeah?

Which countries.

The right to bear arms was codified in English law in 1181

Times change. England in 1181 was a bit different to England today. For one you don't have the chance of Scottish Border Reavers riding over and burning your town to the ground.

Did the United States not do a good enough job in helping the Europeans progress towards freedom?

Ah yes. The US brand of "Freedom"

[Deleted]

Before I start, let me just say a few things. First off, this message isn't to offend anyone, I am well aware that there are some Europeans (such as Daniel Hannan and Nigel Farage) who are staunch defenders of civil liberties. I also recognize that the United States government has had some major civil liberties abuses in both the past and present, however, the difference is that most Americans are opposed to violations of our Constitution, whereas most Europeans don't seem to put much stock in their civil liberties and/or constitution(s). Again, this is not meant to offend, merely for us to discuss why many Europeans seemingly place little value on their civil liberties.

For instance, many Europeans are okay with bans on freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, the right to free religious exercise, the right to bear arms and the right to privacy. Even some of the less obvious things that Americans take for granted, such as trial by jury, innocent until proven guilty and republicanism are less valued or even non-existent in many European countries. Common arguments I hear in defense of these authoritarian policies is "I'm not a criminal, so I have nothing to fear" or "my right to not be offended is more important than your right to free speech." I don't really understand how so many people can be apathetic (or in some cases even supportive) towards such extreme government intervention into their lives.

What makes this all the stranger, is the fact that many of the liberties we hold so dear in the United States actually originated in Europe. Take for instance the rights to freedom of speech, freedom of religion and the right to bear arms, which are generally believed to have originated in Ancient Greece and/or Ancient Rome. The right to bear arms was codified in English law in 1181 (and later in 1689) and freedom of speech was codified in the English Bill of Rights 1689. Yet one would be hard-pressed to find such strong legal protections of freedom in place today.

Now I pose to you the same question I asked in the topic title, why don't more Europeans care about their civil liberties? Did the United States not do a good enough job in helping the Europeans progress towards freedom? Are many European peoples still suffering (even if unconsciously) from their cultural and historical acceptance of serfdom? In other words, are Europeans, who spent centuries living within a class system where they had few (if any) rights, so accustomed to said system that it even affects their thinking in modern times? What do you believe to be the underlying cause of why so many Europeans don't care about freedom?

Not this again.... Using that mans name makes your argument completely moot. The man is a populist.

Also you can own a gun in the UK, you just have to really want it to go through the effort of getting one. I also think you can own a shotgun in an urban area.

[Deleted]

Not much you can do. Sometimes I wish there was a moral militairy force that would snipe those that mess with our rights out of society.

[Rukentuts]

But I dont take the actions of forum goers as indicative of the opinions of a nation, so meh...

It still kinda disproves the whole "Oh Euros don't care". Obviously some of them do.

[Deleted]

Not much you can do. Sometimes I wish there was a moral militairy force that would snipe those that mess with our rights out of society.

Let's defend morality with immoral actions. Who decides what is right and wrong? Now you see the flaw.

Also owning a gun is not a necessity, stop claiming that being able to own one is a "cornerstone of freedom".

[Noomz]

First of, Europe is not a country, it's a continent with lots of countries. THe first thign you are doing wrong is thinking that all these countries can somehow be called "Europe" and put into one folder where we're all the same.

For instance, many Europeans are okay with bans on freedom of speech

No. Quote source.

, freedom of assembly

No. Quote source.

the right to free religious exercise

No. Qutoe the source.

, the right to bear arms

Because we don't need weapons. We have democracy.

and the right to privacy.

No. Quote source.

Even some of the less obvious things that Americans take for granted, such as trial by jury, innocent until proven guilty and republicanism are less valued or even non-existent in many European countries.

...what? Quote source.

Common arguments I hear in defense of these authoritarian policies is "I'm not a criminal, so I have nothing to fear" or "my right to not be offended is more important than your right to free speech." I don't really understand how so many people can be apathetic (or in some cases even supportive) towards such extreme government intervention into their lives.

Again, what? Where are you getting all this from? Sources, give them.

What makes this all the stranger, is the fact that many of the liberties we hold so dear in the United States actually originated in Europe. Take for instance the rights to freedom of speech, freedom of religion and the right to bear arms, which are generally believed to have originated in Ancient Greece and/or Ancient Rome. The right to bear arms was codified in English law in 1181 (and later in 1689) and freedom of speech was codified in the English Bill of Rights 1689. Yet one would be hard-pressed to find such strong legal protections of freedom in place today.

Now I pose to you the same question I asked in the topic title, why don't more Europeans care about their civil liberties? Did the United States not do a good enough job in helping the Europeans progress towards freedom? Are many European peoples still suffering (even if unconsciously) from their cultural and historical acceptance of serfdom? In other words, are Europeans, who spent centuries living within a class system where they had few (if any) rights, so accustomed to said system that it even affects their thinking in modern times? What do you believe to be the underlying cause of why so many Europeans don't care about freedom?

I cannot with words express how utterly wrong and missinformed you are. I'm infact having a hard time imaging you are actually serious about what you just wrote. It's a hillarious irony as well.

We care. We just don't need to bash our chests and shout about it.

My country, Sweden, has one of the highest gun per capita in the world. Again, we don't have a need or a want for guns other than for what they are actually used for: Hunting and sport.
If we want to affect the political process we live in a democracy that allows that through political discourse. The "right to bear arms" is an old, redundant "right". But whatever, it lets you feel like you have power over your lifes I guess, when in truth you having a weapon or not has no impact on anything, especially not your politics that quite obviously don't care.

[Nakura Chambers]

It still kinda disproves the whole "Oh Euros don't care". Obviously some of them do.

Half of Europe wouldn't allow the Bolivian president to fly over their airspace, forcing him to land in Austria, because they thought Snowden was on board his plane.

[Deleted]

Because as long as there is plenty to eat, drink and watch TV the masses of idiots are content, and those that understand what civil liberties should mean are way too few. it's the same everywhere.

[Rukentuts]

Half of Europe wouldn't allow the Bolivian president to fly over their airspace, forcing him to land in Austria, because they thought Snowden was on board his plane.

That was international politics, not a survey on freedoms to the general populace.

[Deleted]

I value freedom, but disagree with the 'right to bear arms'.

[Kujako]

I value freedom, but disagree with the 'right to bear arms'.

What, you want a bunch of armless bears slopping around bleeding all over everything? As a Guardian Druid, I find that offensive!

[Deleted]

What, you want a bunch of armless bears slopping around bleeding all over everything? As a Guardian Druid, I find that offensive!

What, there be no 'arm done.

[Deleted]

As far as im concerned bearing arms isnt a liberty, its a stupidity.

[Noomz]

Also, why the heck is the EU and UK two different options in your poll?

[Thes]

I do not want to wield a gun just because everyone else is wielding a gun. It's not a fucking human right to wield weapons in public (even if concealed). Hate speech is retarded and punishable here, other than that you can open your mouth and state whatever you want.

[trebor]

The fact that you group freedom of speech/freedom of religion etc. with the right to bear arms baffles me