This chance is reduced against multiple targets.

[land]

Was also pissed when I read that but this is PTR so I'd take it all with a grain of salt. If the reason behind this change is to adjust our play style (i.e. so we don't become SS machine guns on 4+ targets fight like council) that doesn't necessarily mean that it is a dps nerf *yet*, numbers can be adjusted, SS could hit harder than now, etc. Looks like now is when they start to look into adjusting numbers, so I'm still waiting to see what's gonna happen.

[Fountaiin]

Get your warlocks and mages ready, gentlemen. I mean, we'll still be decent assuming the proc isn't too huge, but... I don't understand how mages can be mages tier after tier.

GC did say they can't buff aoe because of multidotting. Hopefully something is planned.

[Cyous]

Get your warlocks and mages ready, gentlemen. I mean, we'll still be decent assuming the proc isn't too huge, but... I don't understand how mages can be mages tier after tier.

GC did say they can't buff aoe because of multidotting. Hopefully something is planned.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYQbO20MUOE

My reaction. (all of it)

[Cyteriz]

from GC "On the PTR we were seeing a rotation with almost no Starfire or Wrath usage."

Should just start level my mage and i might be able to raid next expansion

[Fountaiin]

from GC "On the PTR we were seeing a rotation with almost no Starfire or Wrath usage."

Should just start level my mage and i might be able to raid next expansion

I mean, don't be too drastic. On a fight like Qon pre p4 or even Lei Shen first transition I'm usually at the top with mages and demo locks.

I did like 30k more than second place on Ra-den this week because 2-3 target moonkin is really good, and we'll still be good. Nobody likes nerfs, though. I view it as an opportunity for them to buff us in the aoe department.

edit: and our gear is only going to get better plus 4p. It was probably necessary.

double edit: "As an aside, this didn’t make the latest PTR push, but we’ll be buffing Wrath, Starfire, and Starfall by 10%."

I didn't even notice that. I'm sure someone posted it and I just missed it. Big single target buff.

[Souxlya]

Still it's not the right way to "fix" SS wastage. Nerfing SS generation in order to lower SS waste is like using a nuke to kill an ant.

Who else thought of Starfire/Wrathing Critters in cata to get to Lunar when they read this?

- - - Updated - - -

I mean, don't be too drastic. On a fight like Qon pre p4 or even Lei Shen first transition I'm usually at the top with mages and demo locks.

This is due to how strong our burst is + procs at the beginning of a fight. As the fight continues you slowly drop closer and closer to the bottom, gets worse in execution range. So this is a skewed perspective on our overall performance.

edit: and our gear is only going to get better plus 4p. It was probably necessary.

This nerf will mostly bypass gear, as in, gear won't make it really any better. Since the chance on crit will be so low. 50% crit, with a 10% chance to actualyl proc? Ew. Think about that, Ew.

double edit: "As an aside, this didn’t make the latest PTR push, but we’ll be buffing Wrath, Starfire, and Starfall by 10%."

I didn't even notice that. I'm sure someone posted it and I just missed it. Big single target buff.

So Blizzard gave a tiny itty bit of damage to Wrath and Starfire, and they are pretending this makes it okay that we now have even worse aoe? Because we all know that 10% to Starfall is crap, since that doesn't even make up for half of the extra Starfall casts we now lose in this aoe/cleave situations since we can't push Eclipses faster. On top of this, remember them increasing the mana cost of our nukes? So this means that when there are times to use Hurricane, its even hard now, because we'll have to try and push Eclipse faster.

[Cyous]

+10% Wrath, Starfall, and Starfire -- it's a ~1-3% increase in damage output from those spells overall (total) in multi-target encounters. Single target... it's ~4% increase.
This does not factor in the loss of SS procs (which i believe won't make a notable difference).

[artem123]

+10% Wrath, Starfall, and Starfire -- it's a ~1-3% increase in damage output from those spells overall (total) in multi-target encounters. Single target... it's ~4% increase.
This does not factor in the loss of SS procs (which i believe won't make a notable difference).

Maybe they'll add in some more compensation later aoe wise. Hopefully, considering a ton of fights prefer multi-target

[Blizzyb]

This nerf will mostly bypass gear, as in, gear won't make it really any better. Since the chance on crit will be so low. 50% crit, with a 10% chance to actualyl proc? Ew. Think about that, Ew.

It's only for additional targets past the first. We're still going to be very high with crit chance and we'll still have the 4p pushing that higher. This plus the buffs to the single target spells are good for our single target damage outside of initial burst like you said.

What doesn't make sense is there's no mention of any sort of AoE buff to compensate. Like doing what they did with Monks and having hurricane no longer be channeled so we could actually do other stuff while it's ticking in an area. Maybe like the druid hurricane in Diablo 2 where it just circles around us? Making it melee-ish is strange, but I can't think of it being too inconvenient.

[Stevecow]

Lore just posted this.

"We made this change because, even without the Tier 16 4-piece bonus, we felt that Balance multidotting was too strong. On top of that, with enough mobs available, the Balance rotation was devolving into just Moonfire/Sunfire and spamming Starsurge constantly, to the point of completely ignoring Wrath and Starfire.

The way this works under the hood is by multiplying the base proc chance by SQRT(x)/x, where x is the number of mobs that have Moonfire or Sunfire active. Note that the proc chances are calculated per spell – Moonfire doesn’t count against Sunfire’s proc chance, or vice versa. So as an example, if the base chance is 30%, and you have Sunfire active on 1 mob but Moonfire active on 3, your Sunfire will have a 30% chance to proc Starsurge on a crit, and your Moonfires will each have a 17% chance.

As an aside, this didn’t make the latest PTR push, but we’ll be buffing Wrath, Starfire, and Starfall by 10%."

Source http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...5458?page=1#19

[Souxlya]

It's only for additional targets past the first. We're still going to be very high with crit chance and we'll still have the 4p pushing that higher. This plus the buffs to the single target spells are good for our single target damage outside of initial burst like you said.

My example was referring to multi target, single target isn't effected. My example was being somewhat drastic, if we have 50% crit, and our 30% proc of Shooting Stars on single target, drops to 10% on multi (due to 5+ targets as a guess) "gear" won't really help make the nerf better. At least this was my point.

The increase in our sustained damage is nice, for single target. For aoe (thinking of Starfall) it just doesn't counter act the nerf at all. Unless we can agree to just look at Starfalls 10% as only and single target buff, then we can kind of happy about it.

What doesn't make sense is there's no mention of any sort of AoE buff to compensate. Like doing what they did with Monks and having hurricane no longer be channeled so we could actually do other stuff while it's ticking in an area. Maybe like the druid hurricane in Diablo 2 where it just circles around us? Making it melee-ish is strange, but I can't think of it being too inconvenient.

This is exactly why people are upset. The single target buff they gave us was needed without the nerf (even then its a small prize, looking at Cyrous numbers). I'm pretty sure most Moonkin could agree that our multi doting/cleave was very very strong, and could use a nerf, but not while Hurricane/Mushrooms are total crap. I'm really hoping, like yourself, that they do something to Hurricane, and Mushrooms (I want a Lunar Mushroom, and a glyph for just 1 shroom -.- like Resto).

[Dawgystyle]

Lore just posted this.

"We made this change because, even without the Tier 16 4-piece bonus, we felt that Balance multidotting was too strong. On top of that, with enough mobs available, the Balance rotation was devolving into just Moonfire/Sunfire and spamming Starsurge constantly, to the point of completely ignoring Wrath and Starfire.

The way this works under the hood is by multiplying the base proc chance by SQRT(x)/x, where x is the number of mobs that have Moonfire or Sunfire active. Note that the proc chances are calculated per spell – Moonfire doesn’t count against Sunfire’s proc chance, or vice versa. So as an example, if the base chance is 30%, and you have Sunfire active on 1 mob but Moonfire active on 3, your Sunfire will have a 30% chance to proc Starsurge on a crit, and your Moonfires will each have a 17% chance.

As an aside, this didn’t make the latest PTR push, but we’ll be buffing Wrath, Starfire, and Starfall by 10%."

Source http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...5458?page=1#19

They need to buff dot damage then. Or give us the mobility and damage outputs hunters have. Having to stand still for 1.5 seconds to cast a spell that hits for 44k is silly. I'd even take a movement penalty that locks get from KJC

[Cyous]

Multi-DOTing will be a brainless piece of trash at this point .... Like...we'll be fine on 3 target MAXIMUM. Anymore...and it seems pointless...we just won't sustain SS procs and the loss of NG uptime will hurt us.

Basically, I'm thinking we'll do 3 MFs + 3 SnFs...and then we SS>Nuke. I wouldn't bother refreshing Eclipsed DOTs either (just go for it). With the 4pc...add 1 more target to multi-dot

[Souxlya]

MFs and SnFs on the same target, or separate, could we do 6 targets then, or does it become more pointless since we get into the uneclipsed DoT?

[Cyous]

MFs and SnFs on the same target, or separate, could we do 6 targets then, or does it become more pointless since we get into the uneclipsed DoT?

Moonfire and Sunfire don't interact with each other's proc rates. Basically, we're counting the number of instances of which each DOT exists. And I'm going to try and model SimCraft to accuratey portray these changes and information. (That may take a while though, no promises -- school, work, etc getting in the way of my free time)

[Souxlya]

Moonfire and Sunfire don't interact with each other's proc rates. Basically, we're counting the number of instances of which each DOT exists. And I'm going to try and model SimCraft to accuratey portray these changes and information. (That may take a while though, no promises -- school, work, etc getting in the way of my free time)

Aye, that was why i was asking if we could still cover 6 targets. Each one with 1 DoT, 3 with MF, and 3 with SF. Just a thought anyway.

[Cyous]

Aye, that was why i was asking if we could still cover 6 targets. Each one with 1 DoT, 3 with MF, and 3 with SF. Just a thought anyway.

I think I forgot to actually answer the question....whoopsie.

Whether it be 3 targets or 6 targets, it doesn't matter. (more direct response)

[Souxlya]

I think I forgot to actually answer the question....whoopsie.

Whether it be 3 targets or 6 targets, it doesn't matter. (more direct response)

Ah I understand now =).

[Minikin]

Challenge modes. Would take a hit with this.

[Velaniz]

I'm glad I quit just before the Solar Beam nerf went live. Everything seems to have gone absolutely downhill since then.

From an rbg standpoint, these are the hugest issues:

-Loss of built-in damage reduction. Without the fifteen percent damage reduction, which was huge and absolutely necessary for a class with as few emergency buttons as us, moonkins will essentially be taking 17.6% more damage from spell sources when focused. Which are probably around 95% of sources =/

-Shooting Stars multi-target nerf. For pve-kins who have their proc chance boosted from not only their insanely high crit levels, but also a set bonus, this will undoubtedly be less of an issue. For pvp-kins who had none of that, and are MUCH more dependant on Shooting Stars than pve-kins generally (for more than just raw damage. Shooting Stars gets your team crucial, game-changing kills), this will be absolutely devastating.

Raw Multi-target spread damage is less because one can't spread eclipsed dots on everything and enjoy a high proc chance anymore. One also has to weave in uneclipsed dots to make sure he gets more procs. In pve it can be calculated how many eclipsed/uneclipsed dots you want up such that starsurge proc is optimal, but for pvp, which is more starsurge-oriented, it is going to be starsurge optimisation that is always prioritised, so you are going to lose some spread pressure to get as high a proc chance as possible. as it is, moonkin spread damage is already barely on par with that of warlocks, spriests, both of which have better on-demand burst capabilities. I see this as only making the imbalance worse. The effect this will also have on Celestial alignment starsurge machine-gunning is also going to be colossal. Buffs to nukes and starfall will no where close to off-set this for pvp-kins.