Redirect 5.4

[Deleted]

It seems a lot of people are blowing this entirely out of proportion. Imho Redirect is perfectly fine providing that it doesn't have a cooldown. My only problem with it is the loss of CP on various encounters such as Megeara unless you are lucky. Adding a CD again is the main issue for me for next patch - it just isn't necessary, and the various posts from people in this (and combo point discussion thread) kinda back this up.

My question is: Have we ever had any clarification as to why redirect was given a cooldown from an active dev? Whether it be recently or a long time ago, it feels as if the topic has been brushed under the carpet for years.

EDIT: to prevent the closure or merge if his thread it would be worth posting reasons "why CP should be on the player" over @ http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-on-the-player . I made the OP purposely to discuss the recently datamined change.

[Koji2k11]

i think mainly because this glyph would be considered mandatory and you could just bind all your abillitys with redirect might as well make it baseline or let rogues stack cp on them

[Deleted]

If you're referring to a raid environment though, I believe around 40% of bosses in SoO did not require the glyph, and it was a dps / survivability increase to run with something else. It's certainly not mandatory, it's just a situational change. In other words... It's the way blizzard currently want their glyphs to be: not required, but a gain if used correctly on the right fights. Seems reasonable, no?

It's going to be the exact same situation if they give us the 10 second CD or not, yet they are making our QoL worse in one foul swoop.

[ymirsson]

Actually thats an interesting point. Why shouldn't we be able to build up cp on multiple targets? Seems like that is a nice little bonus to make up for the big negative of combo points on target

This wouldn't fit into the lore of someone doing a combo.

*crickets*

[Sesshou]

This wouldn't fit into the lore of someone doing a combo.

*crickets*

Sure it does. If you're fighting more than one guy, you can combo them both at the same time. Its like you've never seen a Jackie Chan movie or something where he uses attacks on multiple guys to build off each other.

[Stryk]

My question is: Have we ever had any clarification as to why redirect was given a cooldown from an active dev? Whether it be recently or a long time ago, it feels as if the topic has been brushed under the carpet for years.

I'm assuming redirect was given a cooldown in order to make the glyph not mandatory and force players to think about whether the particular fight would benefit from the redirect glyph or not. If I recall correctly, Blizzard doesn't want glyphs to be mandatory although Vendetta is on 99% of fights.

[Sesshou]

I kinda wonder about that Ven glyph in practice. On your opener, your trinkets, prepot, shadowblades are all likely gone by the end of the first 20 seconds (or maybe 1-2 extra for potion). You should get at least 1 more SB/Ven probably with a second potion again where your extra 10 seconds only synergize with 5 seconds of a potion and nothing else. If you are able to delay Ven a bit for a trinket proc, again those are 20 seconds. I don't think it would really be a big deal if you didn't take it and took another glyph instead.

[Deleted]

I'm assuming redirect was given a cooldown in order to make the glyph not mandatory and force players to think about whether the particular fight would benefit from the redirect glyph or not. If I recall correctly, Blizzard doesn't want glyphs to be mandatory although Vendetta is on 99% of fights.

I already replied to an exact same response with the following:
If you're referring to a raid environment though, I believe around 40% of bosses in SoO did not require the glyph, and it was a dps / survivability increase to run with something else. It's certainly not mandatory, it's just a situational change. In other words... It's the way blizzard currently want their glyphs to be: not required, but a gain if used correctly on the right fights. Seems reasonable, no?

[ymirsson]

Sure it does. If you're fighting more than one guy, you can combo them both at the same time. Its like you've never seen a Jackie Chan movie or something where he uses attacks on multiple guys to build off each other.

You must have missed my sarcasm tags.

[Verain]

I kinda wonder about that Ven glyph in practice.

I've skipped that glyph on almost all content this expac, personally. I like the bigger burst. I also normally have agi gloves during that time, and sometimes the boss phases don't line up right.

Next tier you'll definitely want it though, because the set bonus really rewards a longer vendetta. It's higher on a patchwerk today, but tomorrow it'll be higher on everytihng.

[shadowboy]

I kinda wonder about that Ven glyph in practice. On your opener, your trinkets, prepot, shadowblades are all likely gone by the end of the first 20 seconds (or maybe 1-2 extra for potion). You should get at least 1 more SB/Ven probably with a second potion again where your extra 10 seconds only synergize with 5 seconds of a potion and nothing else. If you are able to delay Ven a bit for a trinket proc, again those are 20 seconds. I don't think it would really be a big deal if you didn't take it and took another glyph instead.

I actually don't take the vendetta glyph for a couple reasons (including a lot of the ones you mention).

Let's not forget that shadow blades lasts 12 seconds (8 seconds less than unglyphed vendetta), and during shadow blades you're doing more damage if vendetta is unglyphed.

I'd guess the difference between glyphed and unglyphed is probably closer than straight up averaging suggests.

(FWIW, I use smoke bomb and expose armor glyphs, and a 3rd that varies fight to fight, for my combat spec I use AR, smoke bomb, and expose armor).

[Deleted]

One big advantage to the Glyph on Vendetta is that you can "hold off" using SB for up to 18 seconds rather than 8 in order to get a trinket proc. This doesn't apply so much to on-the-pull sitautions (because of prepot), but getting a full useage of SB with Vendetta and Rentakis - and often 2nd pot - in the middle of an encounter is outrageous burst damage. I always wait the maximum amount of time i can in order to synergise the most effects as possible.

[slime]

I like how today I read from a blue that the decline in the rogue population was greatly due to the introduction of the DK. So, they are saying most people moved away from the crap, 1 job, need to be ultra-close, glass cannon melee to the unnecessarily OP, 2 job, hard to kill not-glass cannon melee. I guess the introduction of the DK was Blizz's way of saying... actually guys if I were you I wouldn't make a rogue from here on in.
And this redirect glyph... man oh man just more of the same, but please blizz give DKs another crutch to lean on - maybe their self heals are too low... or wait maybe they don't have enough tools against magic users... or gap closers.... or wait.... WHY THE FUCK AM I PLAYING A ROGUE?!?

[Deleted]

I already replied to an exact same response with the following:
If you're referring to a raid environment though, I believe around 40% of bosses in SoO did not require the glyph, and it was a dps / survivability increase to run with something else. It's certainly not mandatory, it's just a situational change. In other words... It's the way blizzard currently want their glyphs to be: not required, but a gain if used correctly on the right fights.

No. With the no-CD glyph, it would have been pretty much mandatory in every fight that require targets swap, because it was extremely strong. With this 10s version, there will be much more room for other glyphs on encounters without very frequent targets swap.

First example that came to me:
> Galakras: you'll take the glyph, whether in its current (nerfed) version or in its previous.
> Sha of Pride: you would have very probably taken the glyph in its no-CD version. In the current one, it's very arguable, even though you can gain useful redirects with it.

I like how today I read from a blue that the decline in the rogue population was greatly due to the introduction of the DK. So, they are saying most people moved away from the crap, 1 job, need to be ultra-close, glass cannon melee to the unnecessarily OP, 2 job, hard to kill not-glass cannon melee. I guess the introduction of the DK was Blizz's way of saying... actually guys if I were you I wouldn't make a rogue from here on in.
And this redirect glyph... man oh man just more of the same, but please blizz give DKs another crutch to lean on - maybe their self heals are too low... or wait maybe they don't have enough tools against magic users... or gap closers.... or wait.... WHY THE FUCK AM I PLAYING A ROGUE?!?

Although that's completely off-topic, he was basically saying that many rogues rolled the class because it was one of the most overwhelmingly powerful class in outdoor PvP. The game has changed: not only outdoor PvP doesn't matter at all nowadays (and since WotLK... where DK were introduced), rogues lost their dominance, and when DK appeared they completely smashed everything, pushing away classes that previously had that status. Add to that the fact when DK appeared, every single class' representation diminished (o rly).

[Deleted]

First example that came to me:
> Galakras: you'll take the glyph, whether in its current (nerfed) version or in its previous.

You almost couldn't have picked more a contradictory boss to my quote. It wouldn't be used on Iron Juggernaut, Thok the Bloodthirsty, Siegecraft Blackfuse, possibly(?) Malkorok, and also possibly(?) Immerseus depending on your job in the fight.

So still, the glyph isn't mandatory on every encounter. I thought the Blizz's idea of glyphs were to change them depending on the fight and not just leave in the same 3 for the entire tier. Guess I'm wrong.

[Deleted]

You misunderstood me. What you are saying is: "it's not mandatory because there are bosses on which we will do only single target damage".

I am saying: that's wrong. It would be like saying Vendetta's glyph isn't mandatory because there are bosses where you don't want it (e.g. Garalon).

Without any CD, *ANY* encounter requiring quick targets swaps would have made the glyph a nobrainer (e.g. Sha of Pride, dps boss > redirect add > mutilate > it dies > redirect boss > keep dpsing boss with close to no dps loss, possibly repeating that for other adds if assigned groups aren't balanced and they don't die at the same time).

With the 10s CD, it's not a nobrainer on such fights anymore, that is, fights where you won't do 5 more useful redirects per minutes but possibly 1 or 2. It brings choice. And it will still be required on adds-heavy fights such as Galakras or (possibly) Nazgrim.

To say it another way, without any CD on it you'd have 2 choice: 1) I don't need the glyph, I won't redirect or only will once per minute, tops; and 2) I need the glyph.
With the 10s CD, you'll have 3: 1) I don't need the glyph; 2) I need the glyphs, I'll spend the whole fight pressing tab; and 3) the glyph would be useful and a DPS gain but it would be minor and maybe a faster sprint or 2 more sec on Smoke Bomb would be wiser.

Now I am saying that the absence of CD is bad per se. But I can't agree with you saying "there are single-target only bosses, thus the glyph is situationnal".

[Deleted]

Well either way, if your management of movement CD's is good enough (they really should be now especially after recent buffs), the glyph really wouldn't be that much of a decision to make to be honest. I wouldn't consider taking anything to improve my movement in 5.4 unless the 100% sprint was required for a Lei Shen-esq scenario.

Pretty much any fight that has target switching has has it frequently to enough to take the glyph, 10 second CD or not. Being 5 redirects / minute or 1-2 redirects per minute doesn't matter, as it will in 90% of cases be better than taking a defensive glyph providing the bosses aren't extremely overtuned.