Why don't people want combo points on the player?

[Pokex]

I'm going to state this from a PvP balance standpoint.

I've played Arena at the ratings of 2,400 in all brackets on my Priest and I've played with plenty of rogues. Having one myself and reaching 2,000 rated (as my alt) I will explain from my standpoint as to why rogues should be limited with combo point usage on the target.

I will be talking assuming the standard PvP talents (Subterfuge, X, Elusiveness, Shadowstep, X, Marked for Death. X being comp based.) and the standard spec, Subtlety.

Combo points not only bring a uniqueness to the Rogue class, but it brings balance to how it works in arena. You have five ways to generate combo points. Using an ability that generates combo points, HAT proc, Shadow blades, Premeditation and Marked for Death. Using the ability Redirect you can take your combo points and swap them to another player.

You have ways of using those combo points. Kidney Shot, Eviscerate, Rupture, Slice and Dice and Recuperate are the main uses for combo points in PvP. Three of the abilities are usable on your target and two are buffs to yourself. This is pivotal to balancing the PvP scene as if rogues had five combo points all the time on anyone, you could see something like this happen. Gain five combo points on someone, tab to the healer, step kidney the healer and simply run back to killing your target. Bombing after the kidney or following up with a blind.

Rogues currently in PvP don't have that hard of a time finding combo points. Between HAT Procs, premed, abilities and Marked for Death, combo points aren't really something that rogues are struggling to have. Hell, good rogues will get 5 cp, build full energy, get a fresh SnD, redirect kidney healer, dance with blades and do tons of burst. I see it done at all levels. However, it takes a little amount of finesse to pull off that combo. You can't just have 5 CP and kidney the healer, you have to rely on the 1 minute CD Redirect.

If rogues didn't have combo points they could just use every 5 cp kidney on the healer. Kidney on 20 sec CD and SHS on 24 (soon to be 20) This would be pretty game breaking for PvP. Currently to do this, rogues either have to redirect or marked for death to get a clean kidney without hitting the healer.

There are lots of things Rogues can do to shut down a healer. Vanish and Cheap into Garrote with Subterfuge. Dance cheap into blind. However, each of these uses Cooldowns. Both that can be used defensively or offensively. If rogues could just kidney healers whenever they wanted, it would be a dream come true. However, it wouldn't be good for the balance of WoW.

Tl;dr, it would break Arena.

*Edit. Glyph of Redirect is horribly underused in PvP.

Also I completely forgot about ramp up time.

Ret Paladins can currently just target something and utilize their Holy Power. Rogues currently can't do this without using redirect/marked for death. This means that a rogue can't just target the person the team is swapping to and just start an evis -> marked for death -> evis without using redirect. It helps with ramp up time and with balancing out swaps, which Rogues are deadly for.

[Wow]

You have ways of using those combo points. Kidney Shot, Eviscerate, Rupture, Slice and Dice and Recuperate are the main uses for combo points in PvP. Three of the abilities are usable on your target and two are buffs to yourself. This is pivotal to balancing the PvP scene as if rogues had five combo points all the time on anyone, you could see something like this happen. Gain five combo points on someone, tab to the healer, step kidney the healer and simply run back to killing your target. Bombing after the kidney or following up with a blind.

What about this can't you do right now?

If rogues could just kidney healers whenever they wanted, it would be a dream come true. However, it wouldn't be good for the balance of WoW.

Tl;dr, it would break Arena.

The fact that There are other classes can do this and easier than rogues (fist of justice, asphyxiate, fists of furry) and arena didn't break so calling that game breaking is little hard to believe.

*Edit. Glyph of Redirect is horribly underused in PvP.

How can something that doesn't even exist yet be under or over used?

Ret Paladins can currently just target something and utilize their Holy Power. Rogues currently can't do this without using redirect/marked for death. This means that a rogue can't just target the person the team is swapping to and just start an evis -> marked for death -> evis without using redirect. It helps with ramp up time and with balancing out swaps, which Rogues are deadly for.

You know if rogue could do that you know what the target would say in reaction to that happening? "lol rogue just double evis me without find weakness or sv oh no those 20k evis's".

[pimpeddakota]

I can count on one hand how many classes actively stance dance in PvE at least.... THAT'S RIGHT NONE!

I'm glad all I was talking about was PvE... Maybe instead of learning to count fingers you should learn to read

Infracted.

[OneSent]

Because if they were on the player it would be holy power.

Homogenization is bad. It make more sense lore wise for combo points to be on the target.

Just like how 5 holy power on a paladin is... combo points?

It really irks me to think that some people actually believe that rogues having combo points on themselves would be mimicking another class. Every other class besides druids with any form of "action points" is mimicking us; Not the other way around. Rogues are the original action point class.

And as far as homogenization goes: combo points, holy power, soul shards, shadowy orbs, chi.... Yeah. I'm pretty sure we're past that point already. Blizzard just needs to stop beating around the bush and change it already.

[Deleted]

Well they'd have to change the name from combo points to attack points.

[Curanhadin]

Explain lore because as far as I know there isn't a world of warcraft book out there where a rogue character is attacking someone and adding combo points...

I think I understand what there saying. Its like a boxers setting up a combo to arrange their opponent in a way they can let lose a power punch, or a major league pitcher setting up a batter for the strike out. The rogue toys there target with various moves to set up an opening and they unleash there finisher. That's what I think they meant. My rogue isn't my main but when im playing especially in bgs I hate losing my combo points but it kinda makes sense the way it is. Once you get redirect it helps a lot of sure.

[Psilo]

I'm not a dev but I can see how this could cause burst problems in PvP. Rogue could just stab off-target a couple times and transfer all that stored up potential CC/damage. Redirect has a CD, which inhibits that sort of target swapping.

- - - Updated - - -

You can already do that now with Redirect and the sky hasn't fallen yet.

The sky falls once per minute.

[Statix]

Because it's how the class works and what it's balanced away. With Redirect it really makes no difference anyway.

There's no reason to change it really.

Whenever a target completely disappears (Magaera's heads), the points are completely gone. Especcialy in AOE situations as Assassination I lose a shitload of Combo Points. What's even worse is that whenever your current target dies and you are spamming Fan of Knives on 10+ mobs, it takes ages to find the mob with the Combo Points on it. It definitely makes a difference.

There could obviously be limitations to this. For example, Deadly Throw can only be used on players where the Combo Points were generated.

I don't understand why it's so important for people to have unique game mechanics. Who the hell cares if this makes Rogues look like Monks and Paladins? It's about how the class works, and currently, it doesn't work properly.

Chi and Holy Power can after Combo Points. They are nothing more than an improved copy of Combo Points. They copied it from Rogues and made it better. The original is Combo Points, and they are the worst of the two design.

Don't Monks and Paladins have that burst problem now? Can't they store Chi and Holy Power and open with a very powerful attack on a different target? It's just bullshit. Why on earth did they give Death Knights Runic Power when it works exactly like Rage? It's generated by attacking, being hit, and certain abilities and it's consumed by other abilities. Why did they give Hunters Focus? It's nothing more than Energy with a different name.

[Verain]

I'm going to state this from a PvP balance standpoint.

And I'm going to destroy that with real world data, and the power of "remembering back six months".

I've played Arena at the ratings of 2,400 in all brackets on my Priest and I've played with plenty of rogues. Having one myself and reaching 2,000 rated (as my alt) I will explain from my standpoint as to why rogues should be limited with combo point usage on the target.

I've been above 2300 on my rogue (not THIS season!), and within breathing room of glad on my druid (my spec was borked that tier!). I dunno if that makes your dick a bit longer than mine, but https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-authority might be relevant in any event.

This is pivotal to balancing the PvP scene as if rogues had five combo points all the time on anyone, you could see something like this happen. Gain five combo points on someone, tab to the healer, step kidney the healer and simply run back to killing your target. Bombing after the kidney or following up with a blind.

I refute your point thusly:

Season 12.

During S12, rogues had access to Versatility, which reduced Redirect's cooldown to 0.

No one took it.


More importantly, you are wrong because landing a 6 second stun on a healer doesn't just auto-win. Even landing a six second stun, chaining it into a blind, and dancing on your target doesn't auto-win (and that's a 60 and 120 second cooldown). Ferals have been landing a six second cyclone off of each and every one of their goddamned eviscerate equivalents for years now, and that isn't running them up to glad for free. Not to say that ferals are exactly like rogues or anything, but the point is, just being able to throw a CC at a healer isn't a free win. Pretend you DO do this though. You step a healer with redirect kidney, and then you "run back to your target" (err, hope no one fucks with that, and that you aren't snared, which, SPOILER, you usually are), then what do you do? Start running your rotation and expect to 100->0 them with your partner over those six seconds?

Other classes can do this kind of CC now. They can do it about as often, and without having to waddle across the fucking arena after blowing a cooldown to even show the fuck up.


But, you don't have to deal with just ME calling you wrong. You see, next season should make you pee your pants, if you actually believe what you claim. Because rogues are getting Redirect on a 10 second timer via a glyph. 10 seconds is an eternity when it comes to many of the PvE situations where you need it to be 0, but it's not a big deal in PvP, where you SHOULD see this glyph- and according to you, it will probably be mandatory. 10 seconds is far less than the 20 (really more like 24-ish, with DRs) CD on kidney shotting the healer, and less than the 20 seconds of shadowstep (its getting buffed). So just like S12, when rogues were so absent that they could fairly be called deleted, rogues will again have access to a redirect on a very small cooldown (just not zero this time).


So if you are correct, rogues should fucking DOMINATE. This "redirect, shadowstep, kidney, waddle across arena and hope opponents are just a torso" should RUN THE LADDERS and get some high fucking ratings, and the devs should have to nerf it.




I think, that they will not. I think it will be No Big Deal.

*Edit. Glyph of Redirect is horribly underused in PvP.

So is Glyph of Instant Kill. Because neither exists on live?

Ret Paladins can currently just target something and utilize their Holy Power.

Yea. Or they can just press Fist of Ungreased Justice, which is on a 30 second cooldown, ranged, and doesn't require them to dick around with their holy power. It is dispellable- but not really when you put it on a healer (the number of comps that can magic dispel their healer is pretty low).

Again, rets aren't rogues. When rogues had this power, it made no fucking difference though. We'll see. Maybe you are correct. And even if you are wrong, it could still technically be too powerful.


But I don't think so.

[Pokex]

What about this can't you do right now?

You can't just tab to a healer and kidney. Requires redirect currently.

The fact that There are other classes can do this and easier than rogues (fist of justice, asphyxiate, fists of furry) and arena didn't break so calling that game breaking is little hard to believe.

Fist of Justice is dispelable. Asphyxiate requires a talent and has a lengthy cooldown. Fists of Fury is a channel and you CC yourself during the duration if you're using it to control a healer.

How can something that doesn't even exist yet be under or over used?

I'm talking from where it stands on the PTR and most of the people I've talked to said they won't be using it. I should re-word to you should probably look into using it. Also, a tad bit of internet sarcasm helps.

You know if rogue could do that you know what the target would say in reaction to that happening? "lol rogue just double evis me without find weakness or sv oh no those 20k evis's".

My newest rogue has an ilvl of 477. I get evis's for 50-60K crits in a PvP environment. It would certainly help for swaps if the rogue had the combo points on himself rather than a target. The main issue comes down to CC rather than actual burst. Of course it would be better to vanish when swapping, I'm simply referring to the ability to have the ability to swap with 5cp WHENEVER you want. It wouldn't be good for the state of rogues.

[Siri]

Don't Monks and Paladins have that burst problem now? Can't they store Chi and Holy Power and open with a very powerful attack on a different target? It's just bullshit. Why on earth did they give Death Knights Runic Power when it works exactly like Rage? It's generated by attacking, being hit, and certain abilities and it's consumed by other abilities. Why did they give Hunters Focus? It's nothing more than Energy with a different name.

To be fair the balance issue in PvP is caused by the ability to put Kidneys and Deadly Throws into an off-target at will, not by swapping with an evisc or envenom.

[Azreal313]

If this was actually an issue then Blizzard would've already done this by now.

[Kalmageddon]

Combo Point are on the player when playing the Rogue class....



.... in Rift.

And I love it!

I dont think there would be much of a change, with redirect doing it already and all...

[reckoner04]

I have an even better suggestion: Let's remove combo points completely and just make finishers shared cooldowns. This would be a nice quality of life improvement and combo points are an outdated mechanic anyway.


Fact is, the current implementation (compared to the proposed) is more limiting but allows for skilled play. If you made the proposed change, you would have to compensate the buff by nerfing Rogues overall. You would simply end up with a class that is just as strong as before but doesn't show the difference between good and bad players as much anymore (skill makes less of a difference). I don't think that's what we want.

Also, change just for the heck of it isn't wanted either.

If you just want to be buffed, play a single player game please and use cheats or whatever is fun to you. I like games that promote skillful play, something that Blizzard has neglected too much already with certain spell changes (today's Vanish is so boring).

(The first line was sarcasm in case it didn't translate very well.)

[Azreal313]

Don't Monks and Paladins have that burst problem now? Can't they store Chi and Holy Power and open with a very powerful attack on a different target? It's just bullshit. Why on earth did they give Death Knights Runic Power when it works exactly like Rage? It's generated by attacking, being hit, and certain abilities and it's consumed by other abilities. Why did they give Hunters Focus? It's nothing more than Energy with a different name.

Monks don't know what burst is, only sustain.

[Pokex]

And I'm going to destroy that with real world data, and the power of "remembering back six months".



I've been above 2300 on my rogue (not THIS season!), and within breathing room of glad on my druid (my spec was borked that tier!). I dunno if that makes your dick a bit longer than mine



I refute your point thusly:

Season 12.

During S12, rogues had access to Versatility, which reduced Redirect's cooldown to 0.

No one took it.


More importantly, you are wrong because landing a 6 second stun on a healer doesn't just auto-win. Even landing a six second stun, chaining it into a blind, and dancing on your target doesn't auto-win (and that's a 60 and 120 second cooldown). Ferals have been landing a six second cyclone off of each and every one of their goddamned eviscerate equivalents for years now, and that isn't running them up to glad for free. Not to say that ferals are exactly like rogues or anything, but the point is, just being able to throw a CC at a healer isn't a free win. Pretend you DO do this though. You step a healer with redirect kidney, and then you "run back to your target" (err, hope no one fucks with that, and that you aren't snared, which, SPOILER, you usually are), then what do you do? Start running your rotation and expect to 100->0 them with your partner over those six seconds?

Other classes can do this kind of CC now. They can do it about as often, and without having to waddle across the fucking arena after blowing a cooldown to even show the fuck up.


But, you don't have to deal with just ME calling you wrong. You see, next season should make you pee your pants, if you actually believe what you claim. Because rogues are getting Redirect on a 10 second timer via a glyph. 10 seconds is an eternity when it comes to many of the PvE situations where you need it to be 0, but it's not a big deal in PvP, where you SHOULD see this glyph- and according to you, it will probably be mandatory. 10 seconds is far less than the 20 (really more like 24-ish, with DRs) CD on kidney shotting the healer, and less than the 20 seconds of shadowstep (its getting buffed). So just like S12, when rogues were so absent that they could fairly be called deleted, rogues will again have access to a redirect on a very small cooldown (just not zero this time).


So if you are correct, rogues should fucking DOMINATE. This "redirect, shadowstep, kidney, waddle across arena and hope opponents are just a torso" should RUN THE LADDERS and get some high fucking ratings, and the devs should have to nerf it.




I think, that they will not. I think it will be No Big Deal.



So is Glyph of Instant Kill. Because neither exists on live?



Yea. Or they can just press Fist of Ungreased Justice, which is on a 30 second cooldown, ranged, and doesn't require them to dick around with their holy power. It is dispellable- but not really when you put it on a healer (the number of comps that can magic dispel their healer is pretty low).

Again, rets aren't rogues. When rogues had this power, it made no fucking difference though. We'll see. Maybe you are correct. And even if you are wrong, it could still technically be too powerful.


But I don't think so.

Calm down, betsy. Let me start my stating this: I never said anywhere that Rogues would be gods. I said it would be poor for Arena and it would 'break' arena. If you've truly been 2300 rated before (barring you played a braindead comp such as S10 RLS or something), you would understand how powerful a 20 sec cd 6 sec stun would be. Following that up with another CC from whatever you're playing with and it would be pretty dangerous. Currently redirect kidney is super powerful and it a tool that is vastly underused.

Nobody took versitility because there were much better options.

I took the point of kidney being very strong because it allowed for a lower skill cap in the current game. Yes, ret paladins get a stun on a 30 sec cd that mostly goes on healers. That introduces a low skill cap in the class. With Redirection and Kidney it adds to the skillcap. Hell, you can vanish and garrote/cheap shot if you wanted to. But it introduces a higher skillcap into arena, which is something everyone should fight for. The easier things get in arena, the more boring it becomes.

Landing a 6 sec stun doesn't mean auto-kill. You're right there. I never said it would be an auto-kill though. You're placing words into my typing that never existed. I said it would be -powerful- and it would be powerful. It was my basis on why Combo Points shouldn't be on the player but on the target. This entire discussion should be based around an opinion of why or why not combo points should be on the rogue. I have my thoughts as to why and they are pretty valid.

I do think that you should take glyph of redirect in the next patch. It adds a lot of mobility to our class. However Rogues are pretty glyph starved. You are pretty much required to take either glyph of cheap/garrote based on the comp you're fighting and then you almost always need glyph of blind. If you're fighting a melee cleave glyph of redirect will be godly for peels though.

[Wow]

Fist of Justice is dispelable. Asphyxiate requires a talent and has a lengthy cooldown. Fists of Fury is a channel and you CC yourself during the duration if you're using it to control a healer.

You stun the dispeler... You know that Asphyxiate is the same cd as fist of justice right? Fists of fury only has to hit you once to stun you the stun isn't channeled the dmg is any tick will stun you for full duration.

I'm talking from where it stands on the PTR and most of the people I've talked to said they won't be using it. I should re-word to you should probably look into using it. Also, a tad bit of internet sarcasm helps.

Wait so you say that being able to stun a healer on cd is so good that its game breaking and yet people don't even think the glyph that lets them do that is worth using. Lol way to kill your own argument.

I'm simply referring to the ability to have the ability to swap with 5cp WHENEVER you want. It wouldn't be good for the state of rogues.

"the state of rogues"? You mean the trash pile they've been for 90% of this exp? Omg op cloak and dagger for 2 months out of a year and total shit for the rest.

Did you tell all the people that said the redirect wasn't worth it how its so game breaking that they should take it to ruin arena? Wonder why no one took it when it was a talent since it was so game breaking. The glyph ill see more use than the talent but not by much as there are so many must have glyphs no and in 5.4 even more before redirect glyph could come into play. The bottom line is if it was as powerful as you say it would be then that talent and this glyph would have always been taken period as its the same thing as cp's on the rogue for pvp.

At this point I question your pvp exp as you don't know basic things about other classes cc's. Honestly I don't even know why I replied to someone that just made an account just to say something we already had in s12 with Versatility would be op.

[Verain]

you would understand how powerful a 20 sec cd 6 sec stun would be.

Given the CC chains required to win right now, I don't think it would be anything even remotely interesting or novel. I think if Kidney was goddamned ranged, then we would talk.

Following that up with another CC from whatever you're playing with and it would be pretty dangerous. Currently redirect kidney is super powerful and it a tool that is vastly underused.

Well, you need a step to make it good. But even then, you are giving up the stun on your kill target unless you are going to dance- which takes us back to one minute cooldown land.

Nobody took versitility because there were much better options.

The bad version of Shuriken was the most popular (this was back when it didn't trigger shurikens as autoattacks), and it was by no means good. Anticipation was generally pretty poor. In any event, the fact that this talent was entirely absent should stand for something. It wasn't used in pvp or pve, and it was actually deleted from the game because it sucked a dumptruck of spiked cock compared to two very mediocre-in-pvp talents.

I took the point of kidney being very strong because it allowed for a lower skill cap in the current game. Yes, ret paladins get a stun on a 30 sec cd that mostly goes on healers. That introduces a low skill cap in the class. With Redirection and Kidney it adds to the skillcap. Hell, you can vanish and garrote/cheap shot if you wanted to. But it introduces a higher skillcap into arena, which is something everyone should fight for. The easier things get in arena, the more boring it becomes.

That's not "skillcap" really. That's more like the floor. If you have to fumblebumble to land your CCs where the other guys have one button, that just removes some players from the list who can play that spec in that way. A high skillcap is when the MAX performance goes up. If your class had, say, a three second GCD and a bunch of very straightforward options, then that class has a very low skillcap.

I'll take whatever the going rate for complexity is, thanks much!

It was my basis on why Combo Points shouldn't be on the player but on the target. This entire discussion should be based around an opinion of why or why not combo points should be on the rogue. I have my thoughts as to why and they are pretty valid.

I'm sure as hell gonna disagree, and my prediction is that we are going to see a season of rogues, many of whom use the redirect glyph, and it won't really disturb rogue rep much at all. I don't think you'll see that tactic land that many wins. And if the devs decide, going forward, to make CPs on the rogue for one or more rogue specs, I wouldn't want that to not happen because of some dumb trick that might be possible.

For the purposes of YOUR concern, this next season will 100% test that. Will you change your tune when you don't see this redirect->kidney really fucking matter? Or will you decide that what the community does has no relevance?

I do think that you should take glyph of redirect in the next patch. It adds a lot of mobility to our class. However Rogues are pretty glyph starved. You are pretty much required to take either glyph of cheap/garrote based on the comp you're fighting and then you almost always need glyph of blind. If you're fighting a melee cleave glyph of redirect will be godly for peels though.

Next patch, some rogues (especially RMP) will have the option of skipping glyph of blind. But it will probably feel pretty mandatory. Cheap Shot glyph is possibly droppable, and garrote glyph I think is not mandatory versus everyone.

I do think that the redirect glyph will show up a decent amount. And I think it will be helpful for sure, and great for swaps. But I don't think it will matter. At the end of the day, class uniqueness, kit, flavor, balancing point of dps, are all solid reasons to keep CPs on the target. But PvP? I really don't think so.

[Anonymous1038853]

[...]

You're still discussing raid DPS when my post was centered around PvP. It's a bit silly to claim that my statements are absurd if you apparently haven't taken the time to read them. QED: You're missing (or ignoring) the bigger picture. Secondly, why are you using low-health mobs as your predominant source of concern? This is really the essence of first-world problems, if that's the prime reason why you take umbrage with the current system. I mean, clearly destruction is the go to spec for competitive PvE right now.

[Verain]

You're discussing raid DPS when my post, and the post I quoted, were both centered around PvP. It's a bit silly to claim that my statements are absurd if you apparently haven't taken the time to read them. Secondly, why are you using low-health mobs as your predominant source of concern? This is really the essence of first-world problems, if that's the prime reason why you take umbrage with the current system.

Did you seriously just respond to a post that made involving nothing but pvp talk, with "yadda yadda raid dps?"

Dislike


Raid participation- and out performance on moderate and low health mobs- is a solid reason to have on spec with combo points on the rogue.

This is unlikely to have huge pvp ramifications, as I point out in my previous posts.