Alliance players have a right to be angry with MoP

[Deleted]

Honey, (Since we've taken to using those kinds of honorifics) it's not a lore thing that makes it oh-so-obvious. It's common sense.

"Let's see. We're in land we don't own against two separate large forces; One of which holds the power of a dark god and the others who are whipped up into a frenzy unlike any seen by their kind before. Their allies are here, our forces are low in number because we only have what we could take in some ships, and they know the area ten times better than us. I wonder who has the advantage when the big bad is gone?"

Wanna describe to me how it's not obvious that they shouldn't stay there any longer than necessary, nor piss off the Horde?

Okay, so be it.

But please have at least a modicum of decency to get off your high horse when a dozen-or-so angry threads roll out after SoO unfolds. There is simply too many of you on this board who love to shower others with hatred and contempt as soon as they open their mouths to voice their disapproval - perhaps the healing of this fanbase needs to begin with the 'doctors' themselves, eh?

[Granyala]

There is simply too many of you on this board who love to shower others with hatred and contempt as soon as they open their mouths to voice their disapproval.

I feel neither hatred nor contempt towards you.
I just wanted to point out, that it doesn't make sense what Alliance players are crying for.

Fact: Alliance and Horde are roughly equal in power.
Fact: We also have other forces at work that are just waiting for us to squander our resources so they can attack.
Fact: We will require the Hordes cooperation when the time comes and the Legion attacks again.
Assumption: Both factions are tired of warfare.

Conclusion: Subduing the horde isn't possible, since that would be required to hold Orgrimmar, holding Orgrimmar isn't possible. Also we need to create a diplomatic bond. Annexing a capital city and displacing every remaining Orc from his new home will accomplish the exact opposite.

It's not a matter of Alliance vs Horde bias or bad writing, it is a simple matter of logic.
And no: I did not read any books relevant to the recent story lines.

[Aquamonkey]

wrong attitude to have. Like saying last of us shouldn't have story, cause its a game.
There are studios that believe in story first or world first or maybe social first. Blizzard is gameplay first. (Source)

conquered a city but after the raid it will be a horde city again, Theramore is still a hole in the ground
If this was a single player or non-persistent game, we'd consider removing one faction's capital permanently. (Source)

Was stunned that you broke the timeline in Cata and shrugged it off. Lore (& community) should be top, not bottom priority.
Lore is important. A fun expansion is more important. (Source)

Example of game mechanics needing to trump in-universe logic. AvH always going to be central theme, says Metzen.
The story is always going to serve the needs of the game, not the other way around. We understand that doesn't sit well with all. (Source)

It would be nice to know what we worked towards somthing in MoP, deposed one Horde Warmonger for another not cool.
H and A competed over the newly rediscovered continent. It ended up coming at a huge cost though. (Source)

I agree, progressive phasing would help keep the world large and alive. The world shrinks as zones become irrelevant.
That provides gameplay though. That's a different argument IMO from Alliance get Ashenvale just for a sense of victory. (Source)

[Deleted]

I feel neither hatred nor contempt towards you.
I just wanted to point out, that it doesn't make sense what Alliance players are crying for.

Fact: Alliance and Horde are roughly equal in power.
Fact: We also have other forces at work that are just waiting for us to squander our resources so they can attack.
Fact: We will require the Hordes cooperation when the time comes and the Legion attacks again.
Assumption: Both factions are tired of warfare.

Conclusion: Subduing the horde isn't possible, since that would be required to hold Orgrimmar, holding Orgrimmar isn't possible. Also we need to create a diplomatic bond. Annexing a capital city and displacing every remaining Orc from his new home will accomplish the exact opposite.

It's not a matter of Alliance vs Horde bias or bad writing, it is a simple matter of logic.
And no: I did not read any books relevant to the recent story lines.

Ah yes. So of all the years worth of my experience with World of Warcraft and other fantasy franchises this may be the FIRST time I get to see one side being sent into the fray without any foreword or briefing... and it is suddenly a staple of good, reasonable storytelling that EVERY rational being will comprehend right away. Okay. Perhaps I expected too much. After all, this game should be about gear score number crunching, no?

[Deleted]

Fact: Alliance and Horde are roughly equal in power.
Fact: We also have other forces at work that are just waiting for us to squander our resources so they can attack.
Fact: We will require the Hordes cooperation when the time comes and the Legion attacks again.

1. No, they're not. At least not in anyway that makes one iota of sense. The "equality" of the Alliance and the Horde has been something pulled out of the developer's asses for years. They are only "equal" because Metzen has said so and WoW's faction balance has demanded it. The Horde has no history of industrial development, civics, an advanced economy, an established intelligentsia, a coherent system of governance, or any of the major pillars of an advanced civilization like the Alliance does. It simply achieved parity because...poof. Don't get me started on the Horde Navy, which is somehow equal to the Alliance's despite its inconvenient nonexistence for decades.

2. Same old story. We all know there will be a new threat to take on.

3. Why? Why would anyone want to trust the Horde at this point? The Horde can't even handle its own leaders and has completely failed as a political institution. It's an autocracy with all power vested in its Warchief. Its leaders have been shown to be either impotent or genocidal maniacs, with no middle ground. Vol'jin, Lor'themar, Thrall, and Baine all went along with Garrosh's stupid, racist, genocidal policies until everything went to hell, which resulted in the utter corruption of the heart of an entire continent. Sylvanas, meanwhile, has openly sworn to kill every non-Forsaken being on the planet, defied her own Warchief, and willfully committed biological warfare without giving it a second thought. The Horde simply does not work. I hate to drag in the dead horse of Hitler here, but nobody in their right mind would have suggested the Western powers keep the Axis governments mostly intact and simply replace their leaders. Unless the Horde is subjected to some serious reforms--you know, instead of just the Grand Reset Button and a new Warchief, it'd be better off being crushed into the ground.

I can just picture how easy it would be for the Legion to co-opt, recruit, and/or corrupt so many elements in the Horde whenever it returns.

[Granyala]

one side being sent into the fray without any foreword or briefing... and it is suddenly a staple of good, reasonable storytelling that EVERY rational being will comprehend right away.

Umm.. you assume that our heroes get to see every political issue behind the scenes.
I seriously doubt that. While we kill stuff, Diplomats will work in the background.

Granted, the RPG nerd inside me would love witnessing these negotiations, but considering WoWs main audience, that barely reads a few lines of Quest text, I can see why Blizzard doesn't bothers and leaves the details for the books. :/

3. Why?

Simple: Alone the Human-alliance couldn't even handle a few pathetic zombies. (Warcraft III)
How do you think they'd fare against a full attack of the Legion itself?
It's not really a matter of "can we trust them?" it's "we don't have any choice". At least it was like that in the past.

Unless the Horde is subjected to some serious reforms

The Warchief makes the politics.
Almost all of the Horde is sick and tired of Garroshs reign.
There is no way the next Warchief will continue on that path. He will most certainly put in a lot of reforms and change stuff.

Ofc, the interesting question is, if and how Blizzard will show that in the game in 6.0+.

I can just picture how easy it would be for the Legion to co-opt, recruit, and/or corrupt so many elements in the Horde whenever it returns.

Oh please. Kel'Thuzad was human. Kael'thas was elven. Illidan was Kal'dorei. If the legion wants to corrupt, political ideals and structures won't stand in their way.

[Deleted]

Umm.. you assume that our heroes get to see every political issue behind the scenes.
I seriously doubt that. While we kill stuff, Diplomats will work in the background.

Granted, the RPG nerd inside me would love witnessing these negotiations, but considering WoWs main audience, that barely reads a few lines of Quest text, I can see why Blizzard doesn't bothers and leaves the details for the books. :/

They already did it before. Reach with your memory to the time when you have made your last Death Knight. After being forsaken by his/her creator, fledgling Death Knight journeys to the gates of SW palace grounds, bearing the marks of all sorts of detritus that the local populace threw in an outburst of hatred and vengeance. Death Knight approaches Varian to plead allegiance to him and his faction.

Now, there is a good handful of reasons as to why our DK needs to be embraced as an ally and asset - reasons that can be easily entertained:

>A formidable warrior eager to seek redemption in battle against the foe that Alliance needs to fight anyway;
>An experienced, fully equipped soldier arrives at a time when manpower is running thin due to sudden Scourge encroachment;
>A combatant with first-hand knowledge regarding the newfound foe;
>Others

As you can see, technically Varian would only need to say "OK, you're in." given the weight of arguments that can be extracted.
BUT! Blizzard wants to give proper immersive introduction. So Varian actually lectures the Death Knight on why he hasn't squashed the recently freed agent of scourge. Even more- -he yells to the whole city that only a minute earlier was about to lynch a newcomer -he yells that this is a new ally that needs to be embraced despite his/her crimes.

This is why I still hold some hope for even a few words of introduction before the troops are ordered to load the ships.

[Aquamonkey]

I listend to the Dave Kosak interview, and its just disappointing to see that a leading dev does not understand the Alliance playerbase,

and more disappointing that he expects us Alliance playerbase to fist-pump because he said they gave fist-pumping moments (WHICH WERE NOT) to Alliance players.

Do they even read the forums at all?
Read the forums? Sure. We also send them reports of the hot topics on the forums, which oftentimes include Alliance concerns about story development.

Take feedback from the forums as design gospel and an appropriate summation of all player opinions? No. (Source)

[Deleted]

I listend to the Dave Kosak interview, and its just disappointing to see that a leading dev does not understand the Alliance playerbase,

and more disappointing that he expects us Alliance playerbase to fist-pump because he said they gave fist-pumping moments (WHICH WERE NOT) to Alliance players.

Do they even read the forums at all?
Read the forums? Sure. We also send them reports of the hot topics on the forums, which oftentimes include Alliance concerns about story development.

Take feedback from the forums as design gospel and an appropriate summation of all player opinions? No. (Source)

How many people on here have implied that what they are saying is what MUST be implemented and listened to word-for-word by the developers regardless of context and consequences AND it is this action that will change their stance on the game they are playing and its devs? A very scarce vocal minority, that is who.

[Grimble]

Fact: We will require the Hordes cooperation when the time comes and the Legion attacks again.

So tired of hearing this. At this point I'd sooner team up with the Big Bad Of The Week and beat up the Horde rather than the other way around.

[TheRagebear]

The only reason I find it hard to imagine a truly happy Alliance playerbase is not due to the lore-shortcomings they currently have; Instead, it's because of how hard it is to please the Alliance fanbase. They had one of our figureheads taken from us and made neutral (Who, really, should have always been neutral due to his stance on the war but ignoring that) to quest with, and all they did was complain. When the same happened to their character (Anduin) they complained EVEN HARDER. When the big bad Garrosh started wrecking shit as we always knew he would, they complained they didn't feel important enough. When they essentially thwarted his plans to ruin everything, they complained that they're taking a back seat and not doing anything unless the Horde does something first. 5.3 is a valid reason to be upset, the Alliance questline should have been much more interesting. But in 5.4, the storyline is the exact same for both sides, and what do we get? Alliance complaining that they don't know whether or not the Horde suffers reparations from the invasion!

All I've heard this entire expansion is Alliance complaining. I thoroughly enjoyed questing on my human paladin, and saw no reason to complain. I leveled a Draenei warrior as well, still no reason to complain. Loved every minute on Pandaria as my Alliance characters. But I was just so sick of hearing people complain that 'the story isn't good enough' from Alliance players, and now I'm back to my Horde roots.

Yes. We'll never be happy with anything we're given.

We have no reason to complain about the ninety different unresolved storylines that were started in Cataclysm.
We have no reason to complain about every non-human race being ignored or portrayed as incompetent, impatient children because making the humans seem admirable on their own merits is too hard.
We have no reason to complain that even when we do win, no one even knows until someone asks the devs themselves because they can't be bothered to simply say ingame "Oh, yeah, the Alliance won Krasarang. Whoo."

We're sorry for being so very ungrateful.

[TheRagebear]

I recall one, being Twilight Highlands intro.

Ashenvale, Stonetalon, Gilneas, Andorhol/the Plaguelands/Thassarian and Koltira. The list goes on.

I could have told you the Alliance won in Krasarang. You pretty much stopped Garrosh's plot to use the Divine Bell, what more could they do to show you that was a victory? (Sidenote: Unless you planned to have an Alliance only daily hub, this literally is not something that can be shown in game. The 'it's not shown in game' argument holds no water, especially since you do watch Anduin, the supposedly neutral character, smash the Divine Bell.)

Nevermind how that constitutes a victory as if the Horde just up and pulled out after losing the bell, but how is Anduin supposedly neutral? What evidence is there to deny that he's not? The only possible way he could even begin to seem aligned Alliance is if you didn't know that Garrosh was the end boss.

[Deleted]

...The more I read about Alliance people "having a right to be angry", the more I realize all they really do is whine, at least for a (sad) majority of them...

Alliance LAYS SIEGE ON THE HORDE'S CAPITAL and SLAYS THE WARCHIEF, wether you give a damn about the Horde Rebellion or not.
Transpose this on the opposite point of view :
Would you call the Horde besieging Stormwind, killing every human found during the raid, and slaying Varian Wrynn a fist-bumping moment, or would you say it's nothing because the Defias Brotherhood and the other Alliance races helped a bit ?

True Orcs dwell in honor, and by besieging Orgrimmar, then retreating after the job's done, Alliance both raped the Orcs' honor, and made them in debt since they didn't act like douchebags after killing Garrosh. Would you rather have all Horde players locked in a prison for a few months ? What would you do to please BOTH playerbases ?

Nevertheless, Alliance wins this XPac, realize it, please.

[Granyala]

You pretty much stopped Garrosh's plot to use the Divine Bell, what more could they do to show you that was a victory?

I'd loved to actually see Velen heal Anduin.

I think the transition from <almost dead> to <playing chess with Wrathion> was a little too abrupt. :/
Also 5.3 was pretty umm.... nonexistent for Alliance. But as far as I've read, it wasn't really "epic-lore" for Horde either.

[TheRagebear]

I'd loved to actually see Velen heal Anduin.

I think the transition from <almost dead> to <playing chess with Wrathion> was a little too abrupt. :/
Also 5.3 was pretty umm.... nonexistent for Alliance. But as far as I've read, it wasn't really "epic-lore" for Horde either.

lol Velen didn't even heal him apparently. When you talk to Anduin in the veiled stair with Wrathion he gives credit to PANDAREN MISTWEAVERS.

[TheRagebear]

Ashenvale is pretty conclusive, if I recall correctly. As was Gilneas, and the Plaguelands. Leaving due to being outnumbered is not an unfinished questline, it is a questline where the story is conclusive for the time being and may or may not be revisited at a later date. I will admit that I never did Stonetalon as Alliance (Nor did I know the Alliance still even had quests there.) so I can't speak for that.

I'm using the age-old argument that Alliance players have used since the start of MoP, that since Anduin was a questgiver for both factions he is therefore neutral. (Despite this same tendency not extending to Thrall in Cataclysm, since they didn't want to follow around the 'Horde posterchild.')

The night elves cleansed the Forest Heart and were preparing for a counterattack when you're just sent off to Stonetalon to follow a goblin bomb -- a bomb carried by hot air balloon, no less. The Gilneans continued to fight throughout Hillsbrad albeit unsuccessfully, but the fact is that we never got to see it. And regardless of being outnumbered (even though the Argent Dawn is a short walk north doing who the hell knows what,) we still didn't get to see what happened to Thassarian.

And I thought you were arguing that Anduin WASN'T neutral. I think Alliance players are so hostile towards Thrall because even though he's declared 'neutral' he still goes out of his way to bash Alliance aggressors and people who mess with orcs, while Malfurion literally gives no shits about his own people.

[slackjawsix]

so the alliance are suppose to take over orgrimmar and run the horde like post WW2 germany? now thats story inbalance

[Thetruth1400]

...The more I read about Alliance people "having a right to be angry", the more I realize all they really do is whine, at least for a (sad) majority of them...

Alliance LAYS SIEGE ON THE HORDE'S CAPITAL and SLAYS THE WARCHIEF, wether you give a damn about the Horde Rebellion or not.
Transpose this on the opposite point of view :
Would you call the Horde besieging Stormwind, killing every human found during the raid, and slaying Varian Wrynn a fist-bumping moment, or would you say it's nothing because the Defias Brotherhood and the other Alliance races helped a bit ?

True Orcs dwell in honor, and by besieging Orgrimmar, then retreating after the job's done, Alliance both raped the Orcs' honor, and made them in debt since they didn't act like douchebags after killing Garrosh. Would you rather have all Horde players locked in a prison for a few months ? What would you do to please BOTH playerbases ?

Nevertheless, Alliance wins this XPac, realize it, please.

The only problem is, they're not showing the Alliance win. Sure, there's a raid on a Horde capital city, but we still don't know how it plays out. You know what else is a raid on capitals cities? Killing the faction leaders of that achievement. Everyone can do that with every faction leader. It's not really that epic. Sure, the end result is slightly different in that after killing Garrosh, there will be a new leader in place, but that's really it.

It makes no sense to just leave saying, "Okay, he's gone, you're fine now." That's not how war works for the losers. I know it's a game with two factions, but there are plenty of other options for an ending that does actually show the Horde loss and Alliance win. Phasing technology has existed for over half of the games life now. This is more then the perfect time to actually see it in action to show the loss and win. Horde crammed into a smaller portion of Org with Human guards everywhere, I don't think that's too much to ask. A few key places reclaimed for the Alliance that have been phased to show the win since those Horde forces would have been pulled back to Org to either help fight or help defend Garrosh.

The only way to appease both factions is for Alliance to have a clear and dominant victory over the Horde, while Horde doesn't have their game play altered to the point of unplayability. Phasing, like above, would take care of both of those things. Horde still get their capital, although a smaller version of it under guard, while Alliance gets the phased zones back that Horde have massively out leveled by that point anyway. It's a win / win that everyone can be happy about. If they will, that's another story though.

Alliance can, will, and shouldn't be happy with coming out with nothing other then a displaced Horde leader. It's a shallow victory for a dominant situation. Alliance should have the power here to either sit back and let the Horde destroy itself or to go in and help. If Varian is as intelligent and patient as they're building him up to be, he'd let them dwindle themselves, then go in and mop up the entire Horde, not just the loyalists. Without that, Alliance can't have a victory here in all honesty because the players know any other action is stupid.

[Faroth]

What would you do to please BOTH playerbases ?

Honestly, here are the main things I would have changed about MoP to please the Alliance without impacting the Horde.

Purge of Dalaran
I would COMPLETELY drop the idea that Varian was working to bring the blood elves into the Alliance. That information by itself makes Dalaran a complete SNAFU, a total failure, and a LOSS for the Alliance, not a victory. The way Blizzard put it in game, the Alliance's "big victory" is to gain a city they would have already had, lost the Sunreavers as an Alliance faction, and lost Silvermoon itself as an Alliance city (lore wise). The blood elves are never going to flip sides from gameplay perspective, so why bring it up for the story as it only serves to undercut the victory of Dalaran being an Alliance city.

Without the purge, Dalaran AND Silvermoon would have likely been Alliance cities, so Dalaran is really a loss for the Alliance in that respect.

I would have had active Horde agents in Dalaran, having just infiltrated the city intent on taking it for the Horde by killing off the Kirin Tor. The Alliance player would fight them off and kill them, then deal with the Sunreavers and imprisoning them for questioning until everything is sorted out. This could still establish Lor'themar's fury for Garrosh and still see Jaina as overreacting by blaming the Sunreavers for the infiltration and attack. The Horde would still keep their jail break scenario in its entirety but there would be more clear reason for the purge and the Horde would actually fail in an attack and be defeated for a change and have no indication of the blood elves in negotiations with Varian.

Trials of the Supreme Allied Commander
I'm going to only use the scenarios in game here.

For A Little Patience, I would have reversed the roles. I would have had Varian hesitant because Anduin has informed him the temple is a sacred place, but seeing little option but to press their advantage. Make him the one about to make the mistake, though not happy about the situation. Tyrande would then be the one to offer an alternative and lay the traps for the orcs. Her dialogue could still be very aggressive, venomous towards the orcs and clearly eager to kill every last one of them, but making it a point that "they will die how we choose." Concluding the scenario, Varian would comment on how he better understands Tyrande and her people's methods and tactics. Throwing in his experience in Ashenvale gave him great understanding of the worgens' strengths but he wasn't as close to the night elves' tactics. Knowing both will be greatly valuable in the future and Tyrande could reply to the effect that it is good to see he is able to observe and learn from his allies.

Blood in the Snow I would have kept mainly as it is but this time have Varian offering his assistance to deal with trolls in the dwarves' land and I would have had the dwarves come to an arrangement ahead of time. Varian would be under Moira, or the Council's command in the scenario and join the battle alongside the dwarves at the end. Moira would come out showing full support from the Dark Irons and the Bronzebeards would note that Varian is not too proud to be commanded, showing some humility from the king. The Wildhammers, with no interest in owning Ironforge, would be the clan to stay behind while Bronzebeards and Dark Irons marched with Varian.

Preferably, we would have had a scenario with the draenei and something with the gnomes as well. At the end of these scenarios, the Alliance Leaders would gather for a council (like in Cataclysm) and they would name Varian Supreme Allied Commander. Varian would again show his humility in being given the title, and make a small speech of how Anduin Lothar was like a second father, and the man he looks up to more than anyone. To be given the title Lothar once held, and Turalyon after him, would be a great honor, he'd do his best to lead them in the coming battles against Garrosh, and that he's learned much from each of them and he believes he can utilize their strengths to work cohesively for a Siege on Orgrimmar.

Preparing for the Siege
For the Durotar quests, I would have established a small camp at the border of Durotar and Barrens with Shandris Feathermoon, night elves, Draenei, and Sully & Amber. Rather than a cat, you'd go with a night elf priestess of the moon & Sully to stealth around Orgrimmar's area. You'd still obtain the pieces of information and free the troll, but you'd mark some named orcs for sniping by Amber similar to the quest with Gizmo & Socks.

Upon returning to camp, the troll you rescued would approach and be brought to Shandris. She'd deliver a request for a meeting between Shandris and Vol'jin, but Shandris would send the player as her representative. I think this would be crucial in shifting the tone of the Alliance players' views because Vol'jin would be reaching out to ask for help (hell, he asked for Alliance help in Cataclysm!) as Baine advised him to. This would also show the Horde that Vol'jin listens to his friends' advice and be a little bit of a mirror of Thrall not listening to Cairne while Vol'jin does listen to Baine.

Essentially the same quest, but a little more aggression with the assassinations and you'd have a military leader making the decision to parlay with Vol'jin rather than a field agent. You'd also give the Alliance the appearance of preparing to invade and lay siege rather than just 2 agents in the entire area.

[Deleted]

snip

A good read. Let me answer it.
I agree with you that the Alliance retreat is kinda illogical, but if I put myself on the Alliance point of view, and considering the little we know about the situation post-siege, I'd rather see the Alliance troops retreating than putting the remaining orcs in camps etc like they did at the end of the 2nd war. There's nothing "interesting" strategically speaking in Durotar. No ressources, nothing. It's "only" home to the orcs, specially BECAUSE it's a barren land.
On the other hand, your phasing idea is quite logical and "reasonable". We COULD have a "neutral" portion of Orgrimmar, but again, this would create balance problems, both considering your "leader killing" example or simply equality between factions.

My main point now : we don't know how this all ends.

Maybe there will be human (NPCs) overseeing in Org during patch 5.5 until next xpac (would make a nice pre-expension event for Horde players ), maybe the Siege ends with Infernals raining from the sky as soon as Garrosh is dead, maybe Velen or someone has a vision that forces the Alliance forces to withdraw in order to prepare for something else (next xpac again).

We'll both have to wait and see, but again, Alliance wins this xpac, lorewise, just like they did get the canon final blow on most raid bosses (except during cata), you just have to realize it, guys