Tested it yesterday, multistrike does proc from EoL, but isn't affected by mastery. Didn't tested cleave.
If the cleave trinket also works in the same way they it should be exactly 3.11% of raw healing before overheal.
old mistweaver probably still better than u
>"Notice how you need MORE intellect at 60k spellpower to produce a given increase in healing, but the cleave and amp trinkets pretty much produce the same % increase no matter how much spellpower you have."
Both of us literally conjured up numbers out of thin air. The only problem is you took the numbers I provided as verbatim and tried to refute them instead of actually looking at the point I was trying to make -- the relative value of a fixed amount of Intellect/Spellpower diminishes as the rest of your gear improves. I'm not entirely sure you grasped the fact that I was actually in agreement with you here.
>"The diminishing returns on spellpower just don't work like you think at all."
Spellpower increases the amount of healing done linearly, that's just what Spellpower does. It does more or less for certain spells and the relative benefit at different item levels varies but the amount it increases/decreases is always linear.
Once you start doing your calculations based on Intellect though all that goes out the window, because Intellect grants Crit.
The healing benefit via Spellpower from Intellect increases linearly. The amount of healing provided from Crits can be averaged out. But, and this is a big one: Crits for Discipline do not actually heal for more (.. excluding external factors). They apply an absorb via Divine Aegis. This is where things stop being linear and simple to model. Divine Aegis caps at 60% of a players health, lasts 15 seconds, can be refreshed, and stacks with itself.
Here's an example of why I think making a distinction between Intellect and Spellpower is important:
If a player is at 25% health with a fully capped Divine Aegis on them that is about to expire, you Flash Heal them and it crits how do you quantify the value of the fact that it crit? Completely ignoring the crit component granted by Intellect makes for a very mediocre overhealing model as crits can bring value that isn't immediately obvious just from looking at raw output. That Divine Aegis could make the difference between a player living or dying within the next GCD. In the short term it might look like the Crit component of that Flash Heal was 100% overheal but realistically it actually most likely reduced total overhealing over the course of the fight.
>"This is why I am ignoring it, an extra thing to calculate that only changes things by +/- 15% or so."
I'm fully aware that the amount of Crit you gain from Intellect is small. That's not the point, you're completely ignoring the interaction Crit has with overhealing for Disc Priests and yet at the same time you're trying to model overhealing. There's a huge disconnect between what actually happens in-game and what you're trying to model, which is something you should strive to avoid when theorycrafting and not actively seek out just to prove a point.
I'm not actually sure if the multistrike/cleave trinkets can proc Divine Aegis or not, but let's give them the benefit of the doubt though and assume that they can and all they have to do is crit.
Even in this scenario they are severely devalued for Disc:
A) The multistrike/cleave has a much greater chance of being pure overheal than the initial heal simply because another large direct heal just went out in order to trigger their procs in the first place.
B) Even if the multistrike/cleave procs do Crit and trigger DA there's a pretty decent chance that at least a portion of the Divine Aegis they would apply would push the existing DA over the 60% cap which means even more overhealing.
C) Even if the multistrike/cleave procs do Crit and trigger DA and none of this is overhealing they're still devalued simply because with the amount of Crit Disc Priests run with the DA that got refreshed by the cleave/multistrike proc was probably already at or near full duration already.
Barring extreme niche situations I'm fairly confident the cleave/multistrike trinkets are total garbage for Disc simply because they don't interact with our toolkit well. You'll pretty much be 100% dependant on Legendary cloak procs to make their overhealing actually useful.
The point I was trying to make with the last post I made that you responded to Havoc12:
If you want your comparisons "Y Intellect is equivalent to X% Healing Increase at Z iLvl" to be taken seriously either factor in the crit component of Intellect and don't just pretend it isn't there, do your comparisons as "Y Spellpower is equivalent to X% Healing Increase at Z iLvl" or accept the fact that your information is considerably less useful for Disc Priests because you've chosen to ignore something utterly integral to the spec.
I feel like I'm just repeating things that have already been said a dozen times at this point, bleh.
I really don't understand why you bothered to write a whole paragraph to nitpick on something trivial. Using spellpower as the conversion for % healing is pointless, because it is not directly comparable to intellect. The only viable comparison is to convert to intellect. You can choose to ignore crit to simplify the calculation, for small values of intellect, with acceptable losses in accuracy.
You have written a ton of qualitative arguments, which are pretty much meaningless, but haven't bothered to spend 2 minutes adding crit in to see just how much of a difference it makes. It is absolutely trivial to factor crit in and also pointless since it doesn't change the conclusions. Refresh and overcapping for aegis are trivial as can be seen from any disc log.
What makes it even more pointless, is that the amp trinket is by far the best trinket for disc. It is better than any other T16 and T15 trinket, since the crit healing boost (assuming it is fixed to match the tooltip value) represents an effective 7% boost to crit rate for aegis creation and also adds 7% of your crit rate as a healing bonus.
You don't know how the multistrike and cleave trinkets will work unless you see the damage pattern. What we care is what % of your healing they are on the logs. If they don't proc off absorbs though it is certain that they are not suitable for disc. If they do proc off absorbs then they will be better for throughput than any T16 regen trinket and all T15 trinkets, even if flat intellect trinkets add some crit. Your confidence is based on qualitative arguments and does not have a solid basis.
It is highly likely that disc will mostly run with the amp trinket and one of the T16 regen trinkets, but if people want to run two throughput trinkets, then cleave or multistrike will be the best option if they work off absorbs. If they don't work off absorbs then two throughput trinkets for disc won't be viable.
Last edited by Havoc12; 2013-09-01 at 12:06 AM.
Ok I had a look at the trinkets again last night during LFR testing. The multistrike trinket is exactly 4.3% of raw HPS for holy as predicted. Mileage does vary based on overheal though. The cleave trinket has no discrernible spell on in-game logs. I don't see any healing spell called cleave or anything like that on Skada. I am going to save the actual logs and look at them. To search for it.
Hmmm, it seems I neglected the fact that the proc rate changes depending on ilvl. It shouldn't be 4.3% of raw healing on LFR. I think multistrike might not be behaving as expected.
Can you activate 2 "on use" trinkets at the same time?
I have the +30k mana on use shadowpan trinket, and I'd also like to wear the + spirit or whatever the burning ember trinket is for dat massive mana regen.
Oh it only gives 8k spirit(4k mana/5 for 15 seconds). Worthless nevermind.
Last edited by Fluttershy; 2013-09-03 at 07:59 AM.
In this case, it's safe to assume they can be freely used together.
This is odd I am looked through the log and on recount and on skada and after a whole night of PTR testing there is not a single mention of a heal named Cleave.....
I need to find somewhere to test if the thing is actually procing.
Edit: Others are reporting the same thing. Something wrong with the trinket probably.