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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Havoc12 View Post
    See that is why I get annoyed. I will repost it for you.



    As you can see the diminising returns on spellpower ramps up quite slowly because the denominator is 1+K*spellpower and K<<1. This is why the hc amp trinket with 9% on everything is not really any better compared to same ilvl trinket than the normal or LFR versions are.

    To show you how slowly lets redo the calculation with 55k spellpower

    1000*0.000104157691/(1+0.000104157691*55000) = 0.015479677928. An increase of 10% in spellpower is only an 8% drop in the conversion.

    1800 intellect at 520 ilvl (~40k spellpower) is a 4.75% increase. At 580 ilvl (~60k spellpower) it is a 3.4%. This is though with zero overheal. The diminishing returns on spellpower just don't work like you think at all. Also the value of intellect decreases with overheal, which needs to be taken into account (see below). The 1350 odd intellect you need for a 3% increase at 50k spellpower becomes 3.6% at 40k spellpowerl and 2.6% at 60k spellpower. It would take 110k intellect before it is busted down to 1.5%. I.e. you need your spellpower to nearly tripple in order to cut its value by half.

    Notice how you need MORE intellect at 60k spellpower to produce a given increase in healing, but the cleave and amp trinkets pretty much produce the same % increase no matter how much spellpower you have.

    Thus the more spellpower you have the better the trinkets are compared with a flat intellect value, because they scale as % points. I took a low value of spellpower to calculate a minimum ceiling. This is the best case scenario effectively.

    1000 intellect increases crit by 0.44%, which is ~0.4% healing with 30% aegis and 30% crit. This is why I am ignoring it, an extra thing to calculate that only changes things by +/- 15% or so.

    1350 intellect produces a 3% increase at 50k spellpower AT ZERO OVERHEAL. At 30% overheal and assuming linear losses, which is not necessarily valid, you would need 1930 intellect to produce a 3% increase. Based on a more complex modeling of overheal I estimate that you would need ~1800 intellect (not spellpower) for a 3% increase when your overheal is 30%. This modelling includes the 0.8% extra crit you get from 1800 intellect.

    When I say multistrike above I mean cleave. The multistrike trinket looks ok on paper, but suffers greatly from overhealing, so it may not work well for holy. The cleave trinket is less good on.

    I am always happy to discuss, but with numbers. If you just want to tell me what your gut instinct says, without bothering to do even rudimentary calculations or at least reading through mine, is not a discussion.

    If you feel that my model is not valid, feel free to provide your own estimate and lets see if its different.
    Modelling is all well and good, but I would prefer some logs from PTR that show what % it actually does. So far the only non-theoretical data on the subject is "never surpassed 2.5% of my healing". We seem to be locked into a cyclic argument of "it does less than 3% healing" "but it SHOULD do 3%" "but it doesn't" "but it SHOULD".

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by dmfg View Post
    Modelling is all well and good, but I would prefer some logs from PTR that show what % it actually does. So far the only non-theoretical data on the subject is "never surpassed 2.5% of my healing". We seem to be locked into a cyclic argument of "it does less than 3% healing" "but it SHOULD do 3%" "but it doesn't" "but it SHOULD".
    Rae said it was 2.5%, for me it was 3%. Another person also reported it at 3%. I saw a couple of logs with it at ~3%. The cleave trinket is basically 3% of your healing. The theoretical prediction is more or less pointless, except as a benchmark, because it is a zero overheal scenario and we aren't quite sure how the cleave trinket interacts with ticking HoTs. The 3% value I am using comes from live data rather than a theoretical prediction.

  3. #83
    Pit Lord HeatherRae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havoc12 View Post
    Rae said it was 2.5%, for me it was 3%. Another person also reported it at 3%. I saw a couple of logs with it at ~3%. The cleave trinket is basically 3% of your healing. The theoretical prediction is more or less pointless, except as a benchmark, because it is a zero overheal scenario and we aren't quite sure how the cleave trinket interacts with ticking HoTs. The 3% value I am using comes from live data rather than a theoretical prediction.
    I've been hearing that Monks are getting fairly insane returns from Multistrike (one told me his were in the neighborhood of 7-8% of his healing), but I'm not sure how they're getting that. I have a sneaking suspicion (but one I can confirm yet) that Multistrike and Cleave may be proccing off of Echo of Light. I know they can proc off of each other, as well.
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  4. #84
    Tested it yesterday, multistrike does proc from EoL, but isn't affected by mastery. Didn't tested cleave.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Akedar View Post
    Tested it yesterday, multistrike does proc from EoL, but isn't affected by mastery. Didn't tested cleave.
    If it procs from mastery then the scaling is linear as I calculated above so about 4.3% of raw healing before overheal. If multistrike also proced further EoL, then it would double dip on mastery. I suspect monks have double dipping somewhere on the multistrike proc if the return is higher than that.

    If the cleave trinket also works in the same way they it should be exactly 3.11% of raw healing before overheal.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by HeatherRae View Post
    I've been hearing that Monks are getting fairly insane returns from Multistrike (one told me his were in the neighborhood of 7-8% of his healing), but I'm not sure how they're getting that. I have a sneaking suspicion (but one I can confirm yet) that Multistrike and Cleave may be proccing off of Echo of Light. I know they can proc off of each other, as well.
    Multistrike? No. From Thok's though it has been changed to be similar to Tarecgosa in that the proc actually counts as the same heal it procced from. Since it's smart it ends up making our mastery somewhat better since it doesn't proc from overheal. I can tell you with 99% certainty that it will be proccing off EoL, it also procs from GotS.
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  7. #87
    >"Notice how you need MORE intellect at 60k spellpower to produce a given increase in healing, but the cleave and amp trinkets pretty much produce the same % increase no matter how much spellpower you have."
    Both of us literally conjured up numbers out of thin air. The only problem is you took the numbers I provided as verbatim and tried to refute them instead of actually looking at the point I was trying to make -- the relative value of a fixed amount of Intellect/Spellpower diminishes as the rest of your gear improves. I'm not entirely sure you grasped the fact that I was actually in agreement with you here.

    >"The diminishing returns on spellpower just don't work like you think at all."
    Spellpower increases the amount of healing done linearly, that's just what Spellpower does. It does more or less for certain spells and the relative benefit at different item levels varies but the amount it increases/decreases is always linear.

    Once you start doing your calculations based on Intellect though all that goes out the window, because Intellect grants Crit.

    The healing benefit via Spellpower from Intellect increases linearly. The amount of healing provided from Crits can be averaged out. But, and this is a big one: Crits for Discipline do not actually heal for more (.. excluding external factors). They apply an absorb via Divine Aegis. This is where things stop being linear and simple to model. Divine Aegis caps at 60% of a players health, lasts 15 seconds, can be refreshed, and stacks with itself.

    Here's an example of why I think making a distinction between Intellect and Spellpower is important:
    If a player is at 25% health with a fully capped Divine Aegis on them that is about to expire, you Flash Heal them and it crits how do you quantify the value of the fact that it crit? Completely ignoring the crit component granted by Intellect makes for a very mediocre overhealing model as crits can bring value that isn't immediately obvious just from looking at raw output. That Divine Aegis could make the difference between a player living or dying within the next GCD. In the short term it might look like the Crit component of that Flash Heal was 100% overheal but realistically it actually most likely reduced total overhealing over the course of the fight.

    >"This is why I am ignoring it, an extra thing to calculate that only changes things by +/- 15% or so."
    I'm fully aware that the amount of Crit you gain from Intellect is small. That's not the point, you're completely ignoring the interaction Crit has with overhealing for Disc Priests and yet at the same time you're trying to model overhealing. There's a huge disconnect between what actually happens in-game and what you're trying to model, which is something you should strive to avoid when theorycrafting and not actively seek out just to prove a point.

    I'm not actually sure if the multistrike/cleave trinkets can proc Divine Aegis or not, but let's give them the benefit of the doubt though and assume that they can and all they have to do is crit.
    Even in this scenario they are severely devalued for Disc:
    A) The multistrike/cleave has a much greater chance of being pure overheal than the initial heal simply because another large direct heal just went out in order to trigger their procs in the first place.
    B) Even if the multistrike/cleave procs do Crit and trigger DA there's a pretty decent chance that at least a portion of the Divine Aegis they would apply would push the existing DA over the 60% cap which means even more overhealing.
    C) Even if the multistrike/cleave procs do Crit and trigger DA and none of this is overhealing they're still devalued simply because with the amount of Crit Disc Priests run with the DA that got refreshed by the cleave/multistrike proc was probably already at or near full duration already.

    Barring extreme niche situations I'm fairly confident the cleave/multistrike trinkets are total garbage for Disc simply because they don't interact with our toolkit well. You'll pretty much be 100% dependant on Legendary cloak procs to make their overhealing actually useful.

    The point I was trying to make with the last post I made that you responded to Havoc12:
    If you want your comparisons "Y Intellect is equivalent to X% Healing Increase at Z iLvl" to be taken seriously either factor in the crit component of Intellect and don't just pretend it isn't there, do your comparisons as "Y Spellpower is equivalent to X% Healing Increase at Z iLvl" or accept the fact that your information is considerably less useful for Disc Priests because you've chosen to ignore something utterly integral to the spec.

    I feel like I'm just repeating things that have already been said a dozen times at this point, bleh.
    Last edited by Lothrik; 2013-08-31 at 04:07 PM.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Lothrik View Post
    .
    Spellpower increases the amount of healing done linearly, that's just what Spellpower does. It does more or less for certain spells and the relative benefit at different item levels varies but the amount it increases/decreases is always linear.

    I feel like I'm just repeating things that have already been said a dozen times at this point, bleh.
    Spellpower adds a constant amount yes, but that does not tell you how the diminishing returns work on it, because spells have a constant base value to which spellpower adds. You though that going from 520 to 580 ilvl was going to half the value of intellect. I showed you that its not even reduced by 50%. Converting spellpower to % healing cannot be done intuitively. The formula I posted properly returns the % value of additional spellpower based on the spellpower you already have.

    I really don't understand why you bothered to write a whole paragraph to nitpick on something trivial. Using spellpower as the conversion for % healing is pointless, because it is not directly comparable to intellect. The only viable comparison is to convert to intellect. You can choose to ignore crit to simplify the calculation, for small values of intellect, with acceptable losses in accuracy.

    You have written a ton of qualitative arguments, which are pretty much meaningless, but haven't bothered to spend 2 minutes adding crit in to see just how much of a difference it makes. It is absolutely trivial to factor crit in and also pointless since it doesn't change the conclusions. Refresh and overcapping for aegis are trivial as can be seen from any disc log.

    What makes it even more pointless, is that the amp trinket is by far the best trinket for disc. It is better than any other T16 and T15 trinket, since the crit healing boost (assuming it is fixed to match the tooltip value) represents an effective 7% boost to crit rate for aegis creation and also adds 7% of your crit rate as a healing bonus.

    You don't know how the multistrike and cleave trinkets will work unless you see the damage pattern. What we care is what % of your healing they are on the logs. If they don't proc off absorbs though it is certain that they are not suitable for disc. If they do proc off absorbs then they will be better for throughput than any T16 regen trinket and all T15 trinkets, even if flat intellect trinkets add some crit. Your confidence is based on qualitative arguments and does not have a solid basis.

    It is highly likely that disc will mostly run with the amp trinket and one of the T16 regen trinkets, but if people want to run two throughput trinkets, then cleave or multistrike will be the best option if they work off absorbs. If they don't work off absorbs then two throughput trinkets for disc won't be viable.
    Last edited by Havoc12; 2013-09-01 at 12:06 AM.

  9. #89
    Ok I had a look at the trinkets again last night during LFR testing. The multistrike trinket is exactly 4.3% of raw HPS for holy as predicted. Mileage does vary based on overheal though. The cleave trinket has no discrernible spell on in-game logs. I don't see any healing spell called cleave or anything like that on Skada. I am going to save the actual logs and look at them. To search for it.

  10. #90
    Pit Lord HeatherRae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havoc12 View Post
    Ok I had a look at the trinkets again last night during LFR testing. The multistrike trinket is exactly 4.3% of raw HPS for holy as predicted. Mileage does vary based on overheal though. The cleave trinket has no discrernible spell on in-game logs. I don't see any healing spell called cleave or anything like that on Skada. I am going to save the actual logs and look at them. To search for it.
    It was showing up as Cleave for me the last time I used it. Possible that they changed the spell id/spell name, tho.
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  11. #91
    Hmmm, it seems I neglected the fact that the proc rate changes depending on ilvl. It shouldn't be 4.3% of raw healing on LFR. I think multistrike might not be behaving as expected.

  12. #92
    High Overlord Zolvolt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havoc12 View Post
    Hmmm, it seems I neglected the fact that the proc rate changes depending on ilvl. It shouldn't be 4.3% of raw healing on LFR. I think multistrike might not be behaving as expected.
    If it is working as intended then it would be even better than expected

    #Hopeful
    Last edited by Zolvolt; 2013-09-02 at 08:02 PM.

  13. #93
    Can you activate 2 "on use" trinkets at the same time?

    I have the +30k mana on use shadowpan trinket, and I'd also like to wear the + spirit or whatever the burning ember trinket is for dat massive mana regen.


    Oh it only gives 8k spirit(4k mana/5 for 15 seconds). Worthless nevermind.
    Last edited by Fluttershy; 2013-09-03 at 07:59 AM.

  14. #94
    Stood in the Fire espoire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluttershy View Post
    Can you activate 2 "on use" trinkets at the same time?
    Rule of thumb is, if they give different stats with their buff, then yes. Otherwise, one gives the other a 30sec CD. (Which means you could still use them together, just not blast them both at the same time.)

    In this case, it's safe to assume they can be freely used together.

  15. #95
    This is odd I am looked through the log and on recount and on skada and after a whole night of PTR testing there is not a single mention of a heal named Cleave.....

    I need to find somewhere to test if the thing is actually procing.

    Edit: Others are reporting the same thing. Something wrong with the trinket probably.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    Thok's has been changed to be similar to Tarecgosa in that the proc actually counts as the same heal it procced from.
    This is why you don't see cleave any more
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  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    This is why you don't see cleave any more
    Thanks! It should be possible to figure out the number of procs by using the WoL expression editor then. Anyone has any log where they used the cleave trinket?

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    From Thok's though it has been changed to be similar to Tarecgosa in that the proc actually counts as the same heal it procced from.
    Only the same name not the same spell unfortunately, which makes it useless for anything working on secondary procs line atonement. Wonder if this is the same for this trinket.

  19. #99
    High Overlord Zolvolt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noradin View Post
    Only the same name not the same spell unfortunately, which makes it useless for anything working on secondary procs line atonement. Wonder if this is the same for this trinket.
    gdi Blizzard, making us have to do work =P

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Zolvolt View Post
    gdi Blizzard, making us have to do work =P
    Lol I think its good, they're putting the feeling of discovery and exploration back into the game as promised.

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