Bring the player, not the class...

[kilj]

Wasn't blizzard saying this back in the day.... Now it seems if you don't have a certain class a fight is almost impossible....

Durumuu heroic... No ele shams locks
Horridon heroic... Oh no decursers
Council heroic... Practically screams a must for fire Mage and rogue to smoke cheese frostbite..
Heroic iron qon... Oh no lock or Druid gl on tornados

[Restors]

I always were for bring the player AND the class

[Trubo]

There's a difference between having a class making things easy and having a class to actually kill content. All of your examples but Horridon fall into the first category.

[cyqu]

Wasn't blizzard saying this back in the day.... Now it seems if you don't have a certain class a fight is almost impossible....

Durumuu heroic... No ele shams locks
Horridon heroic... Oh no decursers
Council heroic... Practically screams a must for fire Mage and rogue to smoke cheese frostbite..
Heroic iron qon... Oh no lock or Druid gl on tornados

dont need an ele shaman or lock.
kind of meh if you cant decruse
you in no way need a mage or rogue
l2 dodge tornados

if you bring all skilled players you can completely forget about these problems

but that's not to say it wouldn't be easier with said classes.

[Deleted]

So you have no mage/druid/rogue/shaman/warlock in your raid? I'm sorry but your raid comp seems rather stupid.

[Cirque]

Bring player not class refers to the Sunwell shit of, just to name one, stacking shamans.

All encounters are totally doable if your raiders have a brain without specific classes. This was not the case in aforementioned example. That said, cutting-edge heroic raiders are doing content way below the required gearlevel. Naturally they'll want to use any advantage possible, such as warlocks and death knights on lei shen.

[Lubricious]

Bring the player and not the class was not only something Blizzard said they wanted to happen for raid content, but said DOES happen for raid content. However then, as now, they failed to recognize that the more your guild values progression, the more likely they are to bench someone who is good at their class in order to make the fight easier overall.

Of course you can complete all the encounters without a specific class being present. That doesn't mean it isn't easier to have certain raid compositions, and it doesn't mean that some guilds/raid groups won't bring someone else to an encounter just because it makes getting a kill a little easier. Naturally this is more likely in the heroic raids, but even then it's not exclusive.

You can claim that the raid groups in question are bads, fail, or whatever else you like for altering their composition just to get an easier kill, but that won't change the fact that someone on the raid team got benched just for being the wrong class. Which when it happens, is most unfortunate.

That's actually the reason I run so few heroic raids these days. I got sick of people valuing their epeens in server progression over their guildmates.

[Deja Thoris]

You forgot heroic lei shen.

It's a bastard with f.ex a warrior instead of a rogue, an ele shammy instead of a mage and so on.

[Holymoocow]

Bring the player and not the class was not only something Blizzard said they wanted to happen for raid content, but said DOES happen for raid content. However then, as now, they failed to recognize that the more your guild values progression, the more likely they are to bench someone who is good at their class in order to make the fight easier overall.

Of course you can complete all the encounters without a specific class being present. That doesn't mean it isn't easier to have certain raid compositions, and it doesn't mean that some guilds/raid groups won't bring someone else to an encounter just because it makes getting a kill a little easier. Naturally this is more likely in the heroic raids, but even then it's not exclusive.

You can claim that the raid groups in question are bads, fail, or whatever else you like for altering their composition just to get an easier kill, but that won't change the fact that someone on the raid team got benched just for being the wrong class. Which when it happens, is most unfortunate.

That's actually the reason I run so few heroic raids these days. I got sick of people valuing their epeens in server progression over their guildmates.

i do agree with you on this, becease i had happen before way to many times in past even just for normal ver raid. heroic raid tend be more about hardcore epeen type of folks truthfuly.Had monk on my server think the can solo mop H 5 man becease the do heroic raids, the is biggest ego in world!

[Deleted]

you need none of those classes for any of the fights you said ?_?

[Woobels]

The only fight I would argue you NEED a certain class for is Lei Shen 25HC with DKs.
I bet someone will argue it's possible without them but it's not worth the trouble imo.

[Seriss]

Wasn't blizzard saying this back in the day.... Now it seems if you don't have a certain class a fight is almost impossible....

Durumuu heroic... No ele shams locks
Horridon heroic... Oh no decursers
Council heroic... Practically screams a must for fire Mage and rogue to smoke cheese frostbite..
Heroic iron qon... Oh no lock or Druid gl on tornados

Your examples are kind of weaklish.

Durumu, we did with one warlock and a melee-heavy setup because I can't play ele well enough for progression for the life of me (you're better off just letting me play resto, even if an encounter is unfavourable to resto shaman, because I know what I'm doing) and we only had a limited number of ranged dps available that day.
Horridon's curses - you mean you call a raid that has no shaman of any spec, no mage of any spec and no druid of any spec a balanced raid? Which class are you stacking that you can't fit in any of those? You're making a hunter a required class for your line-up, do you realise? Or you'll have to play without heroism/bloodlust.
Council... got no rogue. Got a mage though... every raid should have a mage. They're cool. They bring crit. We tend to have difficulties getting other sources of crit into the line-up. Bringing a mage only because of combustion or because you're waiting for the one lucky try where the mage gets all the frostbites and blocks them is silly. You might as well bring half a raid full of paladins or something silly like that.
Iron Qon - move? dodge? Practising in LFR helps. Many classes have their own means to speed up their movement through the tornados. It's more difficult for some classes, but you can still have your holy paladin bubble and hurry out of there to quickly start healing people up again, etc.

Now if you mentioned Lei Shen's Helm of Command that some classes have real difficulties with when they don't have a lock's gateway, I'd say you have a point. But then again, Blizz said that not everyone was supposed to kill Lei Shen, so I guess requiring of you to fiddle with your line-up a bit and see what you can do to optimise it should be something that's expected for what Blizz designed to be the hardest boss fight of the tier that not everyone and their mother should get to kill.

None of the encounters in ToT requires that you stack 3-4 <insert random class here>s. That's what Blizz is getting at with "Bring the player...". Though, to be fair, in 10-man, there's still the problem that something like a disc priest renders the one or the other boss ability obsolete. Still, you're not seeing everyone going "We need 2-3 disc priests for our raids and no other healer". That's because one disc is usually enough and is better complemented by another healing class than a copy of it. The line-up in a 10-man raid needs to consist of classes and specs that complement each other. Then it'll be a balanced line-up that can handle things nicely. Of course, you could still build perfect line-ups for every boss, but most of us don't have the amount of people and/or geared alts to actually do that. Most of us aren't world top 50 or something like that. We can afford to bring a melee more where a top guild would perhaps have them log onto their warlock alt and GG.

[Terridon]

i do agree with you on this, becease i had happen before way to many times in past even just for normal ver raid. heroic raid tend be more about hardcore epeen type of folks truthfuly.Had monk on my server think the can solo mop H 5 man becease the do heroic raids, the is biggest ego in world!

Eh. You can do that long before HC gear, so sounds like he's a bit clueless :P

Afaik it has only applied for normal mode, and not HC mode, that you could bring whatever you wanted.
Some of the fights are just easier, but far from needed, with different classes. Iron qon you really should just learn to dodge cyclones.
Hard to make interresting new things in encounters that isn't just easier with specific classes.
And really. There's always need for a mage/shammy. Corehound is slow with it's 6 mins cd. At least to drums of battles are coming.

[Boneyards]

Wasn't blizzard saying this back in the day.... Now it seems if you don't have a certain class a fight is almost impossible....

Durumuu heroic... No ele shams locks
Horridon heroic... Oh no decursers
Council heroic... Practically screams a must for fire Mage and rogue to smoke cheese frostbite..
Heroic iron qon... Oh no lock or Druid gl on tornados

Dodging tornadoes isn't hard, unless you have a bad internet connection. Council heroic doesn't require a rogue or mage to cheese FB, just good group communication. Heroic Horridon, it's almost guaranteed that SOMEONE in your group can decurse. Durumu is tough, but plenty of people have killed him without one. It may not be ideal, but it's doable.

[Inthislzon]

Wasn't blizzard saying this back in the day.... Now it seems if you don't have a certain class a fight is almost impossible....

Durumuu heroic... No ele shams locks
Horridon heroic... Oh no decursers
Council heroic... Practically screams a must for fire Mage and rogue to smoke cheese frostbite..
Heroic iron qon... Oh no lock or Druid gl on tornados

The only one that somewhat holds true is decurse on horridon heroic.

Durumu? Done without shamans/locks. No issue
Council? While helpful, cheesing frostbite is not required, also bops nullify it too.
Qon? Dodging tornados is NOT hard.

And on horridon, there are 34 specs in the game (3 specs each class, 11 classes, one extra for druids) Out of those 34, 10 of them can decurse. So (assuming equal representation of every spec) about 30% of the players can decurse without changing his main spec.

Given you have 10 players at minimum you have a (1-0.3)^10 chance of not a single one of them being able to decurse. That's near 3%.

Yes, bring the player not the class IS working. Sure, there will be encounters that benefit one particular class, but none are mandatory.

[Rucati]

Durumuu heroic... No ele shams locks
Horridon heroic... Oh no decursers
Council heroic... Practically screams a must for fire Mage and rogue to smoke cheese frostbite..
Heroic iron qon... Oh no lock or Druid gl on tornados

No idea why you think you need ele shams or locks on Durumu.
Not having a decurse is rough, but a lot of classes can Decurse. So bring the player not the class doesn't mean stack all one class, if you run with 10 Warriors you're gonna have a problem.
Not sure why you think you need to cheese mechanics to kill bosses, can be done without.
You could just learn to you know, not get hit by tornadoes? It really isn't hard, they go in the same pattern every time and they're really easy to avoid.

Don't really see your point, basically you're saying that you need certain classes to cheese mechanics and kill bosses the easiest way possible, but you don't need them to kill the boss.

[Deleted]

Wasn't blizzard saying this back in the day.... Now it seems if you don't have a certain class a fight is almost impossible....

Durumuu heroic... No ele shams locks
Horridon heroic... Oh no decursers
Council heroic... Practically screams a must for fire Mage and rogue to smoke cheese frostbite..
Heroic iron qon... Oh no lock or Druid gl on tornados

it is indeed as some1 else here mentioned "easier" with these classes, not impossible without...hence u don't seem to follow your own logic, since what u imply is redundant if u indeed bring the player...and not the class :P

[aGit]

Wasn't blizzard saying this back in the day.... Now it seems if you don't have a certain class a fight is almost impossible....

Durumuu heroic... No ele shams locks
Horridon heroic... Oh no decursers
Council heroic... Practically screams a must for fire Mage and rogue to smoke cheese frostbite..
Heroic iron qon... Oh no lock or Druid gl on tornados

i don't think bring the player, not the class applied to heroic raiding. At least that's how o interpreted it.

[kilj]

I was under the impression that only mages druids and shamans can dispell.... sadly we do not run a mage, our druid is guardian so he can never dispell, and our shaman does dispell. But half the time he gets overburdened with the cd to people gaining curses lol

[Inthislzon]

I was under the impression that only mages druids and shamans can dispell.... sadly we do not run a mage, our druid is guardian so he can never dispell, and our shaman does dispell. But half the time he gets overburdened with the cd to people gaining curses lol

Have him tank horridon on 4th door. In a double swipe/charge you can easily decurse and swap back to bear form.