LFR -> Flex -> Normal -> Heroic: Why?

[The Kao]

LFR -> Flex -> Normal -> Heroic: Why?

Because the developers know that raiding is endgame and they want a version of that for people that know how to press buttons and people that do not even know how to operate a keyboard.

In fact this is only a side effect of what they are really doing. Which is, stretching the little content they create to so many applications that the player feels he's given a huge chunk of content, or that Blizzard actually cares about his prefered gaming style. If that was really the case we would see multiple new raids, dungeons, scenarios, world events, etc. with each patch, at least that should be expected considering all the monetary and labor forces Blizzard compiles compared to other developers. Makes you wonder what they actually do all day.

[Barcasaur]

Not to derail, but it won't. WildStar has this idea that they are the saving grace of MMOs and what the community really needs is a return to Vanilla/TBC-style of "raiding isn't for everyone". Their devs have said as much, and IMO show that they are totally clueless about how MMOs ought to work in 2013. This isn't 1999 or 2004.

I probably should not have even added that part, its what I and there is still an audience for that if its not something you want continue to log on and do your LFRs and pass by Wildstar.

for you to say how a genre of a game should work is a pretty steep/ignorant claim.

Carbine is focusing on other aspects of the game to make it more then worth it for people that don't raid too! just like all the people that played in vanilla/tbc that did not raid and had fun.

[Deleted]

You might not be able to find a pug on every server, but that's not really because of the difficulty of the content.

Why not? If tot was as easy as mogushan palace it'd be pugged coninuously. Difficulty must have something to do with it.

I've pugged it a bunch of times on random characters just because I'm bored and see people spamming in trade for people, and it's definitely widely done and not really that hard. There's a big issue with realm populations of course and there's a fix in the works for that, at least potentially. Unrelated but definitely an important issue.

You clearing tot on alts isn't the same as tot being genuinely puggable though, you already know the fights.

I do agree that some people have given up but "stuck on Horridon" has almost become a meme without substance. I'd challenge anyone to find me a guild that is in fact stuck on Horridon, and still raids.

Self proving thesis, that one. If guilds gave up on horridon, or earlier on garalon, it's likey they ceased to exist entirely. Hard to prove negatives. Someone on here did go through the attrition rate, and it is horrendous, iirc garalon killed 17% of all raiding guilds.

People try and give up because they don't care for raiding, not because the content is hugely overtuned, and there's nothing anyone can do about that. If you make the content mind-numbingly easy those people will clear it and still stop raiding because raiding isn't their thing, and the people who do like raiding but aren't in heroic-level guilds will have nothing to do.

We are talking about people who did raid previously, failed at t14 then stopped. Then theres a rump of people who made it through T14 (somehow) who got to horridon and packed it in there. The desire is present, the difficulty doesn't allow the desire to be followed up on. Blizzard acknowledges this - hence flexi.

Flex is a perfectly reasonable idea and might help some guilds out when an issue like this comes up again but basically you have to look at Horridon as an aberration. It was mildly overtuned for its place in the zone, and was nerfed a few weeks after release. That's going to happen from time to time. Anyone who walked in there, pulled it a dozen times and said "fuck this raiding thing" wasn't going to stick with the content anyway.

Took my guys 80 wipes the first week and they are happy to do the whole wiping thing (we were undergeared and pushed our luck.) it was more or less impossible for anyone not draped in HC gear from the previous tier, a complete train wreck of a fight. yes, they fixed it, but I can easily see how a burnt out guild from t14 who got to horridon and got nowhere just gave up entirely.

Question is, why can't you?

The one mistake Blizzard made that I think they should correct is trying to make the gear requirements of the zone a bit clearer. Honestly, having some sort of minimum ilvl attunement or just a warning that says "YOU ARE UNDERGEARED FOR THIS CONTENT" or something might have helped, because I really think a core part of the problem was just that. The gap between the release of the expansion and the release of ToT was pretty short. A lot of people raiding casually just hadn't finished t14, or had stopped trying at some point and were doing other things. The new tier came out and a lot of those players expected to walk in and just stomp the new bosses as easily as they could stomp Stone Guard and Feng, but they were tuned for around 500 ilvl or so. You need to farm the last tier's normals and take advantage of gear upgrades and the new VP gear to get that. If you'd just made everyone have 500 ilvl before they did the content I doubt there would have been anywhere near as many guilds that hit the "wall" and gave up, and at the same time I think a lot of those guilds that did give up on Horridon would have farmed their way to 500 ilvl so they could see what normal mode was like, and had a better time with the content after doing so.

How is this saying anything other than the raids are overtuned (for their audience)? It doesn't really matter why they are overtuned, only that the discussion starts honestly with the bare facts - recent raids have been and still are overtuned.

I don't think a lack of gear catchup was at fault either, ToT released with 522 ilvl VP gear and 502 gear in LFR. There were plenty of chances to catch up if you hadn't been farming t14 normals, you just couldn't walk in and clear the zone.

You needed 500 ilvl + to clear the first part of tot (getting pat horridon, mostly) on normal and only HC guilds from the previous tier would have that.

but again, all you are saying is that it was overtuned on launch. Why can't we start with that, then talk about the whys and wherefores?

The existence of 40 people per day on a server with 20k players on it having a go at pugging a raid is hardly evidence for it's being easymode.

[Deleted]

You needed 500 ilvl + to clear the first part of tot (getting pat horridon, mostly) on normal and only HC guilds from the previous tier would have that.

but again, all you are saying is that it was overtuned on launch. Why can't we start with that, then talk about the whys and wherefores?

No you didn't. Our raid had an average ilvl of 490 or so max, and cleared tot in 2 weeks. Our 2 healers were below 480. (megaera is literally the only boss thats VERY tough [and perhaps undoable] without gear)

Edit: I don't get what the problem with horridon was. Literally zero damage went out if you executed it properly, and you could get down the adds before the next big ones came.

[Deleted]

No you didn't. Our raid had an average ilvl of 490 or so max, and cleared tot in 2 weeks. Our 2 healers were below 480. (megaera is literally the only boss thats VERY tough [and perhaps undoable] without gear)

Grats! You were one of the 40 people who beat horridon the first week with less than 500 ilvl. (I've met all 200 of them on this forum when having these discussion.)

[Deleted]

Grats! You were one of the 40 people who beat horridon the first week with less than 500 ilvl. (I've met all 200 of them on this forum when having these discussion.)

I'm sharing our experiences as a raid. If you want to be taken seriously I'd suggest not resorting to baseless ad hominem.

Honestly, bar megaera it wasn't that tough.

[Deleted]

Yeah but you are on a high pop server wheich people move to specifically to get progression. There are a few realms like that and then a vast array of realms with like 2-3k people on them (realms where you are lucky to get see heroic kills at all from guilds, in some cases.)

Flexi and server merging has great hope within it.

Yeah, but the issue here is clearly dead realms, not the content. For example finding a pug

Why not? If tot was as easy as mogushan palace it'd be pugged coninuously. Difficulty must have something to do with it.

You not being able to find pugs is obviously a result of your server being dead as finding pugs on a populated realm is 0 issue.

- - - Updated - - -

You clearing tot on alts isn't the same as tot being genuinely puggable though, you already know the fights.

Yes, it is. A PuG does not mean incline that nobody in the group knows the tactic. A PuG is not progressing through the content. In the usual pug about 70-100% of the group knows the fight and has done them before, the other 0-30% either have done a few fights or atleast knows the basic strategies for them. At no point in the history of WoW did pugs cosist of a full group not knowing the boss fights.

[Deleted]

I'm sharing our experiences as a raid. If you want to be taken seriously I'd suggest not resorting to baseless ad hominem.

Honestly, bar megaera it wasn't that tough.

Only 4 guilds got past horridon the first week with less than 500 ilvl. I know, me and the guildies checked at the time. That means if you did it, you were one of 40 people. Good job.

The plural of anecdote is not data.

[Fluorescent0]

Keep in mind that those 4 guilds were below 500 itemlevel to begin with. Either very unlucky with drops or just not really great in progression to begin with and therefore not really awesome.

[Deleted]

Yeah, but the issue here is clearly dead realms, not the content. For example finding a pug

if loads of the realms are dead and the content can't be pugged, that's an issue at blizzards end, either with the realms or with the content. So, it's overtuned.

You not being able to find pugs is obviously a result of your server being dead as finding pugs on a populated realm is 0 issue.

40 people a day ouy of 20k isn't an indicator of easy content.

Yes, it is. A PuG does not mean incline that nobody in the group knows the tactic. A PuG is not progressing through the content. In the usual pug about 70-100% of the group knows the fight and has done them before, the other 0-30% either have done a few fights or atleast knows the basic strategies for them. At no point in the history of WoW did pugs cosist of a full group not knowing the boss fights.

Then why do you bring up the fact that tot can be pugged as proof it's easy? lol

[Deleted]

Grats! You were one of the 40 people who beat horridon the first week with less than 500 ilvl. (I've met all 200 of them on this forum when having these discussion.)

Where do you get these numbers? I have no clue, my guild second raid team beat it with 499 ilvl.

Just on my realm I can find about 15-20 guilds that did Horridon in the first weak with below 500 ilvl. And another 5-10 gulds that did it with 500-503 ilvl. Actually, checking horridon kills on the first 2 weeks on my realm, a large majority was done with below 500 ilvl.

- - - Updated - - -

40 people a day ouy of 20k isn't an indicator of easy content.

40 people at a given time, not during an entire day. Probably 100-150 people on a regular day and more on the peak days.

Then why do you bring up the fact that tot can be pugged as proof it's easy? lol

Because pugs are non organised groups, often not using VOIP, people are not used to playing with eachother, often have undergeared people and is often carrying people. If pugs can clear the instance without issue, then an organised group should have no issue doing so.

[Deleted]

Where do you get these numbers? I have no clue, my guild second raid team beat it with 499 ilvl.

Just on my realm I can find about 15-20 guilds that did Horridon in the first weak with below 500 ilvl. And another 5-10 gulds that did it with 500-503 ilvl. Actually, checking horridon kills on the first 2 weeks on my realm, a large majority was done with below 500 ilvl.

Got a link? happy to be proven wrong on this, it might be my aging memory playing tricks on me,

40 people at a given time, not during an entire day. Probably 100-150 people on a regular day and more on the peak days.

it's still nothing. 150 people out of 20k. (and we both know those are often the same guys on alts.)

Because pugs are non organised groups, often not using VOIP, people are not used to playing with eachother, often have undergeared people and is often carrying people. If pugs can clear the instance without issue, then an organised group should have no issue doing so.

And yet, they can't.

I understand your playing experience and realm is different than mine, so it's probably best to go to the numbers. If we do that, shits overtuned for the playerbase.

[Deleted]

if loads of the realms are dead and the content can't be pugged, that's an issue at blizzards end, either with the realms or with the content. So, it's overtuned.

How do you reach the conclusion that it is overtuned? That seems fairly illogical. If it was overtuned you would not be able to pug it on populated realms. The fact that not being able to pug ToT is only an issue on dead realms, seems to indicate that the issue is with the size of the realm population, not with the content in itself.

If I would set up an arena team on my old server I would have a terrible time finding even players for a 3v3 team. That is not an issue with arenas being overtuned, that is matter that the horde side of that server is completely dead and there is simply noone to form that arena team with.

[Dolus]

I actually love the idea of a "Flex" type approach. I think everyone who's been in a guild has experienced "no shows." This sort of addresses that situation. I do see Blizzard aiming to make Flex raiding a more prominent feature over time. Let's say flex raiding... say less than 10 ppl... 8 or 9 ppl... scaling to the same rewards, but same relative difficulty as a Normal 10... and the same for flex raiding with 23 people scaling and receiving the same rewards as a Normal 25. It would require a hell of a lot of tuning in regard to appropriate difficulty. But, I could see it happening.

[Sierra85]

Virtual Realms / Connected Realms will hopefully solve the issue of dead servers.

[XtremeC0der]

Let's just rename the different difficulties but keep everything otherwise the same...


Flex -> Normal
Normal -> Heroic
Heroic -> Elite

"normal" should have flex and be easier? check. current "normal" is too hard for most people? fixed.

Every time this is brought up it's an argument over semantics IMO. The current iteration of Flex is what players that fine Normal too difficult say they want Normal to be. Easier and Flex. I don't see the problem?

[felcommander]

If ur an Heroic raider why would u do LFR and Flex?? (except maybe for alts)

As a heroic raider flex gear is actually a higher ilvl than this tiers non TF heroic gear, meaning that as long as we still have non TF heroic pieces we're going to have to do our progression raiding and pug a flex every week, its pretty nauseating. Not to mention occasionally go into lfr for odd pieces like that OP trinket or that last piece of tier gear for your 4p bonus.

[ItachiZaku]

Does anybody seriously enjoy killing the same damn boss 100+ times per tier?

Doesn't matter if it is 2 times or 1 million times, anymore more than once is... why bother?

[Fluorescent0]

Got a link? happy to be proven wrong on this, it might be my aging memory playing tricks on me,

List of guilds that did Horridon on the first three hours of the US patch day below 505 itemlevel (couldn't be assled to search the whole week because it's a fucking pain without a search function):
http://www.wowprogress.com/guild/us/mug-thol/Adamant
http://www.wowprogress.com/guild/us/...hogany+for+Men
http://www.wowprogress.com/guild/us/stormreaver/Tempest
http://www.wowprogress.com/guild/us/gilneas/Storm
http://www.wowprogress.com/guild/us/...ing/P%C3%BAlse
http://www.wowprogress.com/guild/us/...ragonflight/FH
http://www.wowprogress.com/guild/us/...raphic+Content
http://www.wowprogress.com/guild/us/firetree/ONE
http://www.wowprogress.com/guild/us/...y+Not+Zoidberg
http://www.wowprogress.com/guild/us/argent-dawn/GRIZZLY
http://www.wowprogress.com/guild/us/...ow/NPH+FanClub
http://www.wowprogress.com/guild/us/...Chain+Reaction
http://www.wowprogress.com/guild/us/...uid+Adrenaline
http://www.wowprogress.com/guild/us/korgath/Insomniac

[Grimble]

Lets take away LFR, Herioc, and the apply the hardware side of FLEX to "Normal" which should just be raiding, and raiding is HARD, it makes you better, it lets content last longer and you fix a ton of shit by doing this.

I love posts like this. I shine my welfare epics with the tears of the overthrown poopsock aristocracy.

Keep shitting up every WoW forum on the planet, guys. I bet Blizzard is dying to remove LFR and go back to making raids only 2% of the playerbase ever enters. They just need a few more haggard raider types to run onto the Blizz forums over there and make "nerf LFR" threads that get instantly downvoted.

Be sure you make reference to how subscriptions have gone down. Feebly attempt to imply that this is because your tiny irrelevant community isn't being catered to sufficiently. Maybe say some laughable shit about how casual players supposedly all looked up to and admired you during BC and kept their accounts paid up because they aspired to be like you.

That'll show 'em.