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  1. #721
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Let's table that patronizing arrogant BS behind this statement for a bit and ask ourselves what exactly is NORMAL meant to mean? NORMAL in a game like starcraft for example is so blindingly easy that you get your hand held for almost half the experience. NORMAL is obviously a relative measure to what the population can and can't do. If the population is made up of people who can't aquire the skill or won't acquire the skill then it really becomes a question of why do we bother making this content in the first place when theirs apparently so few people who want to actually do it.
    That's what LFR and now flex are for. Don't put so much meaning into the word normal.

    It's definitely fair for Blizzard to expect people that want to down a raid in normal to know each and every ability of their class. All it takes is minimal research and reading. After that you research the optimal rotation for your class and you're good to go. Addons help performance as well.

    If a player doesn't want to put any research into their class and strive to become better, then they certainly don't belong in normal mode and are better suited for flex/LFR.

    We've all been there. I remember back in cata when I started playing my Paladin, my numbers where abysmal because I refused to use Inquisition as I thought losing 1 Templars Verdict was too much. I was holding my group down and prevented them from getting bosses down so I stepped out. After a few hours of research I was the top DPS when I returned.
    Last edited by Richardbro; 2013-09-07 at 09:44 PM.

  2. #722
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Read me edit. The developers are as clue less as you. They're on the same god damn high horse.
    Take as reference a great college and an average one. A normal student of the former could be a great student in the second one. Does that make the first college snob? Do you think there's a reason for this?

    On the same line of thought, why is setting a standard high classified being clueless?
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  3. #723
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richardbro View Post
    That's what LFR and now flex are for. Don't put so much meaning into the word normal.

    It's definitely
    Then they ought to change the naming conventions. Basically flex is the new normal. Which I'm fine with.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  4. #724
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Wtf is touhou?

    - - - Updated - - -



    Read my edit. The developers are as clue less as you. They're on the same god damn high horse. Instead of letting what the figures show normal should be at they've instead insisted to be game snobs. When they get fired, pink slipped, or moved on to other projects I"m sure the comfort of the forums warriors who defended them in their time of hubris will bring them comfort.
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  5. #725
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluorescent0 View Post
    Take as reference a great college and an average one. A normal student of the former could be a great student in the second one. Does that make the first college snob? Do you think there's a reason for this?

    On the same line of thought, why is setting a standard high classified being clueless?
    Because they have no clue what their players are after or capable or willing to put into if they think current normals are for well average players. If their goal is to make money and have broad appeal then yes they are fucking clueless. If their goal is to appease forum warriors who defend the difficulty of the game then they are bang on the money. The "high standard" shuts people out and well if your goal is to make money with broad appeal then yea shutting people out doesn't work. They want raiding to have broad appeal well now you have that all those difficulties but calling everything else below normal not normal is a pretty big insult.

    Blizzard entertainment is not giving me an education. I am paying them to be entertained. They are not "teaching me" nor am I beholden to them for anything. I do not need them to set the standard for me as they are not some accredited institution to which I need to get a degree in. They are (or should be) concerned with keeping me as a subscriber whereas the college has a credibility to sustain if it wants people to take their degrees and diplomas seriously. Blizzard has ZERO POINT ZERO reason to set the standard as you have used in your definition of the word normal. The college obviously does for any number of reasons. That is a very poor and lame example I'm afraid.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-09-07 at 09:39 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  6. #726
    Quote Originally Posted by mistahwilshire View Post
    Never understood why people complain about more options. Whatever.
    It's pretty hard to grasp, I know.

  7. #727
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Because they have no clue what their players are after or capable or willing to put into if they think current normals are for well average players. If their goal is to make money and have broad appeal then yes they are fucking clueless. If their goal is to appease forum warriors who defend the difficulty of the game then they are bang on the money. The "high standard" shuts people out and well if your goal is to make money with broad appeal then yea shutting people out doesn't work. They want raiding to have broad appeal well now you have that all those difficulties but calling everything else below normal not normal is a pretty big insult.

    Blizzard entertainment is not giving me an education. I am paying them to be entertained. They are not "teaching me" nor am I beholden to them for anything.
    They have a broad appeal, it's called Flex and LFR. The problem here is that you aren't happy and want more without doing anything more than you already are. How is it an insult if you're effectively not raiding normal modes? That's below the standard they set, and a name shouldn't really affect you in the slightest unless you have serious self-esteem issues.
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  8. #728
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Then they ought to change the naming conventions. Basically flex is the new normal. Which I'm fine with.
    I agree, the word normal doesn't make sense given the high difficulty.

  9. #729
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluorescent0 View Post
    They have a broad appeal, it's called Flex and LFR. The problem here is that you aren't happy and want more without doing anything more than you already are. How is it an insult if you're effectively not raiding normal modes? That's below the standard they set, and a name shouldn't really affect you in the slightest unless you have serious self-esteem issues.
    Yes people wan't more. This is obvious now it behooves the developers to either provide them with more or expect they will leave. Now for you people leaving is all well and good but for the developers well ultimately no that's not good. It may be that they can't stop everyone from leaving but they should recognize (At least I hope they do for their sakes) that lots of people will either stay or come back if more is offered to them instead of less being offered to them so that others (tiny minorities really) will have.

    I mean ultimately I don't agree that's the problem but even if it is that should come as no surprise to you. The PROBLEM is that their is no alternative to raiding past a certain item lvl. All this need for difficulties would disappear in pretty short order if the developers simple offered other content that rewarded as well as raiding. Then you could have all kinds of niche raiding and actually have it be niche and nobody would give a fuck. In fact nobody gave a fuck by and large in cataclysm where they did increase the raiding difficulty dramatically. As the developers note those people basically just moved on to the other content that rewarded them as well. EXACTLY what should have happened and should have continued to happen. It would mean lots of changes to raiding though. Fewer extremely challenging bosses, little or no loot you couldn't get outside the raid, couldn't be used to tell a story, and a host of other changes.

    As for the name yes it's a problem. It's optics and whether or not you can understand why somebody who only plays flex and lfr would be insulted that they aren't even good enough for normal is irellevant. The name ought to change to reflect what NORMAL means for this games population. Otherwise it's just a fucking joke.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-09-07 at 09:49 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  10. #730
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    Quote Originally Posted by Otiswhitaker View Post
    Because Blizzard seemingly doesn't quite understand how their playerbase works.. or doesn't care. They seem to constantly go out of their way to try and get people to raid, which is, even with LFR still, an activity in the game with fairly low participation, yet they focus almost all of their efforts on raiding content. One must really ask theirselves: What the flipping hell is wrong with Blizzard, and why do they do this?
    What is your source for saying LFR has fairly low participation? It's one of the most popular things done in game alongside random battlegrounds.

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  11. #731
    Quote Originally Posted by Danishgirl View Post
    I did read your post again but I'm starting to feel that I really have no clue about casual guilds, cause I simply don't get this mindset. Why on earth would you rather have to call your entire raid off, than rotate with 12-13 guildies? Also, the part about "running the whole way to you" thing. Well, there's always the option of using a Hearth Stone, leaving the raid and get ported. For the person who joins, you rarely have to run far. Cause after a few bosses, you're zoned closer to the next boss.

    Yes, it is "wasting time" when you rotate (read: not benching) but so is spamming trade, when Joe doesn't show up. So is trying to teach the pug what to do and so is calling the raid off entirely.

    I don't think this is just about the attitude of Heroic raiders tbh. Or if Normal mode raiders/casuals really can't see past their own desires to raid, then they have no right to complain, when their RL have to cancel their raid, cause 1 person didn't show. To me it just doesn't make sense, that you'd rather rely on all 10 people to be there every single time, than just having a few extras.

    Anyways, I agree that applying Flex to Normal mode is probably a good idea in the long run. Just as I believe that LFR should be removed from the game, when Flex takes over.

    Also: Stop freaking twisting people's words, when they're talking about rotating players. It's not the same as benching and some of you seemingly can't figure out to distinguish between the two (not personally directed at you Clevin).

    If players wants to leave a guild, cause they have to rotate - in order for the guild to be able to raid - then they can fuck off imo. Go find a guild that wants that shit attitude and then cry, when their raids are being cancelled, cause even one person doesn't show up. The mentality of some players are just beyond me.

    As a little OT thing. http://www.gamebreaker.tv/show/patch...endary-ep-142/

    On this weeks episode of Legendary, they actually have a very interesting discussion about casuals being upset about gated content, feeling treated like second rank players and feeling entitled to get the same rewards as Heroic raiders get etc. Kinda funny what they discuss and what Bashiok said about it as well.
    What you keep missing is that people want to raid. No one *wants* to sit. It's not that people who don't like to sit want to have the raid called vs rotating, but they would prefer to raid vs sit (what raider wouldn't?).

    Up to now, that option simply has not been there. But now, that option is available. Normal mode guilds do not any longer have to rotate people in and out, they can choose to raid Flex. If someone would rather raid than sit (and again, who wouldn't?) they can continue to rotate in and out or they can a) get their normal mode raid to go flex or b) they can leave and join a flex raid. I'd argue that, since Flex and Normal don't share lockouts, that they can raid Flex even outside of the guild and then rotate into their normal mode raid too, but for some people that ends up being too many nights of raiding.

    Now, a heroic guild won't move from heroic to flex just to avoid rotating because their mindset is to progress against the highest challenge. Everyone who joins a heroic raiding guild buys into this... they still would all prefer to raid, but they realize that it might be best to rotate people based on the needs of a given fight or to make sure everyone is geared. But normal mode guilds don't raid for the same reasons. Progression isn't as important to most of them, especially the ones who barely clear a tier while it's current (or who don't clear it). I don't mean that they don't want to kill things... but it's not as important as it is to heroic guilds.

    So, say you're a normal mode guild. You're in the middle of the pack of those guilds... you might have cleared ToT, perhaps you didn't even do that. You've been rotating people, etc. You have 12-17 people... someone asks "Hey, instead of having people sit, why don't we just raid flex in 5.4?" For a heroic guild the reason is easy - 'we want to raid at the highest level possible... that's the reason we exist.' For the normal mode guild I just described... the reason not to move to flex is a lot less obvious.

    One final point - some social, normal mode guilds can end up with 15-18 people who'd like to raid. It's WAY harder to rotate those into one 10 man raid. If you're at 18 you can recruit and get 2 10s going... but you really need another 6 people, not another 2 so you again have backups. If you're at 14-16 it's harder... you need almost another 8-10 people to make a viable second 10 man raid, but you have far too many to easily rotate. Flex also solves this quite neatly... instead of having to recruit people, deal with the drama of two 10 mans ("Why am I not on the better 10 man?") etc... just take your 14, 16 or 18 person raid into Flex. FAR easier, especially for the RLs and others who have to deal with all of this.

    PS: The thread on the official forums about delaying LFR was a bit silly but Bashiok did his normal bullshit and completely ignored the subtopic in there about Flex. Delaying LFR makes sense. Gating Flex even makes sense... but gating Flex so that the last two wings are released every 2 weeks vs every week does not make sense. They should just release a wing of flex every week from the first week so that it's completely out by the 4th week.
    Last edited by clevin; 2013-09-07 at 10:11 PM.

  12. #732
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Yes people wan't more. This is obvious now it behooves the developers to either provide them with more or expect they will leave. Now for you people leaving is all well and good but for the developers well ultimately no that's not good. It may be that they can't stop everyone from leaving but they should recognize (At least I hope they do for their sakes) that lots of people will either stay or come back if more is offered to them instead of less being offered to them so that others (tiny minorities really) will have.
    They're being offered something in the form of easier content. Indeed catering to customers is their primary concern, but they don't want to cater to some while shafting others and make them leave instead, and that's why they implement new modes instead of retuning existing ones. It shouldn't really be hard to understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    I mean ultimately I don't agree that's the problem but even if it is that should come as no surprise to you. The PROBLEM is that their is no alternative to raiding past a certain item lvl. All this need for difficulties would disappear in pretty short order if the developers simple offered other content that rewarded as well as raiding. Then you could have all kinds of niche raiding and actually have it be niche and nobody would give a fuck. In fact nobody gave a fuck by and large in cataclysm where they did increase the raiding difficulty dramatically. As the developers note those people basically just moved on to the other content that rewarded them as well. EXACTLY what should have happened and should have continued to happen. It would mean lots of changes to raiding though. Fewer extremely challenging bosses, little or no loot you couldn't get outside the raid, couldn't be used to tell a story, and a host of other changes.
    I've already asked you to provide examples for large scale content which would be a good substitute of raiding and you found none yet. If it's so easy, why don't you enlighten us with some of your ideas? And again, don't provide 5man dungeons as an example because they're either grinding (which doesn't appeal to a lot of people, hence the mass left which happened in GW2 which out of 3.5m copies sold kept ~600-800k of their customers after only one year) or progressing (which would basically become a lot of small raid content). Seeing how the raiding/progressing model (which gives people something to aspire to and therefore doesn't bring the thought that you're done doing everything within the game) has lasted for eight years, while the grinding model (guild wars 2 dungeon systems) has proven to be quite a flop in its first year, I guess I see why the developers don't share your idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    As for the name yes it's a problem. It's optics and whether or not you can understand why somebody who only plays flex and lfr would be insulted that they aren't even good enough for normal is irellevant. The name ought to change to reflect what NORMAL means for this games population. Otherwise it's just a fucking joke.
    As said, normal can be the level set as a standard and by no means does it necessarily relate to what the population is doing. And what I meant to show you with that post about colleges wasn't trying to compare wow and education, it would be pretty stupid and I thought you'd understand that wasn't the goal, it was just to show how naming conventions are nothing but that, because that guy is still the same person doing the same things.
    Last edited by Fluorescent0; 2013-09-07 at 10:00 PM.
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  13. #733
    The perception is that 5man content, - group quests, heroic dungeons along with the occasional "easier" 10man (as in ICC) with a couple pugged players no longer exists.
    This was popular content for a lot of players especially those in small guilds of friends/family with erratic playing times.
    Unfortunately, it sometimes seems as though the content was removed to put resources into raiding and LFR

    I think Flex could be a step in the right direction.

  14. #734
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluorescent0 View Post
    They're being offered something in the form of easier content. Indeed catering to customers is their primary concern, but they don't want to cater to some while shafting others and make them leave instead, and that's why they implement new modes instead of retuning existing ones. It shouldn't really be hard to understand



    I've already asked you to provide examples for large scale content which would be a good substitute of raiding and you found none yet. If it's so easy, why don't you enlighten us with some of your ideas? And again, don't provide 5man dungeons as an example because they're either grinding (which doesn't appeal to a lot of people, hence the mass left which happened in GW2 which out of 3.5m copies sold kept ~600-800k of their customers after only one year) or progressing (which would basically become a lot of small raid content). Seeing how the raiding/progressing model (which gives people something to aspire to and therefore doesn't bring the thought that you're done doing everything within the game) has lasted for eight years, while the grinding model (guild wars 2 dungeon systems) has proven to be quite a flop in its first year, I guess I see why the developers don't share your idea.



    As said, normal can be the level set as a standard and by no means does it necessarily relate to what the population is doing. And what I meant to show you with that post about colleges wasn't trying to compare wow and education, it would be pretty stupid and I thought you'd understand that wasn't the goal, it was just to show how naming conventions are nothing but that, because that guy is still the same person doing the same things.
    Except naming conventions do matter even in degrees. You instantly recognize that say the guy from Harvard is obviously a cut above the guy from say a state or public university even though they could potentially be studying the exact same thing. So yes I don't prefer to be told that I'm not normal and that I"m flex or lfr hero or whatever. The name ought to change. To be honest your not even really presenting an argument why it shouldn't. All your doing is saying the name means nothing. Okay fine if the name means nothing then change the bloody name then. It may mean nothing to you so alright then. If the naming conventions hold NO VALUE as you suggest then the name can be changed and no loss will have occurred. Obviously though the names do have meaning and they do have impact and they ought to reflect what the population can and can't do otherwise they really are meaningless. Either way FLEX=NORMAL and to think otherwise is a fucking joke.

    It doesn't have to be large scale content, that's a demand you've made but doesn't actually hold true to the options available to the developers. It's a genre convention that doesn't need to exist and in fact catering to it has only harmed them. 5 man dungeons are a pretty good example of alternatives to raid content. They offered far less grinding then the raids currently do, they offered far better time/reward ratio then the dungeons did and they were generally far more accessible then the raids are both from a time perspective and from a difficulty perspective (although they tried to make them harder in cata and it worked out REAL WELL for them didn't it ). The developers don't share my idea because they are ultimately hardcore raiders (or were) and naturally their choices reflect their tastes and often this happens at the expense of the game. Eventually if it happens often and severly enough they will be laid off, fired or moved onto other projects. As for something besides dungeons well I'll have to think about that. I didn't realize it was a necessary qualificataion that to critique an obviously flawed model one must have a better one immediately present at hand to replace it and one must also present his or her video game degree to forum denizens who demand you do better than the people who have had years doing this. I usually know I've won the debate when people yell at me HUR DUR DO BETTER THAN DURRR..


    Actually they are not trying to cater to everybody. It is not in the casuals best interest (or fair for them) that raiding be saved as the be all end all end game content model. If they were trying to cater to everybody fairly raiding would look a whole lot different then it does today.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Autumn View Post
    T
    Unfortunately, it sometimes seems as though the content was removed to put resources into raiding
    Effectively this is what occurred. It is not a serious attempt to please all, it is a cynical economic calculation designed to keep raiding content (primarily the content favored and chosen by hardcore players) sustainable.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-09-07 at 10:17 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  15. #735
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Except naming conventions do matter even in degrees. You instantly recognize that say the guy from Harvard is obviously a cut above the guy from say a state or public university even though they could potentially be studying the exact same thing. So yes I don't prefer to be told that I'm not normal and that I"m flex or lfr hero or whatever. The name ought to change.
    No, you perceive that. To recognize that you need to dig deeper. Quite a substantial difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    It doesn't have to be large scale content, that's a demand you've made but doesn't actually hold true to the options available to the developers. It's a genre convention that doesn't need to exist and in fact catering to it has only harmed them. 5 man dungeons are a pretty good example. They offered far less grinding then the raids currently do, they offered far better time/reward ratio then the dungeons did and they were generally far more accessible then the raids are both from a time perspective and from a difficulty perspective (although they tried to make them harder in cata and it worked out REAL WELL for them didn't it ). The developers don't share my idea because they are ultimately hardcore raiders (or were) and naturally their choices reflect their tastes and often this happens at the expense of the game. Eventually if it happens often and severly enough they will be laid off, fired or moved onto other projects. As for something besides dungeons well I'll have to think about that. I didn't realize it was a necessary qualificataion that to critique an obviously flawed model one must have a better one immediately present at hand to replace it and one must also present his or her video game degree to forum denizens who demand you do better than the people who have had years doing this. I usually know I've won the debate when people yell at me HUR DUR DO BETTER THAN DURRR..
    That's exactly the problem. This is a subscription based game. The developers want you to be subscribed as long as possible because that's how they actually gain money. If you could finish everything in a couple weeks you wouldn't subscribe anymore until the next content patch (which obviously costs money to make) and that would mean they wouldn't be gaining anymore. And no, I'm truly wondering because I can't think of a better model myself so I want to see your ideas on the matter. And no, I still stand by my point that a Massive Multiplayer Online game wouldn't be Massive anymore if all you had was 2-5 player content. It would simply be a multiplayer online game. There are plenty of console games for that (even RPGs!).


    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Actually they are not trying to cater to everybody. It is not in the casuals best interest (or fair for them) that raiding be saved as the be all end all end game content model. If they were trying to cater to everybody fairly raiding would look a whole lot different then it does today.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Effectively this is what occurred. It is not a serious attempt to please all, it is a cynical economic calculation designed to keep raiding content (primarily the content favored and chosen by hardcore players) sustainable.
    I can't see how a feature like LFR isn't casual friendly. What it takes to run is about a hour and a half (for a full wing, which you can leave whenever you want if something happens and you can't stay online with no real repercussion) and you don't even need to be paying attention to your computer for the first half a hour due to that being queue and leaving sound being enough to notice it has finally popped.
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  16. #736
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluorescent0 View Post
    No, you perceive that. To recognize that you need to dig deeper. Quite a substantial difference.



    That's exactly the problem. This is a subscription based game. The developers want you to be subscribed as long as possible because that's how they actually gain money. If you could finish everything in a couple weeks you wouldn't subscribe anymore until the next content patch (which obviously costs money to make) and that would mean they wouldn't be gaining anymore. And no, I'm truly wondering because I can't think of a better model myself so I want to see your ideas on the matter. And no, I still stand by my point that a Massive Multiplayer Online game wouldn't be Massive anymore if all you had was 2-5 player content. It would simply be a multiplayer online game. There are plenty of console games for that (even RPGs!).




    I can't see how a feature like LFR isn't casual friendly. What it takes to run is about a hour and a half (for a full wing, which you can leave whenever you want if something happens and you can't stay online with no real repercussion) and you don't even need to be paying attention to your computer for the first half a hour due to that being queue and leaving sound being enough to notice it has finally popped.
    Actually pretty much everyone within the relevant context perceives that. I mean I don't expect bushmen in africa understand what harvard is versus say university of phoenix but in the western world it's almost universal. In the same way the concept NORMAL is obviously understood by almost all, even maybe the bushmen. Like I said if it's all just perception and the naming conventions don't matter then the name can be changed and no ill consequences will come. OR they do have meaning and changing them would be harmful. If they do have meaning then telling players normal isn't for them is a massive insult. If they don't have meaning then changing the name should be painless. Your pick.

    Ironically according to their last report PEOPLE ARE STILL SUBSCRIBING BETWEEN PATCHES, nothing done in mists to change that has actually changed that and at the expense of that we lost casual friendly dungeons. You see while you may eat up all the content because you play the game like a fiend casual players DO NOT. They doin't have the time or the desire to play that often and that much. When they do play though they expect to make progress clearly and well they don't at least not relative to what everyone else who plays like a fucking mad man can. Now this may seem elementary and fair to you and the developers but to them it isn't. So they take their subscription somewhere else. Where dungeons provided the perfect pace of content for these players that's been robbed from them and they've been bricked walled behind LFR rng. Ultimately loosing subscribers hand over fist isn't gaining either. If they want retention then they have to provide people with enough reward and enough fun to come back and stay. Rehashing the same exact content on 4 difficulties isn't a good drive to keep people coming back. If I came back and had to raid lfr/flex and then maybe normal (of the EXACT SAME RAID) I think I would say fuck it because I'm not doing that same shit over and over again for 5-6 months while they get another raid together so I can do the exact same thing over and over again.

    The name and genre mmo is fuckign meaningless. I don't care what you call it and ultimately neither should the developers. I don't even think most people are aware that it's an mmorpg.

    LFR takes far more than an hour and a half to run. I've spent an hour in que JUST IN QUE never mind to clear the wing. In fact you can be one of the lucky ones, get a last boss que and then reque again for another hour and get JACK SHIT throughout all of it. Simple put raiding in any and all forms (including lfr) is not casual friendly. Their were far more casual friendly options before (re: dungeons) that took a back seat in the interest of saving raiders favorite hardcore content.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  17. #737
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Actually pretty much everyone within the relevant context perceives that. I mean I don't expect bushmen in africa understand what harvard is versus say university of phoenix but in the western world it's almost universal. In the same way the concept NORMAL is obviously understood by almost all, even maybe the bushmen. Like I said if it's all just perception and the naming conventions don't matter then the name can be changed and no ill consequences will come. OR they do have meaning and changing them would be harmful. If they do have meaning then telling players normal isn't for them is a massive insult. If they don't have meaning then changing the name should be painless. Your pick.
    For all I care they could name Heroics "lolfuckingeasymode" and keep the difficulty and I wouldn't care in the slightest. The point though is that whatever you and I may think, it's still up to them to do something like this and they are probably thinking along the lines I did in the previous posts. Also keep in mind that a word only has as much meaning as the community gives to it. If normals are massively overtuned, the whole community will know the standard is pretty high.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Ironically according to their last report PEOPLE ARE STILL SUBSCRIBING BETWEEN PATCHES, nothing done in mists to change that has actually changed that and at the expense of that we lost casual friendly dungeons. You see while you may eat up all the content because you play the game like a fiend casual players DO NOT. They doin't have the time or the desire to play that often and that much. When they do play though they expect to make progress clearly and well they don't at least not relative to what everyone else who plays like a fucking mad man can. Now this may seem elementary and fair to you and the developers but to them it isn't.
    How isn't it? Should less effort provide with the same rewards? It doesn't work like that basically anywhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    So they take their subscription somewhere else. Where dungeons provided the perfect pace of content for these players that's been robbed from them and they've been bricked walled behind LFR rng. Ultimately loosing subscribers hand over fist isn't gaining either. If they want retention then they have to provide people with enough reward and enough fun to come back and stay. Rehashing the same exact content on 4 difficulties isn't a good drive to keep people coming back. If I came back and had to raid lfr/flex and then maybe normal (of the EXACT SAME RAID) I think I would say fuck it because I'm not doing that same shit over and over again for 5-6 months while they get another raid together so I can do the exact same thing over and over again.
    And they unsubscribe after one month when they're done with everything. Keep in mind content has to be paid for, you can't afford having people subscribe one month, it probably doesn't cover the development costs. And, how does the fact that it's available in four difficulties affect you if you're such time-bound that you can only run one anyways, since you seem to be complaining a lot about time spent while raiding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    The name and genre mmo is fuckign meaningless. I don't care what you call it and ultimately neither should the developers. I don't even think most people are aware that it's an mmorpg.
    How is it meaningless? Please elaborate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    LFR takes far more than an hour and a half to run. I've spent an hour in que JUST IN QUE never mind to clear the wing. In fact you can be one of the lucky ones, get a last boss que and then reque again for another hour and get JACK SHIT throughout all of it. Simple put raiding in any and all forms (including lfr) is not casual friendly. Their were far more casual friendly options before (re: dungeons) that took a back seat in the interest of saving raiders favorite hardcore content.
    I'm finding average queues on my DPS characters to be about 20 minutes. Unless you're queueing on weird times such as Saturday evenings or late-night (and if you're a casual I could see you going out or sleeping at those hours) I really can't see where you're coming from with one hour queues. And keep in mind this is also the end of the tier, when people got pretty much fed up with the content already.
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  18. #738
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    As for the name yes it's a problem. It's optics and whether or not you can understand why somebody who only plays flex and lfr would be insulted that they aren't even good enough for normal is irellevant. The name ought to change to reflect what NORMAL means for this games population. Otherwise it's just a fucking joke.
    Two questions:

    1) Why can't you consider Flex to be Normal and Normal to be heroic? Because it won't be the official designation and therefor others won't agree?

    2) Be honest with yourself here, what makes you think that Normal ins't normal? Because the majority (?) of guilds can't do it? Couldn't that mean that the majority of guilds AREN'T normal? Note that "normal" doesn't mean the same thing as "average" although the two tend to be close. Something can be normal without the majority doing it. I'm going to play Devil's Advocate since I tend to normally agree with you at least at the basic level, but this constant "Normal isn't normal because the average guilds can't do it" is a fallacy if I ever saw one. Most guilds aren't normal, they're BAD. And yes I would lump my own guild in that category.

    How is it "high horse BS" to expect some level of competency and skill in order to raid, ESPECIALLY when there are multiple difficulties? A DPS that won't improve and performs subpar doesn't belong in normal mode raids, and that's not being an elitist or anything that's the truth because there has to be SOME baseline assumption. You can think of it like organized sports: Normal is Minor League Baseball, Heroic is Major League Baseball, and Flex is the social league with friends that actually has some kind of team rankings (say a work league) and LFR is like a group playing a kinda sorta version of softball amongst themselves without really caring about how well anyone plays because it's all in good fun (maybe a good analogy would be a group of kids on the playground, where you aren't being competitive just having fun, with "that one kid" saying how great he is because he was Little League champion and you all suck at the game etc.)
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  19. #739
    High Overlord tussee's Avatar
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    It's perfectly normal for games to have dirrerent difficulty settings.

    Most games have only 3 modes:

    Easy
    Medium
    Hard

    As far back as I can remember I have been able to choose how hard I want my games to be.

    FPS Games: Wolfenstein, Doom, Hexen. etc.
    Strategy games: Civilization, Dune II, Warcraft, starcraft, Command & Conquer
    Roleplaying games: Diablo, Skyrim.

    So why shouldn't a game like World of Warcraft have difficulty settings?
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  20. #740
    Quote Originally Posted by tussee View Post
    It's perfectly normal for games to have dirrerent difficulty settings.

    Most games have only 3 modes:

    Easy
    Medium
    Hard

    As far back as I can remember I have been able to choose how hard I want my games to be.

    FPS Games: Wolfenstein, Doom, Hexen. etc.
    Strategy games: Civilization, Dune II, Warcraft, starcraft, Command & Conquer
    Roleplaying games: Diablo, Skyrim.

    So why shouldn't a game like World of Warcraft have difficulty settings?
    The point is in that those games gaming modes are mutually exclusive. Playing an FPS game on hard means you don't gain anything by repeating it over and over again on medium as well. Raiding on lfr/flex does give a pretty substantial boost early on in the tier due to tier bonuses and overpowered trinkets (as an example, the CD-reduction agility trinket lfr version is +25k dps for combat over a 549 badjuju/renataki)
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