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  1. #721
    Titan Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluorescent0 View Post
    They have a broad appeal, it's called Flex and LFR. The problem here is that you aren't happy and want more without doing anything more than you already are. How is it an insult if you're effectively not raiding normal modes? That's below the standard they set, and a name shouldn't really affect you in the slightest unless you have serious self-esteem issues.
    Yes people wan't more. This is obvious now it behooves the developers to either provide them with more or expect they will leave. Now for you people leaving is all well and good but for the developers well ultimately no that's not good. It may be that they can't stop everyone from leaving but they should recognize (At least I hope they do for their sakes) that lots of people will either stay or come back if more is offered to them instead of less being offered to them so that others (tiny minorities really) will have.

    I mean ultimately I don't agree that's the problem but even if it is that should come as no surprise to you. The PROBLEM is that their is no alternative to raiding past a certain item lvl. All this need for difficulties would disappear in pretty short order if the developers simple offered other content that rewarded as well as raiding. Then you could have all kinds of niche raiding and actually have it be niche and nobody would give a fuck. In fact nobody gave a fuck by and large in cataclysm where they did increase the raiding difficulty dramatically. As the developers note those people basically just moved on to the other content that rewarded them as well. EXACTLY what should have happened and should have continued to happen. It would mean lots of changes to raiding though. Fewer extremely challenging bosses, little or no loot you couldn't get outside the raid, couldn't be used to tell a story, and a host of other changes.

    As for the name yes it's a problem. It's optics and whether or not you can understand why somebody who only plays flex and lfr would be insulted that they aren't even good enough for normal is irellevant. The name ought to change to reflect what NORMAL means for this games population. Otherwise it's just a fucking joke.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-09-07 at 09:49 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  2. #722
    Brewmaster caninepawprints's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Otiswhitaker View Post
    Because Blizzard seemingly doesn't quite understand how their playerbase works.. or doesn't care. They seem to constantly go out of their way to try and get people to raid, which is, even with LFR still, an activity in the game with fairly low participation, yet they focus almost all of their efforts on raiding content. One must really ask theirselves: What the flipping hell is wrong with Blizzard, and why do they do this?
    What is your source for saying LFR has fairly low participation? It's one of the most popular things done in game alongside random battlegrounds.

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  3. #723
    Quote Originally Posted by Danishgirl View Post
    I did read your post again but I'm starting to feel that I really have no clue about casual guilds, cause I simply don't get this mindset. Why on earth would you rather have to call your entire raid off, than rotate with 12-13 guildies? Also, the part about "running the whole way to you" thing. Well, there's always the option of using a Hearth Stone, leaving the raid and get ported. For the person who joins, you rarely have to run far. Cause after a few bosses, you're zoned closer to the next boss.

    Yes, it is "wasting time" when you rotate (read: not benching) but so is spamming trade, when Joe doesn't show up. So is trying to teach the pug what to do and so is calling the raid off entirely.

    I don't think this is just about the attitude of Heroic raiders tbh. Or if Normal mode raiders/casuals really can't see past their own desires to raid, then they have no right to complain, when their RL have to cancel their raid, cause 1 person didn't show. To me it just doesn't make sense, that you'd rather rely on all 10 people to be there every single time, than just having a few extras.

    Anyways, I agree that applying Flex to Normal mode is probably a good idea in the long run. Just as I believe that LFR should be removed from the game, when Flex takes over.

    Also: Stop freaking twisting people's words, when they're talking about rotating players. It's not the same as benching and some of you seemingly can't figure out to distinguish between the two (not personally directed at you Clevin).

    If players wants to leave a guild, cause they have to rotate - in order for the guild to be able to raid - then they can fuck off imo. Go find a guild that wants that shit attitude and then cry, when their raids are being cancelled, cause even one person doesn't show up. The mentality of some players are just beyond me.

    As a little OT thing. http://www.gamebreaker.tv/show/patch...endary-ep-142/

    On this weeks episode of Legendary, they actually have a very interesting discussion about casuals being upset about gated content, feeling treated like second rank players and feeling entitled to get the same rewards as Heroic raiders get etc. Kinda funny what they discuss and what Bashiok said about it as well.
    What you keep missing is that people want to raid. No one *wants* to sit. It's not that people who don't like to sit want to have the raid called vs rotating, but they would prefer to raid vs sit (what raider wouldn't?).

    Up to now, that option simply has not been there. But now, that option is available. Normal mode guilds do not any longer have to rotate people in and out, they can choose to raid Flex. If someone would rather raid than sit (and again, who wouldn't?) they can continue to rotate in and out or they can a) get their normal mode raid to go flex or b) they can leave and join a flex raid. I'd argue that, since Flex and Normal don't share lockouts, that they can raid Flex even outside of the guild and then rotate into their normal mode raid too, but for some people that ends up being too many nights of raiding.

    Now, a heroic guild won't move from heroic to flex just to avoid rotating because their mindset is to progress against the highest challenge. Everyone who joins a heroic raiding guild buys into this... they still would all prefer to raid, but they realize that it might be best to rotate people based on the needs of a given fight or to make sure everyone is geared. But normal mode guilds don't raid for the same reasons. Progression isn't as important to most of them, especially the ones who barely clear a tier while it's current (or who don't clear it). I don't mean that they don't want to kill things... but it's not as important as it is to heroic guilds.

    So, say you're a normal mode guild. You're in the middle of the pack of those guilds... you might have cleared ToT, perhaps you didn't even do that. You've been rotating people, etc. You have 12-17 people... someone asks "Hey, instead of having people sit, why don't we just raid flex in 5.4?" For a heroic guild the reason is easy - 'we want to raid at the highest level possible... that's the reason we exist.' For the normal mode guild I just described... the reason not to move to flex is a lot less obvious.

    One final point - some social, normal mode guilds can end up with 15-18 people who'd like to raid. It's WAY harder to rotate those into one 10 man raid. If you're at 18 you can recruit and get 2 10s going... but you really need another 6 people, not another 2 so you again have backups. If you're at 14-16 it's harder... you need almost another 8-10 people to make a viable second 10 man raid, but you have far too many to easily rotate. Flex also solves this quite neatly... instead of having to recruit people, deal with the drama of two 10 mans ("Why am I not on the better 10 man?") etc... just take your 14, 16 or 18 person raid into Flex. FAR easier, especially for the RLs and others who have to deal with all of this.

    PS: The thread on the official forums about delaying LFR was a bit silly but Bashiok did his normal bullshit and completely ignored the subtopic in there about Flex. Delaying LFR makes sense. Gating Flex even makes sense... but gating Flex so that the last two wings are released every 2 weeks vs every week does not make sense. They should just release a wing of flex every week from the first week so that it's completely out by the 4th week.
    Last edited by clevin; 2013-09-07 at 10:11 PM.

  4. #724
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Yes people wan't more. This is obvious now it behooves the developers to either provide them with more or expect they will leave. Now for you people leaving is all well and good but for the developers well ultimately no that's not good. It may be that they can't stop everyone from leaving but they should recognize (At least I hope they do for their sakes) that lots of people will either stay or come back if more is offered to them instead of less being offered to them so that others (tiny minorities really) will have.
    They're being offered something in the form of easier content. Indeed catering to customers is their primary concern, but they don't want to cater to some while shafting others and make them leave instead, and that's why they implement new modes instead of retuning existing ones. It shouldn't really be hard to understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    I mean ultimately I don't agree that's the problem but even if it is that should come as no surprise to you. The PROBLEM is that their is no alternative to raiding past a certain item lvl. All this need for difficulties would disappear in pretty short order if the developers simple offered other content that rewarded as well as raiding. Then you could have all kinds of niche raiding and actually have it be niche and nobody would give a fuck. In fact nobody gave a fuck by and large in cataclysm where they did increase the raiding difficulty dramatically. As the developers note those people basically just moved on to the other content that rewarded them as well. EXACTLY what should have happened and should have continued to happen. It would mean lots of changes to raiding though. Fewer extremely challenging bosses, little or no loot you couldn't get outside the raid, couldn't be used to tell a story, and a host of other changes.
    I've already asked you to provide examples for large scale content which would be a good substitute of raiding and you found none yet. If it's so easy, why don't you enlighten us with some of your ideas? And again, don't provide 5man dungeons as an example because they're either grinding (which doesn't appeal to a lot of people, hence the mass left which happened in GW2 which out of 3.5m copies sold kept ~600-800k of their customers after only one year) or progressing (which would basically become a lot of small raid content). Seeing how the raiding/progressing model (which gives people something to aspire to and therefore doesn't bring the thought that you're done doing everything within the game) has lasted for eight years, while the grinding model (guild wars 2 dungeon systems) has proven to be quite a flop in its first year, I guess I see why the developers don't share your idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    As for the name yes it's a problem. It's optics and whether or not you can understand why somebody who only plays flex and lfr would be insulted that they aren't even good enough for normal is irellevant. The name ought to change to reflect what NORMAL means for this games population. Otherwise it's just a fucking joke.
    As said, normal can be the level set as a standard and by no means does it necessarily relate to what the population is doing. And what I meant to show you with that post about colleges wasn't trying to compare wow and education, it would be pretty stupid and I thought you'd understand that wasn't the goal, it was just to show how naming conventions are nothing but that, because that guy is still the same person doing the same things.
    Last edited by Fluorescent0; 2013-09-07 at 10:00 PM.
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  5. #725
    The perception is that 5man content, - group quests, heroic dungeons along with the occasional "easier" 10man (as in ICC) with a couple pugged players no longer exists.
    This was popular content for a lot of players especially those in small guilds of friends/family with erratic playing times.
    Unfortunately, it sometimes seems as though the content was removed to put resources into raiding and LFR

    I think Flex could be a step in the right direction.

  6. #726
    Titan Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluorescent0 View Post
    They're being offered something in the form of easier content. Indeed catering to customers is their primary concern, but they don't want to cater to some while shafting others and make them leave instead, and that's why they implement new modes instead of retuning existing ones. It shouldn't really be hard to understand



    I've already asked you to provide examples for large scale content which would be a good substitute of raiding and you found none yet. If it's so easy, why don't you enlighten us with some of your ideas? And again, don't provide 5man dungeons as an example because they're either grinding (which doesn't appeal to a lot of people, hence the mass left which happened in GW2 which out of 3.5m copies sold kept ~600-800k of their customers after only one year) or progressing (which would basically become a lot of small raid content). Seeing how the raiding/progressing model (which gives people something to aspire to and therefore doesn't bring the thought that you're done doing everything within the game) has lasted for eight years, while the grinding model (guild wars 2 dungeon systems) has proven to be quite a flop in its first year, I guess I see why the developers don't share your idea.



    As said, normal can be the level set as a standard and by no means does it necessarily relate to what the population is doing. And what I meant to show you with that post about colleges wasn't trying to compare wow and education, it would be pretty stupid and I thought you'd understand that wasn't the goal, it was just to show how naming conventions are nothing but that, because that guy is still the same person doing the same things.
    Except naming conventions do matter even in degrees. You instantly recognize that say the guy from Harvard is obviously a cut above the guy from say a state or public university even though they could potentially be studying the exact same thing. So yes I don't prefer to be told that I'm not normal and that I"m flex or lfr hero or whatever. The name ought to change. To be honest your not even really presenting an argument why it shouldn't. All your doing is saying the name means nothing. Okay fine if the name means nothing then change the bloody name then. It may mean nothing to you so alright then. If the naming conventions hold NO VALUE as you suggest then the name can be changed and no loss will have occurred. Obviously though the names do have meaning and they do have impact and they ought to reflect what the population can and can't do otherwise they really are meaningless. Either way FLEX=NORMAL and to think otherwise is a fucking joke.

    It doesn't have to be large scale content, that's a demand you've made but doesn't actually hold true to the options available to the developers. It's a genre convention that doesn't need to exist and in fact catering to it has only harmed them. 5 man dungeons are a pretty good example of alternatives to raid content. They offered far less grinding then the raids currently do, they offered far better time/reward ratio then the dungeons did and they were generally far more accessible then the raids are both from a time perspective and from a difficulty perspective (although they tried to make them harder in cata and it worked out REAL WELL for them didn't it ). The developers don't share my idea because they are ultimately hardcore raiders (or were) and naturally their choices reflect their tastes and often this happens at the expense of the game. Eventually if it happens often and severly enough they will be laid off, fired or moved onto other projects. As for something besides dungeons well I'll have to think about that. I didn't realize it was a necessary qualificataion that to critique an obviously flawed model one must have a better one immediately present at hand to replace it and one must also present his or her video game degree to forum denizens who demand you do better than the people who have had years doing this. I usually know I've won the debate when people yell at me HUR DUR DO BETTER THAN DURRR..


    Actually they are not trying to cater to everybody. It is not in the casuals best interest (or fair for them) that raiding be saved as the be all end all end game content model. If they were trying to cater to everybody fairly raiding would look a whole lot different then it does today.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Autumn View Post
    T
    Unfortunately, it sometimes seems as though the content was removed to put resources into raiding
    Effectively this is what occurred. It is not a serious attempt to please all, it is a cynical economic calculation designed to keep raiding content (primarily the content favored and chosen by hardcore players) sustainable.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-09-07 at 10:17 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  7. #727
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Except naming conventions do matter even in degrees. You instantly recognize that say the guy from Harvard is obviously a cut above the guy from say a state or public university even though they could potentially be studying the exact same thing. So yes I don't prefer to be told that I'm not normal and that I"m flex or lfr hero or whatever. The name ought to change.
    No, you perceive that. To recognize that you need to dig deeper. Quite a substantial difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    It doesn't have to be large scale content, that's a demand you've made but doesn't actually hold true to the options available to the developers. It's a genre convention that doesn't need to exist and in fact catering to it has only harmed them. 5 man dungeons are a pretty good example. They offered far less grinding then the raids currently do, they offered far better time/reward ratio then the dungeons did and they were generally far more accessible then the raids are both from a time perspective and from a difficulty perspective (although they tried to make them harder in cata and it worked out REAL WELL for them didn't it ). The developers don't share my idea because they are ultimately hardcore raiders (or were) and naturally their choices reflect their tastes and often this happens at the expense of the game. Eventually if it happens often and severly enough they will be laid off, fired or moved onto other projects. As for something besides dungeons well I'll have to think about that. I didn't realize it was a necessary qualificataion that to critique an obviously flawed model one must have a better one immediately present at hand to replace it and one must also present his or her video game degree to forum denizens who demand you do better than the people who have had years doing this. I usually know I've won the debate when people yell at me HUR DUR DO BETTER THAN DURRR..
    That's exactly the problem. This is a subscription based game. The developers want you to be subscribed as long as possible because that's how they actually gain money. If you could finish everything in a couple weeks you wouldn't subscribe anymore until the next content patch (which obviously costs money to make) and that would mean they wouldn't be gaining anymore. And no, I'm truly wondering because I can't think of a better model myself so I want to see your ideas on the matter. And no, I still stand by my point that a Massive Multiplayer Online game wouldn't be Massive anymore if all you had was 2-5 player content. It would simply be a multiplayer online game. There are plenty of console games for that (even RPGs!).


    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Actually they are not trying to cater to everybody. It is not in the casuals best interest (or fair for them) that raiding be saved as the be all end all end game content model. If they were trying to cater to everybody fairly raiding would look a whole lot different then it does today.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Effectively this is what occurred. It is not a serious attempt to please all, it is a cynical economic calculation designed to keep raiding content (primarily the content favored and chosen by hardcore players) sustainable.
    I can't see how a feature like LFR isn't casual friendly. What it takes to run is about a hour and a half (for a full wing, which you can leave whenever you want if something happens and you can't stay online with no real repercussion) and you don't even need to be paying attention to your computer for the first half a hour due to that being queue and leaving sound being enough to notice it has finally popped.
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  8. #728
    Titan Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluorescent0 View Post
    No, you perceive that. To recognize that you need to dig deeper. Quite a substantial difference.



    That's exactly the problem. This is a subscription based game. The developers want you to be subscribed as long as possible because that's how they actually gain money. If you could finish everything in a couple weeks you wouldn't subscribe anymore until the next content patch (which obviously costs money to make) and that would mean they wouldn't be gaining anymore. And no, I'm truly wondering because I can't think of a better model myself so I want to see your ideas on the matter. And no, I still stand by my point that a Massive Multiplayer Online game wouldn't be Massive anymore if all you had was 2-5 player content. It would simply be a multiplayer online game. There are plenty of console games for that (even RPGs!).




    I can't see how a feature like LFR isn't casual friendly. What it takes to run is about a hour and a half (for a full wing, which you can leave whenever you want if something happens and you can't stay online with no real repercussion) and you don't even need to be paying attention to your computer for the first half a hour due to that being queue and leaving sound being enough to notice it has finally popped.
    Actually pretty much everyone within the relevant context perceives that. I mean I don't expect bushmen in africa understand what harvard is versus say university of phoenix but in the western world it's almost universal. In the same way the concept NORMAL is obviously understood by almost all, even maybe the bushmen. Like I said if it's all just perception and the naming conventions don't matter then the name can be changed and no ill consequences will come. OR they do have meaning and changing them would be harmful. If they do have meaning then telling players normal isn't for them is a massive insult. If they don't have meaning then changing the name should be painless. Your pick.

    Ironically according to their last report PEOPLE ARE STILL SUBSCRIBING BETWEEN PATCHES, nothing done in mists to change that has actually changed that and at the expense of that we lost casual friendly dungeons. You see while you may eat up all the content because you play the game like a fiend casual players DO NOT. They doin't have the time or the desire to play that often and that much. When they do play though they expect to make progress clearly and well they don't at least not relative to what everyone else who plays like a fucking mad man can. Now this may seem elementary and fair to you and the developers but to them it isn't. So they take their subscription somewhere else. Where dungeons provided the perfect pace of content for these players that's been robbed from them and they've been bricked walled behind LFR rng. Ultimately loosing subscribers hand over fist isn't gaining either. If they want retention then they have to provide people with enough reward and enough fun to come back and stay. Rehashing the same exact content on 4 difficulties isn't a good drive to keep people coming back. If I came back and had to raid lfr/flex and then maybe normal (of the EXACT SAME RAID) I think I would say fuck it because I'm not doing that same shit over and over again for 5-6 months while they get another raid together so I can do the exact same thing over and over again.

    The name and genre mmo is fuckign meaningless. I don't care what you call it and ultimately neither should the developers. I don't even think most people are aware that it's an mmorpg.

    LFR takes far more than an hour and a half to run. I've spent an hour in que JUST IN QUE never mind to clear the wing. In fact you can be one of the lucky ones, get a last boss que and then reque again for another hour and get JACK SHIT throughout all of it. Simple put raiding in any and all forms (including lfr) is not casual friendly. Their were far more casual friendly options before (re: dungeons) that took a back seat in the interest of saving raiders favorite hardcore content.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  9. #729
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Actually pretty much everyone within the relevant context perceives that. I mean I don't expect bushmen in africa understand what harvard is versus say university of phoenix but in the western world it's almost universal. In the same way the concept NORMAL is obviously understood by almost all, even maybe the bushmen. Like I said if it's all just perception and the naming conventions don't matter then the name can be changed and no ill consequences will come. OR they do have meaning and changing them would be harmful. If they do have meaning then telling players normal isn't for them is a massive insult. If they don't have meaning then changing the name should be painless. Your pick.
    For all I care they could name Heroics "lolfuckingeasymode" and keep the difficulty and I wouldn't care in the slightest. The point though is that whatever you and I may think, it's still up to them to do something like this and they are probably thinking along the lines I did in the previous posts. Also keep in mind that a word only has as much meaning as the community gives to it. If normals are massively overtuned, the whole community will know the standard is pretty high.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Ironically according to their last report PEOPLE ARE STILL SUBSCRIBING BETWEEN PATCHES, nothing done in mists to change that has actually changed that and at the expense of that we lost casual friendly dungeons. You see while you may eat up all the content because you play the game like a fiend casual players DO NOT. They doin't have the time or the desire to play that often and that much. When they do play though they expect to make progress clearly and well they don't at least not relative to what everyone else who plays like a fucking mad man can. Now this may seem elementary and fair to you and the developers but to them it isn't.
    How isn't it? Should less effort provide with the same rewards? It doesn't work like that basically anywhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    So they take their subscription somewhere else. Where dungeons provided the perfect pace of content for these players that's been robbed from them and they've been bricked walled behind LFR rng. Ultimately loosing subscribers hand over fist isn't gaining either. If they want retention then they have to provide people with enough reward and enough fun to come back and stay. Rehashing the same exact content on 4 difficulties isn't a good drive to keep people coming back. If I came back and had to raid lfr/flex and then maybe normal (of the EXACT SAME RAID) I think I would say fuck it because I'm not doing that same shit over and over again for 5-6 months while they get another raid together so I can do the exact same thing over and over again.
    And they unsubscribe after one month when they're done with everything. Keep in mind content has to be paid for, you can't afford having people subscribe one month, it probably doesn't cover the development costs. And, how does the fact that it's available in four difficulties affect you if you're such time-bound that you can only run one anyways, since you seem to be complaining a lot about time spent while raiding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    The name and genre mmo is fuckign meaningless. I don't care what you call it and ultimately neither should the developers. I don't even think most people are aware that it's an mmorpg.
    How is it meaningless? Please elaborate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    LFR takes far more than an hour and a half to run. I've spent an hour in que JUST IN QUE never mind to clear the wing. In fact you can be one of the lucky ones, get a last boss que and then reque again for another hour and get JACK SHIT throughout all of it. Simple put raiding in any and all forms (including lfr) is not casual friendly. Their were far more casual friendly options before (re: dungeons) that took a back seat in the interest of saving raiders favorite hardcore content.
    I'm finding average queues on my DPS characters to be about 20 minutes. Unless you're queueing on weird times such as Saturday evenings or late-night (and if you're a casual I could see you going out or sleeping at those hours) I really can't see where you're coming from with one hour queues. And keep in mind this is also the end of the tier, when people got pretty much fed up with the content already.
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  10. #730
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    As for the name yes it's a problem. It's optics and whether or not you can understand why somebody who only plays flex and lfr would be insulted that they aren't even good enough for normal is irellevant. The name ought to change to reflect what NORMAL means for this games population. Otherwise it's just a fucking joke.
    Two questions:

    1) Why can't you consider Flex to be Normal and Normal to be heroic? Because it won't be the official designation and therefor others won't agree?

    2) Be honest with yourself here, what makes you think that Normal ins't normal? Because the majority (?) of guilds can't do it? Couldn't that mean that the majority of guilds AREN'T normal? Note that "normal" doesn't mean the same thing as "average" although the two tend to be close. Something can be normal without the majority doing it. I'm going to play Devil's Advocate since I tend to normally agree with you at least at the basic level, but this constant "Normal isn't normal because the average guilds can't do it" is a fallacy if I ever saw one. Most guilds aren't normal, they're BAD. And yes I would lump my own guild in that category.

    How is it "high horse BS" to expect some level of competency and skill in order to raid, ESPECIALLY when there are multiple difficulties? A DPS that won't improve and performs subpar doesn't belong in normal mode raids, and that's not being an elitist or anything that's the truth because there has to be SOME baseline assumption. You can think of it like organized sports: Normal is Minor League Baseball, Heroic is Major League Baseball, and Flex is the social league with friends that actually has some kind of team rankings (say a work league) and LFR is like a group playing a kinda sorta version of softball amongst themselves without really caring about how well anyone plays because it's all in good fun (maybe a good analogy would be a group of kids on the playground, where you aren't being competitive just having fun, with "that one kid" saying how great he is because he was Little League champion and you all suck at the game etc.)
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  11. #731
    High Overlord tussee's Avatar
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    It's perfectly normal for games to have dirrerent difficulty settings.

    Most games have only 3 modes:

    Easy
    Medium
    Hard

    As far back as I can remember I have been able to choose how hard I want my games to be.

    FPS Games: Wolfenstein, Doom, Hexen. etc.
    Strategy games: Civilization, Dune II, Warcraft, starcraft, Command & Conquer
    Roleplaying games: Diablo, Skyrim.

    So why shouldn't a game like World of Warcraft have difficulty settings?
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  12. #732
    Quote Originally Posted by tussee View Post
    It's perfectly normal for games to have dirrerent difficulty settings.

    Most games have only 3 modes:

    Easy
    Medium
    Hard

    As far back as I can remember I have been able to choose how hard I want my games to be.

    FPS Games: Wolfenstein, Doom, Hexen. etc.
    Strategy games: Civilization, Dune II, Warcraft, starcraft, Command & Conquer
    Roleplaying games: Diablo, Skyrim.

    So why shouldn't a game like World of Warcraft have difficulty settings?
    The point is in that those games gaming modes are mutually exclusive. Playing an FPS game on hard means you don't gain anything by repeating it over and over again on medium as well. Raiding on lfr/flex does give a pretty substantial boost early on in the tier due to tier bonuses and overpowered trinkets (as an example, the CD-reduction agility trinket lfr version is +25k dps for combat over a 549 badjuju/renataki)
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  13. #733
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluorescent0 View Post
    For all I care they could name Heroics "lolfuckingeasymode" and keep the difficulty and I wouldn't care in the slightest. The point though is that whatever you and I may think, it's still up to them to do something like this and they are probably thinking along the lines I did in the previous posts. Also keep in mind that a word only has as much meaning as the community gives to it. If normals are massively overtuned, the whole community will know the standard is pretty high.



    How isn't it? Should less effort provide with the same rewards? It doesn't work like that basically anywhere.



    And they unsubscribe after one month when they're done with everything. Keep in mind content has to be paid for, you can't afford having people subscribe one month, it probably doesn't cover the development costs. And, how does the fact that it's available in four difficulties affect you if you're such time-bound that you can only run one anyways, since you seem to be complaining a lot about time spent while raiding?



    How is it meaningless? Please elaborate.



    I'm finding average queues on my DPS characters to be about 20 minutes. Unless you're queueing on weird times such as Saturday evenings or late-night (and if you're a casual I could see you going out or sleeping at those hours) I really can't see where you're coming from with one hour queues. And keep in mind this is also the end of the tier, when people got pretty much fed up with the content already.
    The community rarely acts as a whole. While in fact normals are massively overtuned you hear quite a small vocal subset who insist everything is fine and people just suck. I'm glad you wouldn't care, your still not providing an argument for why the name shouldn't be changed just that it's meaningless. Well if it's so meaningless then the name can be changed with no problem. Now obviously it's not meaningless to everyone so the change will be made with some teeth gnashing because ultimately the naming conventions DO MATTER, it's why they exist.

    In the first place people aren't interested in how it works "anywhere", in fact they play Warcraft primarily to escape "anywhere" (i.e the real world). To expect them to also have to come home and find out their escape is now another job is pretty lame way to spend 15 bucks a month. Secondly nobody is actually providing less effort. The guy who can only play 2 hours a week is providing a tremendous amount of effort FOR HIM. Once again that's relative to. However he gets the SHAFT this expansion because some of you can play for so much longer and put in so much more "effort". Finally less effort ought to reward more than it currently does even if it doesn't reward everything it ought to give out alot more.

    No they don't unsubscribe after one month because for many of those casual players one month isn't enough to get any real progress anyway it certainly wasn't in cataclysm but definitely isn't in mists. In fact it's so bad now that you get far less for your time invested then you did since basically tbc. For a casual player the time you can spend in game is worth alot less then it was in Cataclysm. The people who don unsubscribe are basically the people who play 20+ hours anyway and those folks well you can't keep them. The game cannot be sustained on their backs and you can't sate their playstyle anyway. The developers tried this expansion and well people still unsub around patches.

    The 4 difficulties argument is a different story altogether. It's another facet of this incredibly poor design. The poor design that leaves NO alternative (for casual or hardcore) player that isn't raiding. For hardcores this is piss poor because well I mean your gonna do the raid on normal, having to do the EXACT SAME RAID as catch up is fucking terrible. For casuals well raiding as a whole even lfr is just terrible. Basically it's an economic concern that has been forced upon the player base. In cataclysm people were foresaking raiding and even the world so that just can't happen. People just have to be FORCED to get the most use out of the content the fun behind it not mattering one bit.

    The name and the genre are meaningless in so far as people playing by and large are concerned. They are not consciously aware of the fact that they are playing an mmo when they are playing it nor when they buy it. I know of almost no one who picks up the box and instead of looking at the cool dragon or elf or whatever looks ferociously for the genre and says oh good mmo phew for a second I was worried one of the Os was missing. The name is meaningless in the same way you think the word NORMAL is just a perception. It's simple a convention that can be ignored.

    I'm glad you get good ques. That's not a universal situation by any means not does it mean the runs will necesarilly go fast or be rewarding. The experience is probably the opposite. Lots of time spent for little gain, the exact opposite of cataclysm and very uncasual friendly. Very un player friendly really.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  14. #734
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    Quote Originally Posted by superdooper View Post
    I hate having multiple difficulty levels. Does anybody seriously enjoy killing the same damn boss 100+ times per tier?
    This is one of the major reasons I quit playing the game. Not because there were options and I felt a need/requirement to do them, but because with the introduction of multi-difficulty raiding content came the removal of variety of raiding content.

    Let me explain briefly - in BC/Vanilla you had your 25/40-man "hard core" raids with BT, SSC, MC, etc... but you also had your smaller raids - Karazhan, ZG, ZA, Gruul, Mag; Instead of my alts playing through the same content as my main I was given the opportunity of doing lower content to progress through.

    Once WOTLK hit I found myself doing the same instances (via 10man content) on both characters - this trend never stopped.

    Now, if the game still introduced those 10mans (ZA/ZG/Karazhan) for variety along with multiple modes - I'd be fine with it, but it doesn't. I really hope this changes in the future.

  15. #735
    High Overlord tussee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluorescent0 View Post
    The point is in that those games gaming modes are mutually exclusive. Playing an FPS game on hard means you don't gain anything by repeating it over and over again on medium as well. Raiding on lfr/flex does give a pretty substantial boost early on in the tier due to tier bonuses and overpowered trinkets (as an example, the CD-reduction agility trinket lfr version is +25k dps for combat over a 549 badjuju/renataki)
    So you don't want people with less time on their hands to play the game?
    You want it all for yourself right?

    WoW may not be the game for you.

    If LFR/flex/Heroic wasn't there ane we went back to vanilla style, you wouldn't be able to get two chances at the Tier and Trinkets.
    Luckily for you they are here.

    You have two shots at the better gear.
    I only have one (As I don't have the time/can't plan ahead when to raid) Which is LFR.
    I even have to wait a week after you had one reset.

    [sarcasm]That's not fair. Remove Heroic, Normal and Flex[/sarcasm]
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  16. #736
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    Two questions:

    1) Why can't you consider Flex to be Normal and Normal to be heroic? Because it won't be the official designation and therefor others won't agree?

    2) Be honest with yourself here, what makes you think that Normal ins't normal? Because the majority (?) of guilds can't do it? Couldn't that mean that the majority of guilds AREN'T normal? Note that "normal" doesn't mean the same thing as "average" although the two tend to be close. Something can be normal without the majority doing it. I'm going to play Devil's Advocate since I tend to normally agree with you at least at the basic level, but this constant "Normal isn't normal because the average guilds can't do it" is a fallacy if I ever saw one. Most guilds aren't normal, they're BAD. And yes I would lump my own guild in that category.

    How is it "high horse BS" to expect some level of competency and skill in order to raid, ESPECIALLY when there are multiple difficulties? A DPS that won't improve and performs subpar doesn't belong in normal mode raids, and that's not being an elitist or anything that's the truth because there has to be SOME baseline assumption. You can think of it like organized sports: Normal is Minor League Baseball, Heroic is Major League Baseball, and Flex is the social league with friends that actually has some kind of team rankings (say a work league) and LFR is like a group playing a kinda sorta version of softball amongst themselves without really caring about how well anyone plays because it's all in good fun (maybe a good analogy would be a group of kids on the playground, where you aren't being competitive just having fun, with "that one kid" saying how great he is because he was Little League champion and you all suck at the game etc.)
    1) It obviously has more presence and bearing and yes gravitas if the developers call it like it is instead of living in denial.

    2) Well no that would mean YOU (and I ) aren't normal. If everyone or near everyone is bad then bad really is the new normal. Congratulations you are an exceptional player. I mean I cleared tot on Normal but I did it after the nerfs and a couple months into the tier already. does that make me normal? If it really is about a standard and not relative to everyone else in the game then the standard itself (and the people who set it) are gaming snobs with unrealistic expectations because you CANNOT separate the standard from the people it applies to. Ultimately everyone will view it and say well your normal or your not.

    Normal is not minor league baseball. It would better to be said that normal is your semi organized beer league and elite or whatever comes after normal is minor league softball and heroic is the major leagues. I mean it is really high minded BS because ultimately it's just basically game snobbery. Everyone is "bad" (although if everyone is bad then bad is the new normal) and the rest of us are normal and above normal while all those bads (who are once again seemingly a HUGE majority of the player base) are just what filth? bads? Like the very idea that you want to create or accept a standard that sets you SOOOOO FAR APART from what everybody else in the game is either capable or wiling to accomplish doesn't suggest even just a mild form of elitism to you? I'm not using that in a pejorative sense either btw it's just that the scale is so obviously out of whack. The standard for normal ought to have some bearing relative to the population as a whole otherwise it ultimately ceases to become relevant and really is just snobbery at that point. From a business perspective this is an even more obvious desideratum. If everyone is bad as you say or most players are bad as you say and telling almost all of them that normal isn't for them well then even on a subconscious level it will only work to undermine their ego gratification. Ultimately it will undermine their willingness to stay with the game.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-09-07 at 11:07 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  17. #737
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    The community rarely acts as a whole. While in fact normals are massively overtuned you hear quite a small vocal subset who insist everything is fine and people just suck. I'm glad you wouldn't care, your still not providing an argument for why the name shouldn't be changed just that it's meaningless. Well if it's so meaningless then the name can be changed with no problem. Now obviously it's not meaningless to everyone so the change will be made with some teeth gnashing because ultimately the naming conventions DO MATTER, it's why they exist.
    Because the difficulty of 25man normals hasn't changed, and that of 10man normals has been brought up to 25man normals of wrath. Since that's when the term has been coined, and the difficulty hsan't changed, it's still relevant. If you feel they're harder, you either did content after it was nerfed, overgearing it, or on the old 10mans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    In the first place people aren't interested in how it works "anywhere", in fact they play Warcraft primarily to escape "anywhere" (i.e the real world). To expect them to also have to come home and find out their escape is now another job is pretty lame way to spend 15 bucks a month. Secondly nobody is actually providing less effort. The guy who can only play 2 hours a week is providing a tremendous amount of effort FOR HIM. Once again that's relative to. However he gets the SHAFT this expansion because some of you can play for so much longer and put in so much more "effort". Finally less effort ought to reward more than it currently does even if it doesn't reward everything it ought to give out alot more.
    It's not a job, it's meant to be a game. Is progressing (although not as fast as heroic raiders) your character not fun to you? The game isn't meant for you. If you're replying to me with "why do you care casuals get that", I'll reply you "why do you care if your progression isn't as powerful given it's still progression"? You're still comparing to other people, just in the opposite way.
    Also, I see 2 hours a week as a pretty extreme time schedule. Most people consider casuals people that play half a hour to a hour per day, on a not consistent schedule. And if you see 2 hours as a fine schedule, Heroic Scenarios are aimed just at that. It's not like you were going to do more than one dungeon per day on that schedule anyways.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    No they don't unsubscribe after one month because for many of those casual players one month isn't enough to get any real progress anyway it certainly wasn't in cataclysm but definitely isn't in mists. In fact it's so bad now that you get far less for your time invested then you did since basically tbc. For a casual player the time you can spend in game is worth alot less then it was in Cataclysm. The people who don unsubscribe are basically the people who play 20+ hours anyway and those folks well you can't keep them. The game cannot be sustained on their backs and you can't sate their playstyle anyway. The developers tried this expansion and well people still unsub around patches.
    Of course it was in Cataclysm if you exclude raiding. Heck, a random heroic took 10 minutes queue + 20 minutes for the actual dungeon (one per day as a casual), and in 30 runs you were pretty much decked out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    The 4 difficulties argument is a different story altogether. It's another facet of this incredibly poor design. The poor design that leaves NO alternative (for casual or hardcore) player that isn't raiding. For hardcores this is piss poor because well I mean your gonna do the raid on normal, having to do the EXACT SAME RAID as catch up is fucking terrible. For casuals well raiding as a whole even lfr is just terrible. Basically it's an economic concern that has been forced upon the player base. In cataclysm people were foresaking raiding and even the world so that just can't happen. People just have to be FORCED to get the most use out of the content the fun behind it not mattering one bit.
    Running the previous raid then, nobody is forcing you into LFR. Don't have time to raid? You won't experience the content twice because you won't be raiding the new content either. People were avoiding raiding because those which didn't have a strict time schedule couldn't constantly attend them. Dragon Soul saw a MASSIVE increase in raid partecipation due to the introduction of LFR.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    The name and the genre are meaningless in so far as people playing by and large are concerned. They are not consciously aware of the fact that they are playing an mmo when they are playing it nor when they buy it. I know of almost no one who picks up the box and instead of looking at the cool dragon or elf or whatever looks ferociously for the genre and says oh good mmo phew for a second I was worried one of the Os was missing. The name is meaningless in the same way you think the word NORMAL is just a perception. It's simple a convention that can be ignored.
    What's World of Warcraft? Official Battle.net. Of course they know, unless they randomly buy games without informing themselves. The difference between the words normal and massive multiplayer online is that one is a qualitative adjective meaning you can interpret it in various ways, while the second one is an exact definition. When you start going out of the subjective area and go into the objective area those conventions do serve a purpose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    I'm glad you get good ques. That's not a universal situation by any means not does it mean the runs will necesarilly go fast or be rewarding. The experience is probably the opposite. Lots of time spent for little gain, the exact opposite of cataclysm and very uncasual friendly. Very un player friendly really.
    Queues are battlegroup related. If you're getting bad queues, I'd blame it on the battlegroups population (which I do see as a problem, mind you) and not on the system using the queue itself. And we have always been there about providing time efficient rewards not being lucrative for developers.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by tussee View Post
    So you don't want people with less time on their hands to play the game?
    You want it all for yourself right?

    WoW may not be the game for you.

    If LFR/flex/Heroic wasn't there ane we went back to vanilla style, you wouldn't be able to get two chances at the Tier and Trinkets.
    Luckily for you they are here.

    You have two shots at the better gear.
    I only have one (As I don't have the time/can't plan ahead when to raid) Which is LFR.
    I even have to wait a week after you had one reset.

    [sarcasm]That's not fair. Remove Heroic, Normal and Flex[/sarcasm]
    Sharing a lockout would be a fine solution for me. Everyone gets their content, everyone's happy. I never said developers shouldn't have introduced flex or lfr and if you think otherwise I'd like you to quote me on that.
    Last edited by Fluorescent0; 2013-09-07 at 11:12 PM.
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  18. #738
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    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    What you keep missing is that people want to raid. No one *wants* to sit. It's not that people who don't like to sit want to have the raid called vs rotating, but they would prefer to raid vs sit (what raider wouldn't?).

    Up to now, that option simply has not been there. But now, that option is available. Normal mode guilds do not any longer have to rotate people in and out, they can choose to raid Flex. If someone would rather raid than sit (and again, who wouldn't?) they can continue to rotate in and out or they can a) get their normal mode raid to go flex or b) they can leave and join a flex raid. I'd argue that, since Flex and Normal don't share lockouts, that they can raid Flex even outside of the guild and then rotate into their normal mode raid too, but for some people that ends up being too many nights of raiding.

    Now, a heroic guild won't move from heroic to flex just to avoid rotating because their mindset is to progress against the highest challenge. Everyone who joins a heroic raiding guild buys into this... they still would all prefer to raid, but they realize that it might be best to rotate people based on the needs of a given fight or to make sure everyone is geared. But normal mode guilds don't raid for the same reasons. Progression isn't as important to most of them, especially the ones who barely clear a tier while it's current (or who don't clear it). I don't mean that they don't want to kill things... but it's not as important as it is to heroic guilds.

    So, say you're a normal mode guild. You're in the middle of the pack of those guilds... you might have cleared ToT, perhaps you didn't even do that. You've been rotating people, etc. You have 12-17 people... someone asks "Hey, instead of having people sit, why don't we just raid flex in 5.4?" For a heroic guild the reason is easy - 'we want to raid at the highest level possible... that's the reason we exist.' For the normal mode guild I just described... the reason not to move to flex is a lot less obvious.

    One final point - some social, normal mode guilds can end up with 15-18 people who'd like to raid. It's WAY harder to rotate those into one 10 man raid. If you're at 18 you can recruit and get 2 10s going... but you really need another 6 people, not another 2 so you again have backups. If you're at 14-16 it's harder... you need almost another 8-10 people to make a viable second 10 man raid, but you have far too many to easily rotate. Flex also solves this quite neatly... instead of having to recruit people, deal with the drama of two 10 mans ("Why am I not on the better 10 man?") etc... just take your 14, 16 or 18 person raid into Flex. FAR easier, especially for the RLs and others who have to deal with all of this.

    PS: The thread on the official forums about delaying LFR was a bit silly but Bashiok did his normal bullshit and completely ignored the subtopic in there about Flex. Delaying LFR makes sense. Gating Flex even makes sense... but gating Flex so that the last two wings are released every 2 weeks vs every week does not make sense. They should just release a wing of flex every week from the first week so that it's completely out by the 4th week.

    I actually do get what you're saying, or part of it. I get that people would rather raid than sit for obvious reasons, we all want to raid (unless it's boring farm bosses we don't need loot from). What I'm trying to wrap my head around, is whether or not some of the Normal mode guilds with a roster too large for a 10 man group i.e 15-17 people but too small for a 25 man or 2x 10 man groups, will give up the hopes of progressing in Normal all together.

    I don't have the answer and I don't have the experience with these sorts of guilds. I did have a friend who was the GM of a very casual guild and I helped them during DS on an alt. He had to disband the guild, cause he couldn't get people to sign/show up for raids and he couldn't recruit either. For a guild like his, I suspect that going Flex and then just pug, would have been the obvious choice, had Flex existed back then.

    But I'm a bit baffled that you (and others to a much larger extend) believe that Flex will more or less be the end of 10 man Normal guilds. Cause even if you don't have the time, skill or desire to progress beyond Normal modes, would those players not have any goals other than "raiding" and getting loot? I mean, don't some 10 man Normal guilds want to improve, want to try to clear the content while it's current, want the rewards for doing something that's harder than Flex and LFR?

    OT: The reason behind Flex being even more gated, they actually also discussed in Legendary and I have to agree with them. If you don't hold off some of the easier content, those who have no intentions of progressing beyond Flex will have cleared "their" content after a few weeks and then what? Also, as the Legendary crew mentioned (Bashiok has mentioned it as well), it's not really cool that the biggest bad ass boss in the Tier falls over after 4 weeks. That was OT anyways.
    Last edited by Danishpsycho; 2013-09-07 at 11:16 PM.

  19. #739
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluorescent0 View Post
    Because the difficulty of 25man normals hasn't changed, and that of 10man normals has been brought up to 25man normals of wrath. Since that's when the term has been coined, and the difficulty hsan't changed, it's still relevant. If you feel they're harder, you either did content after it was nerfed, overgearing it, or on the old 10mans.



    It's not a job, it's meant to be a game. Is progressing (although not as fast as heroic raiders) your character not fun to you? The game isn't meant for you. If you're replying to me with "why do you care casuals get that", I'll reply you "why do you care if your progression isn't as powerful given it's still progression"? You're still comparing to other people, just in the opposite way.
    Also, I see 2 hours a week as a pretty extreme time schedule. Most people consider casuals people that play half a hour to a hour per day, on a not consistent schedule. And if you see 2 hours as a fine schedule, Heroic Scenarios are aimed just at that. It's not like you were going to do more than one dungeon per day on that schedule anyways.



    Of course it was in Cataclysm if you exclude raiding. Heck, a random heroic took 10 minutes queue + 20 minutes for the actual dungeon (one per day as a casual), and in 30 runs you were pretty much decked out.



    Running the previous raid then, nobody is forcing you into LFR. Don't have time to raid? You won't experience the content twice because you won't be raiding the new content either. People were avoiding raiding because those which didn't have a strict time schedule couldn't constantly attend them. Dragon Soul saw a MASSIVE increase in raid partecipation due to the introduction of LFR.



    What's World of Warcraft? Official Battle.net. Of course they know, unless they randomly buy games without informing themselves. The difference between the words normal and massive multiplayer online is that one is a qualitative adjective meaning you can interpret it in various ways, while the second one is an exact definition. When you start going out of the subjective area and go into the objective area those conventions do serve a purpose.



    Queues are battlegroup related. If you're getting bad queues, I'd blame it on the battlegroups population (which I do see as a problem, mind you) and not on the system using the queue itself. And we have always been there about providing time efficient rewards not being lucrative for developers.
    Actually the difficulty has changed even for 25 mans (they are far more complex then they were in bc or in wrath) but even if not you said it yourself the 10 man difficulty has changed soooooooo normals are not the normals they were in the past. The difficulty has changed, even if it's just because their characters are so much more complicated to play now, the name ought to change with it.

    Because it's obviously all relative. If it were entirely a single player game it might not matter but for you who has everything it really ought not to matter what the lowly casual plebian scrub gets and in all honesty from the developers standpoint it ought to matter what the casual gets seeing as how their are far more of him then you. 2 hours a week is fairly casual. Heroic scenarios award jack shit unfortunately. That same two hours a week in cataclysm garnered me much more.

    No it wasn't. For casual players cataclysm was perfect, it was not fit for people riding ont he back fo the casual wave though. Look at it this way if you play 20+ hours and have like 6 or 7 alts that's probably about right for where a casual player will get in terms of pacing. It means you devored content but your playstyle isn't sustainable anyway not without loosing millions more players in the process at any rate. The developers have become increasingly conservative in this regard and you may very well get that. We'll see.


    Of course Dragon Soul saw a massive increase in raid participation. You could que for it. Were you expecting it wouldn't? Especially since they put tier pieces and tonnes of other gear EXPLICITLY behind lfr. This was exacerbated in mists and yea of course when you shove all the reward behidn something people are gonna do that one thing. Like the developers claimed people were doing with dungeons. Just that it was effecient but not fun. Well LFR is effecient is it fun? Why would I run the previous raid? effecient but not fun remember? It would be nice if the stuff outside of the raid was almost or as effecient as the raid as well that way I really could have diversity of content, not just lip service.

    People do buy games without informing themselves all the time. But even if they look at the web page do you think the first thing they see is MMORPG? Do you think while their killing some mob or casting some spell they are consciously and actively aware it's an mmorpg? do you think they care? it matters that much to people? I tend to doubt it. That's why the label is meaningless ultimately.

    Bad ques are bad ques period. Sitting around waiting an hour to que is not casual friendly. spending 3 hours to clear an lfr is not casual friendly.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-09-07 at 11:44 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  20. #740
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Actually the difficulty has changed even for 25 mans (they are far more complex then they were in bc or in wrath) but even if not you said it yourself the 10 man difficulty has changed soooooooo normals are not the normals they were in the past. The difficulty has changed, the name ought to change with it.
    BC had one difficulty so that doesn't matter to define what normals were in the past, the term was coined in wrath (ulduar unofficially and toc officially) and that's the content it should be compared to. If you did the content while overgearing/it was nerfed I'm kinda sure you feel the difference, but it was pretty much the same while undergeared/properly geared and unnerfed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Because it's obviously all relative. If it were entirely a single player game it might not matter but for you who has everything it really ought not to matter what the lowly casual plebian scrub gets and in all honesty from the developers standpoint it ought to matter what the casual gets seeing as how their are far more of him then you. 2 hours a week is fairly casual. Heroic scenarios award jack shit unfortunately. That same two hours a week in cataclysm garnered me much more.
    How so? The acquisition rate is diminished (and not by much if we're talking two hours a week) but the gear is greatly improved (516, or almost normal current tier, againist normal previous tier). The two balance out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    No it wasn't. For casual players cataclysm was perfect, it was not fit for people riding ont he back fo the casual wave though. Look at it this way if you play 20+ hours and have like 6 or 7 alts that's probably about right for where a casual player will get in terms of pacing. It means you devored content but your playstyle isn't sustainable anyway not without loosing millions more players in the process at any rate. The developers have become increasingly conservative in this regard and you may very well get that. We'll see.
    One dungeon per day, averagely one drop every two dungeons (with early ones giving more as you miss everything and later ones the opposite). Sounds pretty fair to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Of course Dragon Soul saw a massive increase in raid participation. You could que for it. Were you expecting it wouldn't? Especially since they put tier pieces and tonnes of other gear EXPLICITLY behind lfr. This was exacerbated in mists and yea of course when you shove all the reward behidn something people are gonna do that one thing. Like the developers claimed people were doing with dungeons. Just that it was effecient but not fun. Well LFR is effecient is it fun? Why would I run the previous raid? effecient but not fun remember? It would be nice if the stuff outside of the raid was almost or as effecient as the raid as well that way I really could have diversity of content, not just lip service.
    Why isn't raiding previous content fun? (as in normals of the previous content) Is it because they're previous content? They're still content you haven't seen so I don't get the issue. As for LFR not being enjoyable, I agree but that's an LFR problem and not a raiding model problem, quite a substantial difference once again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    People do buy games without informing themselves all the time. But even if they look at the web page do you think the first thing they see is MMORPG? Do you think while their killing some mob or casting some spell they are consciously and actively aware it's an mmorpg? do you think they care? it matters that much to people? I tend to doubt it. That's why the label is meaningless ultimately.
    As a developer I'd rather design my game about people who make an informed decision because they're the ones most likely to stick with the game in the first place. And knowing and constantly thinking about it are two different things. Heck, you can do a lot of things solo actually, just don't expect to do high end stuff because that means you're invested in the game and therefore should be invested in its genre too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Bad ques are bad ques period. Sitting around waiting an hour to que is not casual friendly. spending 3 hours to clear an lfr is not casual friendly.
    Again, I said it's not an LFR system problem but a battlegroup population problem. I agree, it's a problem, but you're saying LFR is the cause while it's not, it's the population and the way the queue system works.

    Heck, I'm playing an online pool game at the moment. Should I complain that I'm getting beaten because I don't play it a lot and therefore it isn't casual friendly? If not, where do you draw the line?
    Last edited by Fluorescent0; 2013-09-07 at 11:49 PM.
    Fluorescent - Fluo - currently retired, playing other stuff

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