Republicans blame Obama for poor Katrina response

[NYC17]

My arguement is it was not a big deal decision, and history has shown many decisions to violate states integrity for our own political and military needs from Presidents on an almost normal basis since WWII. I hardly consider the decision to attack Bin Ladin to be more complex than invading Iraq, Afghanistan, or Grenada, the enforcement of no fly zones, the huge number of covert operations throughout SE Asia, the intentional baiting of Libya in the 1980s, and on and on...

There's a vast difference between "big decision" and "ground shaking decision". It was a big decision. It had potentially disastrous ramifications. Your unwillingness to acknowledge them really isn't pertinent to the actuality.

Full scale invasions aren't really comparable to the Bin Laden raid, but if you insist...The difference between Iraq/Afghanistan and the Bin Laden raid? Seems like more careful thought and planning went into the raid. I guess president's make different decisions afterall...

[Kellhound]

There's a vast difference between "big decision" and "ground shaking decision". It was a big decision. It had potentially disastrous ramifications. Your unwillingness to acknowledge them really isn't pertinent to the actuality.

Full scale invasions aren't really comparable to the Bin Laden raid, but if you insist...The difference between Iraq/Afghanistan and the Bin Laden raid? Seems like more careful thought and planning went into the raid...

The ramifications of failure: Loss of a Seal team (worst ramification), tipping Bin Laden off we were on to him, pissing the Pakistan Army off (which we did anyway), and the hit to our prestige for failing.

Yet invasion is far more dangerous than a raid. And I didn't say the invasions were well thought out either. I knew we were going to screw-up in Iraq before we even invaded.

Perhaps part of the issue is in meaning, when I say it wasn't big, I mean it wasn't one that few President's would take. It was important, yes, but not a bragging point. Bragging goes to the people who tracked him down and those that conducted the raid.

[DirkDiggler]

Sorry, but when it comes to stupidity, nothing will ever top the democrat congressman that said Guam will tip over and capsize due to overpopulation.

[NYC17]

The ramifications of failure: Loss of a Seal team (worst ramification), tipping Bin Laden off we were on to him, pissing the Pakistan Army off (which we did anyway), and the hit to our prestige for failing.

Yet invasion is far more dangerous than a raid. And I didn't say the invasions were well thought out either. I knew we were going to screw-up in Iraq before we even invaded. You described it as a formality. It was much more than a formality. The only claim you have to it being a formality is your pure speculation that other presidents would make the same decision...based on nothing.

Perhaps part of the issue is in meaning, when I say it wasn't big, I mean it wasn't one that few President's would take. It was important, yes, but not a bragging point. Bragging goes to the people who tracked him down and those that conducted the raid.

The way the raid was planned the SEAL team was not going to be lost. They had backup ready to roll in if necessary. It had potential to create a rather significant international incident.

I really don't care about bragging rights. The only purpose arguing them serves is to trivialize the decision that was made. As important as the analysts and those that conducted the raid were, it doesn't happen without an order. That order was not a formality.

[Rukentuts]

The ramifications of failure: Loss of a Seal team (worst ramification), tipping Bin Laden off we were on to him, pissing the Pakistan Army off (which we did anyway), and the hit to our prestige for failing.

Yet invasion is far more dangerous than a raid. And I didn't say the invasions were well thought out either. I knew we were going to screw-up in Iraq before we even invaded.

Perhaps part of the issue is in meaning, when I say it wasn't big, I mean it wasn't one that few President's would take. It was important, yes, but not a bragging point. Bragging goes to the people who tracked him down and those that conducted the raid.

If the Pakistanis were going to go after the SEALs we were ready to fuck them up and maybe start something.

[NYC17]

Sorry, but when it comes to stupidity, nothing will ever top the democrat congressman that said Guam will tip over and capsize due to overpopulation.

I would think saying that a woman's body has a way to "shut down" pregnancy resulting from rape easily tops that...but whatever.

[Payday]

Sorry, but when it comes to stupidity, nothing will ever top the democrat congressman that said Guam will tip over and capsize due to overpopulation.

This may actually be the dumbest thing ever said by a congressman. At least Akin and Mordoch had a vested interest in saying what they said.. the Guam thing..not so much.

[Kellhound]

The way the raid was planned the SEAL team was not going to be lost. They had backup ready to roll in if necessary. It had potential to create a rather significant international incident.

I really don't care about bragging rights. The only purpose arguing them serves is to trivialize the decision that was made. As important as the analysts and those that conducted the raid were, it doesn't happen without an order. That order was not a formality.

Any military action risks the loss of life, that is always the greatest risk.
It did cause an incident, just like the drone strikes have done. The key being Pakistan was not in a position to really react strongly. Am I saying it wasn't one of the biggest decisions in US history? Yes I am, I don't think it's even the biggest decision the President has made while he has been in office.

[NYC17]

Any military action risks the loss of life, that is always the greatest risk.
It did cause an incident, just like the drone strikes have done. The key being Pakistan was not in a position to really react strongly. Am I saying it wasn't one of the biggest decisions in US history? Yes I am, I don't think it's even the biggest decision the President has made while he has been in office.

Any military action risks the loss of life...yet the nature of the action to be taken defines the degree of difficulty and likelihood of loss of life. There are other factors which you don't accept as raising the stakes, but that's fine. Your acceptance of them doesn't really matter.

You seem to have your own scale for grading presidential decisions, so I'm lost. Is not being his biggest presidential decision synonymous with something being a formality or...?

[Kellhound]

If the Pakistanis were going to go after the SEALs we were ready to fuck them up and maybe start something.

That we were prepared to go to great lengths to extract the team, should things have gone south, doesn't negate that the loss of the team was the biggest potential ramification of failure, which sadly came to pass in 2011 when many of the SEALs involved in the raid were killed in Afghanistan when their helicopter went down.

[NYC17]

That we were prepared to go to great lengths to extract the team, should things have gone south, doesn't negate that the loss of the team was the biggest potential ramification of failure, which sadly came to pass in 2011 when many of the SEALs involved in the raid were killed in Afghanistan when their helicopter went down.

It was the same SEAL team, but not the same team members.

[Kellhound]

Any military action risks the loss of life...yet the nature of the action to be taken defines the degree of difficulty and likelihood of loss of life. There are other factors which you don't accept as raising the stakes, but that's fine. Your acceptance of them doesn't really matter.

You seem to have your own scale for grading presidential decisions, so I'm lost. Is not being his biggest presidential decision synonymous with something being a formality or...?

I am fully aware of all the stakes involved, I just don't give them the weight you do. It was largely a domestic issue played out on the international stage. The true risks and rewards were domestic, the issues between the US and Pakistan far exceed the raid, before and after.

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It was the same SEAL team, but not the same team members.

No, SEALs that were part of the strike were on the helicopter. A full accounting will hopefully never get out though on which SEALs actually took part in the strike though.

[NYC17]

I am fully aware of all the stakes involved, I just don't give them the weight you do. It was largely a domestic issue played out on the international stage. The true risks and rewards were domestic, the issues between the US and Pakistan far exceed the raid, before and after.

- - - Updated - - -



No, SEALs that were part of the strike were on the helicopter. A full accounting will hopefully never get out though on which SEALs actually took part in the strike though.

No, once again you are incorrect.

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread917873/pg1

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/08...icopter-crash/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_920147.html

Here's a story a year later reinforcing that fact.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1751470.html

[Kellhound]

"It is unclear how many of the 22 SEALS who died that summer were part of the bin Laden operation in Pakistan. One source said there were at least a couple who were involved in both." http://thehill.com/homenews/house/31...hal-seal-crash



"We don't believe that any of the special operators who were killed were involved in the bin Laden operation," a senior U.S. military official told Fox News."


I will concede I should have used "some", not "many" however.

[NYC17]

"It is unclear how many of the 22 SEALS who died that summer were part of the bin Laden operation in Pakistan. One source said there were at least a couple who were involved in both." http://thehill.com/homenews/house/31...hal-seal-crash



"We don't believe that any of the special operators who were killed were involved in the bin Laden operation," a senior U.S. military official told Fox News."

Yes, they didn't believe...at that time because it was early reporting and could not confirm. It has since been confirmed. Check the dates instead of skimming articles for things you think reinforce your rather flimsy argument.

So basically, now your counter argument boils down to that ONE unnamed source of "thehill" says maybe a couple were involved. Funny that you ignored the AP source that said explicitly that none were involved. Almost like you needed the vagueness of the early Foxnews report in order for your argument to hold any water

So. Fuckin. Weird.

This is such simple shit. How do you not understand?

[Kellhound]

Yes, they didn't believe...at that time because it was early reporting and could not confirm. It has since been confirmed. Check the dates instead of skimming articles for things you think reinforce your rather flimsy argument.

So basically, now your counter argument boils down to that ONE unnamed source of "thehill" says maybe a couple were involved. Funny that you ignored the AP source that said explicitly that none were involved. Almost like you needed the vagueness of the early Foxnews report in order for your argument to hold any water

So. Fuckin. Weird.

This is such simple shit. How do you not understand?

The AP actually doesnt name a source, it just makes a statement. And we all know the AP never makes an error (or is lied to).

I am, however, willing in this case (given the nature of it) to say I cannot prove it.

[NYC17]

The AP actually doesnt name a source, it just makes a statement. And we all know the AP never makes an error (or is lied to).

I am, however, willing in this case (given the nature of it) to say I cannot prove it.

Their reporting is based off of the info the U.S. military provided.

Error or not, even if we pretend like an unnamed and unverified source who claims to have knowledge of an event is credible, it in no way confirms your original statement that SEAL members who participated in the Bin laden raid died in that crash.

[THE Bigzoman]

i'm baffled by that as well. Fun fact, guys: Fema tried to send preemptive help to louisiana. They declined it. No matter how much the name george bush inflames your anus, you can't rightly blame him for not helping enough when the local government was actively trying to block that help (pro tip: The best time to provide disaster relief is before, not after the disaster)

damn you kanye west!

[Kellhound]

Their reporting is based off of the info the U.S. military provided.

Error or not, even if we pretend like an unnamed and unverified source who claims to have knowledge of an event is credible, it in no way confirms your original statement that SEAL members who participated in the Bin laden raid died in that crash.

The problem with completely confirming or disproving the accusation that so many SEAL Team Six members have died is that the U.S. military typically does not disclose which units special forces members work on, even after their deaths. In interviews with MSN News, spokespeople at the U.S. Navy, Pentagon and Special Operations Command (SOCOM) each refused to comment on the BeforeItsNews article or the claim that 25 members of the Bin Laden raid team have died.

UPDATE:

U.S. Special Operations Command spokesman Col. Tim Nye tells MSN News that military policy makes it almost impossible to publicly confirm the number of SEALs killed from a particular unit.

"We have certain units that are classified and when individuals of those units die we follow all of the (Department of Defense) regulations of U.S. law; we announce the deaths, but we do not by practice give the classified organizations out," Nye says. "So we don't have a list of who are all our classified guys and who's alive and who's not."

Or to translate, I can't prove I'm right, and you can't prove you are right, but I have at least admitted to that fact. Particularly given the politics involved in it.

[xuros]

Backwater states with a poor level of education like Louisiana, is anyone surprised? Not me.
Title should reflect it is a survey in one single state though not GOP'ies as a whole even though I dont doubt it is the same result in most of the south.

I have a masters in chemical engineering. How about you? No republicans blame Noboma that i know of. ( yes i was directly affected with over 18ft of water in my 250k home) How can he be to blame if he wasn't President? Now that its settled, how about you go yank a baby out with a coat hanger or something.