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  1. #1

    5.4 STAT WEIGHTS [Resto 10 man]

    So, big buffs incoming, which also means big changes, which for me at least will mean a new reforge/gem.

    I have up until now been running a heavy haste 8882/crit(around 7k) build with low spirit 8k

    With he changes to healing rain, turning in to our far most superior heal, on any encounter most likely, and the RS talent + chain heal changes, there is no doubt that i will put intellect at the top of my priority (have been gemming pure secondaries lately.)

    Now my wonder is where do we go from here, seeing as chain heal and HST(being smart heals), will play a giant role in our throughput, i think i am gonna ditch crit completely, as it has no interaction with Healing rain, non with HST, and poor interaction with chain heal.

    What are your thought / experience on this? and might the sha of pride trinket even swing things back in favor of crit? -


    ps. i see a dark scenario where BIS geared shamans use Sha of pride trinket, together with the equivalent DPS stats booster and use insane HR break points in 25 man. 22k'ish perhaps ?
    Last edited by Alejandro; 2013-08-19 at 12:41 PM. Reason: Horrible miss types

  2. #2
    Spirit until you have enough > haste to hr breakpoint (7600ish) > crit > more spirit > more haste > mastery.

    That is what i will planning tousse on the fight that i will heal.

    Mastery remains horrible and haste outside breakpoints tends be less good than crit.
    It's the internet. You never know if people are either sarcastic or just bad.

  3. #3
    Here is what I would guess happens to stat weights for 10 man in 5.4

    1. Spirit becomes more important and low Spirit builds lose viability. Chain Heal not degrading on jumps, and the Chaining glyph only having a 2 second CD (which will make it mandatory on fights where without it, you can't effective use CH) means that Chain Heal will almost always be the best filler spell to use over single target direct heals. This means that your mana consumption will go up, your Resurgence gains go down, and you need to run at a higher Spirit level to maintain optimal spell usage. The Riptide mana cost reduction will help a bit, but I really think 10 man Resto Shaman will be going to 12,000+ Spirit builds next tier.

    2. Healing Rain haste breakpoints gain a lot of value - The 100% HR buff means that it should now be dropped on cooldown, even on single targets, and the buff and added viability of the spell means that it will become a much larger portion of 10 man output. You will probably want to gear similarly to 25 man Resto Shaman and go for the 7613 haste breakpoint initially and possibly go up to the 15,316 breakpoint at a higher gear level.

    3. Mastery will be even more useless than it currently is - With the legendary cloaks, and the overall buff to output, overhealing is likely to be higher than ever this tier. As a result, health pools will be even higher, and Mastery will be even more useless. We will still want to avoid the stat as much as possible.

    4. Crit probably stays at about the same value. Crit gains a bit of value when you drop the T15 4pc, but loses value from casting less single target heals (less resurgence mana gain). Crit probably has the same value as it did in 5.3.

  4. #4
    i'll be sticking with what i'm running now (10M): 10513 haste > spirit > crit > haste > mastery. i have about 14k spirit with this setup and i think the high haste will work well for mixing in more CH next patch.

  5. #5
    If 12k can even do it, on top if not having the regen we usually do form resurgance (to to casting less ST spells, due to cast more Healing rains, and unleach elements.) Chain heals doesnt interact with crit, nor does any of our other spells, that are deamed to control our throughput - hence crits calue will be greatly degraded in terms of actual throughput, and partially in mana returns hence i think i will be going for Int(scales with everything!)>spirit (until i am comfterable) Haste (7664 (8882 with Rushing streams)) >Mastery>crit The interesting factor is the last one, Mastery is amazing with smart heals due to the nature of the stat, on the other hand Crit is amazing with the new AMP trinkets - and Legendary cloak + AG due to overheal still having some effect. It is a tough one and probably greatly depends on raid comp, but the fact remains, that crit only scales with a fraction of our spells - Theese spells play a big role in our performance now - enough to justify it being a lackluster on Healing rain, but will they in the future ?

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Alejandro View Post
    If 12k can even do it, on top if not having the regen we usually do form resurgance (to to casting less ST spells, due to cast more Healing rains, and unleach elements.) Chain heals doesnt interact with crit, nor does any of our other spells, that are deamed to control our throughput - hence crits calue will be greatly degraded in terms of actual throughput, and partially in mana returns hence i think i will be going for Int(scales with everything!)>spirit (until i am comfterable) Haste (7664 (8882 with Rushing streams)) >Mastery>crit The interesting factor is the last one, Mastery is amazing with smart heals due to the nature of the stat, on the other hand Crit is amazing with the new AMP trinkets - and Legendary cloak + AG due to overheal still having some effect. It is a tough one and probably greatly depends on raid comp, but the fact remains, that crit only scales with a fraction of our spells - Theese spells play a big role in our performance now - enough to justify it being a lackluster on Healing rain, but will they in the future ?
    Chain heal and Healing Rain DO interact with crit they DON'T interact with Ancestral Awakening. Furthermore Chain heal Does interact with resurgence , each jump has its own chance to crit. Mana Regen is off the scale in 5.4 i don't think we are going to have any trouble.


    Our stat priority hasn't changed since the release of mop. Int>Spirit>Haste breakpoint>Crit>Mastery. Mastery has always been devalued due to practicality and base values but still remains a good stat for progression and a horrible stat for farm.

    Tiberria pretty much has it right. Go for the HR 7.6k haste breakpoint and pour the rest into spirit/crit.
    Last edited by shammypie; 2013-08-19 at 11:47 PM.

  7. #7
    I agree with Tiberria as well, and that's what I'll gear for, at least until I get in there and start healing and see if anything jumps out at me.

    One thing that was interesting to me about what Alejandro said, though, is I may go for that 8882 HST break point (plus a little extra for latency) since I'll probably be using Rushing Streams a lot. Just considering the fact that I raid Normal 25 man, not Heroic, and looking at our healing team make up, I seriously doubt I'm going to need 4 CD's very often. And since it's Normal, I'd rather gear around the talent I plan to take the most, and not worry about adjusting the gear when I take a different talent.

    If Normal gear levels allow me to go to 15316 and keep my regen up enough to offset it, I'll attempt that later in the tier, but ~9k I can already do now without too much trouble.

  8. #8
    Herald of the Titans Seriss's Avatar
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    I don't plan to change my gearing strategy.

    I like having lots of spirit despite raiding 10-man and not being a mana battery. And with casting HR practically on CD as soon as you get at least someone to stand in there for a moment or two, that seems like a good idea.

    I'll still be trying to rid myself of as much mastery as I can and will still attempt to get gear that has either haste or crit on them, and if I get too much haste (7613 will be good for a long time until our gear allows us significant jumps, I'd wager), it'll still be reforged into crit and not into that waste of item points that is mastery. That mastery is good for progression is a myth. Only because it's theoretically not quite as awful in those situations doesn't make it good all of a sudden. You should still stick to your usual priorities, no matter if progression or farm. Crit will always be superior.

    And I'll still be gemming spirit/haste in my yellow sockets, spirit in my blue ones and int/spirit in my red ones.
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  9. #9
    Well, you all seem pretty convinced with crit, i am not sure i follow your logic behind it quite yet, since our spell usage will be completely different in 5.4 - but we can bring it up comes 5.4 and results start ticking in

  10. #10
    It's mainly because haste is only useful up to certain breakpoints, and 7613 is the highest one we will reasonably hit until in near BiS gear, and something we will easily have going into 5.4. Mastery is completely useless, so Crit becomes the default secondary stat automatically once you are at the desired haste breakpoint and your Spirit comfort level.

  11. #11
    "mastery is completely useless" on what basis do you say this, in theory its a life safer with no RNG factor. It doesnt contribute to our overhealing and thereby not AG and Legendary cloak, but that is all i can see going against it really. and i can back up its performance in terms of pure numbers aswell. Both the highest performing 10 man resto shaman (shambulance - illidan) and 25 man sham (artlu) are giong heavy haste/mastery builds.


    And the absolute nature of mastery is beautiful, especially if it is as a supliment to a int/haste heavy build - atleast i hope that people agree, that the days of gemming pure haste/crit are over. Int WILL be superior, and if you argue against this, i shall be dazzled.

    Mainly, all theese claims about mastery being useless, im not sure i get it. We are largely a reactive healer specc, if you fill this role correctly, you will have lightning reflexes pumping out thoose big heavy heals - and if theese arent needed, you will msot likely jsut be spamming HW in which case, who cares about throughput? The matter of the fact is that matery becomes usefull when needed! not in the remaining 90% passiveness of the fight.

  12. #12
    Herald of the Titans Seriss's Avatar
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    You seem to think that our way of healing will change significantly due to the buffs we have received.

    Well, I know that my own healing style will not change at all, aside from perhaps actually using the chainheal glyph for a few encounters this time around.

    Anything else just makes our spells better for the situations that they were designed to be good at. I still won't throw a healing rain at my feet to do the job that a Riptide could have done.

    We're not going to be turning into UL-HR bots for our 10-mans only because HR's output on a single target that remains in it for its full duration is greater than a GHW. Encounters are dynamic. If there's constantly damage incoming, yes, placing down a healing rain is good, maybe you can squeeze 3-4 people into it when spread out and having to move out of tar and such as well. I tried that at Iron Juggernaut flex the other day. We played with 11 people. HR was barely usable for an encounter such as this. As soon as it was down, tar came flying and people scattered, the more attentive ones of them, trying to still hover on the edge of healing rain so as to grab a bit of the healing. The scenario for Dark Shaman and Nazgrim looks about the same. Too much space to cover with the raid or too much movement and/or damage patterns that don't fit well with HR and the movement requirements.

    Chain heal will probably see a bit more use, however, its long cast time is still unfortunate and will prevent it from being quite as overused as one might expect.

    I don't see how Rushing Streams could skew stat weights in mastery's favour.

    So what I want to say is: The buffs we get make us better at what we already do. They're not reworking us from the ground up. What worked for you so far will work for you even better now.

    Also, our mastery is good in a theoretical triage environment that Blizzard briefly touched upon in the beginning of Cata. Today, however, you have a raiding environment in which your "shaman mastery saved us all!" situations aren't supposed to happen in the first place and everyone does everything in their power to make our mastery entirely obsolete because you're not supposed to drop as low as our mastery wants you to drop. Shaman mastery goes against everything and anything that realistically happens in a raid. And those possible situations where our mastery isn't entirely useless for a brief moment happen extremely rarely due to absorbs, HoTs and raid-cds. I'd even go so far as to say that they must not happen in today's raids because they're designed to punish you severely when you're not full of HoTs and absorbs in the first place. Because every time you're not at full hp, you face death. It's true. You're not topped off? Tough luck, now you die. You want shaman mastery to be cool? Remove HoTs, remove absorbs and give me 20 seconds to solo-heal an entire 10-man raid from 5%-100% hp with single-target tidal-wave-buffed Healing Surges with some UL sprinkled in. Pity it doesn't happen.

    Edit: I also had some nice stuff typed up that went along the lines of us already having 39% mastery baseline and our heals being balanced around that and adding a bit to a stat that we already have much of doesn't make as big of a difference as adding something to a stat that we have little of what with those two stats interacting with each other to a degree as well, but my computer ate it and the short version of it doesn't sound as nifty.
    Last edited by Seriss; 2013-08-20 at 01:42 PM.
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  13. #13
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    Next patch I with 550+ ilvl and amp trinket I would suggest:

    Spirit: 15-17k Chain heal is 2 sec so you will have less HW downtime spam, There is a lot more damage in SoO so you need more mana to be able to spam the bigger heals
    Haste: 15316 Even with the RPPM nerf with Meta gem, Most trinkets not scaling with Haste the 100% Healing rain makes it worth it. If you go for the conductivity talent I am not sure but Healing rain will tick faster and I think it can still be good
    Crit: Overhealing redirected by legendary cloak, Each crit gives mana.
    Mastery: Maybe it will be worth it going Mastery in 5.4 because there is a lot more damage going out so people might spike lower when there is a lot of 200k+ AoE damage abilities. If the cloaks redirected healing is effected by Mastery screw crit and go all mastery

  14. #14
    Serisse hit the nail on the head, the patch isn't going to change the way we heal except for more frequent use of Chain Heal. The methodology each of us use to gear now will likely continue. It will vary depending on our raid comp; I imagine 25's will go for the 15k haste breakpoint, while people who have been successful stacking crit/int in 10 man's will likely continue to get the most out what they're currently doing.

    The extra mana regen needed to account for increased use of Chain Heal will likely be accounted for by the innate increase in spirit from higher item levels. It doesn't look like there are many options for any gear slot excluding trinkets where we can avoid spirit while also avoiding mastery. We'll be swimming in spirit. If crit performs best for us as a secondary stat it will continue to do so. Haste breakpoints will naturally increase with inflated item levels and the one which we choose to take will continue to vary just as it does now based on our raid makeup/platform. If mastery works for some people now because of their raid comp, it will likely continue to perform well for them, for the majority of us it will continue to be complete shit. Our mechanics aren't changing, don't count on our stat priorities being any different than they are now.

  15. #15
    15,316 haste is not going to be reasonably reachable until close to full ilvl 566 heroic gear. It is technically reachable in 550 gear now, but you would have to drop so much INT and Spirit to get to that level (it would require pretty much pure haste gemming and reforging out of the highest non haste stat on every piece of gear) that it would be a throughput loss to go to it. It will probably need the amp trinket to reasonably reach it, and is probably not worth gemming pure haste to get there unless it's just a few gems to bring you over the top.

    The legendary cloak actually decreases the value of mastery, because even if it is affected by mastery (not clear yet), if there is that amount of overhealing to be redistributed in the first place, it's almost certain that people are at 90%+ HP. Even if it's affected, the type of healing that is redistributed is healing that would gain very little from mastery in the first place.

    Also, with the nerfs to the proc rate of the legendary cloak, it is now only about 5% of your healing. And, that was before they applied the Shaman specific proc rate that brought it down even further from 0.58 to 0.41. It won't be more than 3%-5% on most fights.

  16. #16
    Some people here need to understand that you can't go batshit crazy reaching five digit haste breakpoints if you sacrifice too much of your other stats (int, crit, spirit). It's mostly a matter of having the right ilvl and itemization.

  17. #17
    As long as the meta gem keeps proccin' and magma totem still costs 30k mana ill be stacking crit and haste, thank you....

    Of course Tibee will tell me how wrong I am but the numbers will continue to be too ludicrous to ignore because of how our mechanics work

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Gendori View Post
    As long as the meta gem keeps proccin' and magma totem still costs 30k mana ill be stacking crit and haste, thank you....

    Of course Tibee will tell me how wrong I am but the numbers will continue to be too ludicrous to ignore because of how our mechanics work
    And I think that build will gimp you in 5.4, because the buff to Chain Heal significantly increases the opportunity cost of using GCDs on Totemic Recall and Magma Totem over just running at a higher Spirit levels and casting Chain Heal more often.

  19. #19
    What the hell are you babbling about with your magma totems?

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by ganiccus View Post
    What the hell are you babbling about with your magma totems?
    Probably casting it for free when the meta gem procs, then using Totemic Recall to get 30k mana back... essentially getting "free" mana, and using magma totem since it costs the most mana? That'd be my guess. I hadn't even thought to do that..

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