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  1. #1

    Blizzard does not balance hunter damage around the top 5% of players

    The quality of posts in this forum has dropped significantly over the past few weeks (no fault of the moderators) due to a perceived dislike of the hunter class by the developers and the belief (which is probably true) that hunter dps will be on the low end in 5.4 for progression guilds.

    I think this is mostly due to the inflated number of 13/13 HC players on this forum compared to the overall player population. They are only looking at this problem through a narrow prism.

    The hunters I see complaining the most are in guilds where everyone is of similar or equal skill. That is impossible to balance around unless Blizzard wants to make every class a virtual clone of each other.

    If they did somehow manage to balance all the classes around just the top 5% of players, then the classes would be unbalanced for the remaining 95%.

    Why?

    Because some classes require significantly more skill in order to reach the theoretical output limit.

    Some classes, like hunters, can put out 80+% of their max potential damage with just moderate skill and knowledge of the class. This is due to almost no movement penalty, no DoTs to pay attention to (SS is auto refreshed and BA is just used on cooldown) and very few dps cooldowns.

    Other classes, Warlocks/Boomkins/Etc, require much more skill to hit 80% of their potential. DoTs, movement issues, cooldowns, special resources to watch/etc.....

    Now, when we start talking about these top 5% of guilds/players, they are pretty much playing at max potential. Top ranked players don't have issues with movement or watching DoTs... So, those classes that are harder to max out, suddenly start pulling away and making hunters worry about losing raid slots.


    Yes, this is a problem, but not one that can be fixed easily if at all (class homogenization might be the only way).

    It cannot be fixed easily because Blizzard balances dps around those players who are progressing through normal modes and maybe a few months into the tier, heroics. The players who are less skilled..... The players who can make hunters compete easily for the top spots in damage done.



    TL;DR: Blizzard balances around players who are progressing through normals and heroics at an average pace as opposed to the players who full clear heroics within a month or two. Those "less skilled" players are able to get more out of classes that require less skill than other classes that are more difficult to master, leading to classes that are balanced for most people, but unbalanced for "elite" players.


    PS: Let's stop with the elitist shit. Just because you are 13/13 does not give you a right to just blatantly disregard someone else who you view as less skilled.

  2. #2
    Bloodsail Admiral Kissthebaby's Avatar
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    Then how come blizzard has had to buff hunter damage for the last 3 tiers months after the tier was released. I don't see it being any different this tier

  3. #3
    The Patient siegemaster's Avatar
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    First, what evidence do you have that Blizzard balances around the normal players?
    Secondly, I would hope that if this is true, which I seriously doubt, that you are wrong - It would be much better to balance around the 5% as the better you play the better your reward.
    Finally, and to repeat Kissthebaby, why do we need a buff to damage nearly every patch if we are being balanced around still progressing players?

    This coming from an average raider - http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...emaster/simple
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  4. #4
    Mechagnome Bad Ashe's Avatar
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    umm... you wouldnt WANT it balanced on the top 5%.

    if it was, the other 95% would be underperforming and not reaching potential by design.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Rackfu View Post
    The quality of posts in this forum has dropped significantly over the past few weeks (no fault of the moderators) due to a perceived dislike of the hunter class by the developers and the belief (which is probably true) that hunter dps will be on the low end in 5.4 for progression guilds.
    This is just your take. i think i read far better stuff in here than wow reg fórums.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rackfu View Post
    I think this is mostly due to the inflated number of 13/13 HC players on this forum compared to the overall player population. They are only looking at this problem through a narrow prism.
    dont agree with you here and i would not argue about this. i think game needs to be balanced at all levels but since that would be even harder to do it needs to be balanced at higher level and not low levels. on a low level guild your performance can be pretty good play w/e class you play, on a high end guild this isnt going to happen when you are playing with good players they will beat you everytime if your class isnt on par.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rackfu View Post
    The hunters I see complaining the most are in guilds where everyone is of similar or equal skill. That is impossible to balance around unless Blizzard wants to make every class a virtual clone of each other.
    read my last quote, is the same response.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rackfu View Post
    If they did somehow manage to balance all the classes around just the top 5% of players, then the classes would be unbalanced for the remaining 95%.
    you will hear now and then the "oh they just scale well" argument and the "we dont scale that well" once you get the gear, other than that the game would be really balanced because at max gear level or at least max gear level you get while progressing you will be capable of doing the same ammount of damage vs your guildies.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rackfu View Post
    Because some classes require significantly more skill in order to reach the theoretical output limit.
    this is your opinión on the hunter class nothing else. no one in here would make you change this view of the hunter class so i dont know why you even post this.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rackfu View Post
    Some classes, like hunters, can put out 80+% of their max potential damage with just moderate skill and knowledge of the class. This is due to almost no movement penalty, no DoTs to pay attention to (SS is auto refreshed and BA is just used on cooldown) and very few dps cooldowns.
    again your own take, i could tell you destruction is far easier than BM, pretty much other than balance druids and ferals i dont think any other class have all their dps baked into a 30 sec opener as bm does. sure is easy to go there play a wackamole and do good damage that dosnt mean you are doing it allright.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rackfu View Post
    Other classes, Warlocks/Boomkins/Etc, require much more skill to hit 80% of their potential. DoTs, movement issues, cooldowns, special resources to watch/etc.....
    you are way off, demo is pretty spot on, aff is the same, boomkins for sure are harder to dps with because all the min maxing but this dosnt mean isnt easy to hit that 80% because 20% is a huge gap if you used your numbers as random meassure thing i think you did it wrong.

    tbh a good dps in a class will do good in any class. there are things that most ppl dont get like u always are casting as a caster no matter what class you play because uptime is going to give you the most of your dps, after you reach near perfect uptime you can look at rotations fails.



    Quote Originally Posted by Rackfu View Post
    Now, when we start talking about these top 5% of guilds/players, they are pretty much playing at max potential. Top ranked players don't have issues with movement or watching DoTs... So, those classes that are harder to max out, suddenly start pulling away and making hunters worry about losing raid slots.
    hunters not losing spots on non hardcore guild have nothing to do with their performance, this is why they shouldnt care about how they stand this is why you shouldnt care if they balance classes at higher level. on a normal raiding guild all you do is get 10 ppl and raid, or 25 ppl. friends, familly w/e without taking into account their classes, i seen couple of ppl in hardcore guilds with 5% percentiles as top ranking parse ever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rackfu View Post
    Yes, this is a problem, but not one that can be fixed easily if at all (class homogenization might be the only way).
    No isnt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rackfu View Post
    It cannot be fixed easily because Blizzard balances dps around those players who are progressing through normal modes and maybe a few months into the tier, heroics. The players who are less skilled..... The players who can make hunters compete easily for the top spots in damage done.
    im not sure if im Reading this correctly, i do not understand your point here, it must be me that i dont speak english as main language.



    Quote Originally Posted by Rackfu View Post
    PS: Let's stop with the elitist shit. Just because you are 13/13 does not give you a right to just blatantly disregard someone else who you view as less skilled.
    no one in here is forcing you to read this post, if you dont like what you are Reading move on, dont make a post to complain about it.

  6. #6
    Another "Hunter balance" post that completely ignores the raid utility side of things.

    Our utility consists of traps that tend to ruin other, more effective snares and Misdirection -- which is a weaker version of Tricks of the Trade.

    Like I said in the other topic; numbers change and I feel no huge need to argue over them with other players. But if I'm not going to offer top end damage then I feel like I should at least have a button to press to help my raid. Right now the only reason my raid spot is justified at all is because we need a sporebat.

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  7. #7
    You mad you aint 13/13H.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by PuppetShowJustice View Post
    Another "Hunter balance" post that completely ignores the raid utility side of things.

    Our utility consists of traps that tend to ruin other, more effective snares and Misdirection -- which is a weaker version of Tricks of the Trade.

    Like I said in the other topic; numbers change and I feel no huge need to argue over them with other players. But if I'm not going to offer top end damage then I feel like I should at least have a button to press to help my raid. Right now the only reason my raid spot is justified at all is because we need a sporebat.
    This is really my problem. I don't care about being the top or the middle or the bottom of the projected damage meter. I do care about having nothing to do to help my raid other than tunnel the current priority target. It's boring and that's a problem. We don't even have any active survivability that doesn't cause us to stop everything we're doing while it's active-- even being able to roll something like Barkskin or Ice Barrier would feel better.

  9. #9
    Here's the key thing, all classes should be capable of roughly the same damage output in equivalent gear.

    There's the problem, they are not.

    It really is that simple.

    If Blizz can sort that then maybe they could spend their development time normalizing skill requirements per class instead, adding complexity to some and simplifying others.

    What I'm not ok with is the idea that because my class has been simplified, that I don't deserve to have good damage output.

    I want hunters to be more complex. I've suggested a proc (perhaps on autoshot crit) for Kill Shot to be available to cast outside <20% hp which will increase crit's value to us. We also need buffs to Mastery & Haste's contribution to our dps so we scale better but I've given up hope of seeing that until at least 6.0 if ever. I get the feeling that because of the large number of Hunters in the game Blizz does not want to buff us until enough of us have shifted to playing other less well populated classes. The trouble with that logic is that those who switch will probably switch back once Hunters are competitive again and the rest either won't switch because they simply love playing the hunter (that's my position) or they don't read patch notes and don't do any theorycrafting so won't care/notice the nerfs and thus won't switch mains.

    Just so you get an idea of where I'm coming from, my Hunter is ilvl 521 and I'm in a 13/13 normal guild who are currently wiping a lot on Jin'rokh hc. We have far-from-ideal raid comps and are frequently missing several buffs. Recent attempts on Jin have had me starting with Core Hound for Ancient Hysteria then swapping later to Quilen for the Crit, all the while having no attack speed buff, often being moaned at by our casters/healers to get my sporebat out.

    The thing that annoys me about Hunters not being able to compete for the top spots consistently (or even occasionally) is that's where I derive my enjoyment from the game. I like the competitive camaraderie with other DPS during a raid. It's our own fun mini-game within the game, a game I can not win at present.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by aere1985 View Post
    Just so you get an idea of where I'm coming from, my Hunter is ilvl 521 and I'm in a 13/13 normal guild who are currently wiping a lot on Jin'rokh hc. We have far-from-ideal raid comps and are frequently missing several buffs. Recent attempts on Jin have had me starting with Core Hound for Ancient Hysteria then swapping later to Quilen for the Crit, all the while having no attack speed buff, often being moaned at by our casters/healers to get my sporebat out.
    For your sanity, figure out amongst your raid group which buff will provide the most benefit, and tell the rest to fuck off. Switching pets for lust is bad enough (exacerbated by the increased dismissed pet cast, thanks pvp), without having to do it multiple times in a fight.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Perrito View Post
    ....
    I'm not being a smartass, but I think you misinterpreted my entire post.

    Also, I don't think it is just my opinion that hunters are easier to play that many other classes. Just a quick comparison shows we have less to pay attention to (no DoT that has to be manually refreshed on expiration and no secondary resource are the main things) and absolutely no movement penalty greatly favors lower skilled players.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by aere1985 View Post
    Here's the key thing, all classes should be capable of roughly the same damage output in equivalent gear.
    It is not that simple.

    There are basically 4 things that determine how a particular player playing a certain class does on an encounter:

    1) Personal Skill level (gamer ability, knowledge of fight, knowledge of class, etc..)
    2) Gear Level
    3) Difficulty of class (some classes require far more awareness than others)
    4) Theoretical Maximum that class can put out at a certain gear level during an encounter


    So even if Blizzard can make every class equal on #4, the other 3 things all factor in.

    Now, let's say you have two equally skilled players at the same gear level playing two different classes that Blizzard has managed to perfectly balance no matter what gear they are at...

    They are still going to vary depending on whether one class is harder to play. And the only way around that is to 100% homogenize classes (which is a bad idea).
    Last edited by Rackfu; 2013-08-23 at 01:32 AM.

  12. #12
    Stood in the Fire Conjor's Avatar
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    Blizzard has to balance around the top players if they want WoW to be competitive. This whole argument about balancing around top players has been discussed at length for as long as I can remember for almost all online competitive games. Just look at LoL or HoN. The makers of those games can't balance around the middle-pack players without making the game a joke. What do you think would happen if Blizzard started balancing SC2 around Bronze players. I'm sure that would result in very fun competitive play.

    Also, I would put that number closer to the top .5%, not 5%.
    Last edited by Conjor; 2013-08-23 at 01:39 AM.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Conjor View Post
    Blizzard has to balance around the top players if they want WoW to be competitive. This whole argument about balancing around top players has been discussed at length for as long as I can remember for almost all online competitive games. Just look at LoL or HoN. The makers of those games can't balance around the middle-pack players without making the game a joke. What do you think would happen if Blizzard started balancing SC2 around Bronze players. I'm sure that would result in very fun competitive play.

    Also, I would put that number closer to the top .5%, not 5%.
    I don't think Blizzard intends for WoW to be an "online competitive game" to quite the degree you are suggesting.

    Sure, there are competitive aspects of it, but it is not the end goal. If Blizzard meant for WoW to be like LoL/HoN, things like questing, leveling, pet battles, scenarios, etc. would not exist.

    Honestly, if competition was all they were after, Heroic Mode Raids would be the only thing available.

    ----

    You seem to be looking at the game through only your viewpoint (Heroic raid progression ranking) and not the viewpoint most people have.... Massive Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Game
    Last edited by Rackfu; 2013-08-23 at 01:49 AM.

  14. #14
    Stood in the Fire Conjor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rackfu View Post
    I don't think Blizzard intends for WoW to be an "online competitive game" to quite the degree you are suggesting.

    Sure, there are competitive aspects of it, but it is not the end goal. If Blizzard meant for WoW to be like LoL/HoN, things like questing, leveling, pet battles, scenarios, etc. would not exist.

    Honestly, if competition was all they were after, Heroic Mode Raids would be the only thing available
    You heard it here first folks: WoW is not a competitive game. Guess I should just log out at Halfhill and play farmville all day.

    Sarcasm aside, I respectfully disagree. You need only look at how much work they pour into PvP (whether or not you think they are doing a good job), or how much time they spend collecting data on the PTR. They want the game to be competative. To aim for anything else would mean death for the game.
    Last edited by Conjor; 2013-08-23 at 01:51 AM.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Conjor View Post
    You heard it here first folks: WoW is not a competitive game. Guess I should just log out at Halfhill and play farmville all day.

    Sarcasm aside, I respectfully disagree. You need only look at how much work they pour into PvP (whether or not you think they are doing a good job), or how much time they spend collecting data on the PTR. They want the game to be competative. To aim for anything else would mean death for the game.
    That is not what I wrote and you know it.

    I said that the competitive aspect is not the main focus and PvP proves it... 2 battlegrounds and one new arena map the entire expansion! No fancy high level PvP only transmog gear! Lazy design PvP mounts.

    Yes, they make some attempts to fix things that they think are broken, but in no way do they make a honest effort to try and make PvP balanced.

    More proof? They don't care if Method or Blood Legion sit certain classes and stack others... Hell, they know it happens and make a point of saying that only the top guilds do it.... They don't care if only the top guilds do it....

    This isn't LoL/HoN/SC2..... Those are not MMOs. They are games that are more or less designed from the ground up to be "online competitive games"
    Last edited by Rackfu; 2013-08-23 at 02:03 AM.

  16. #16
    Bloodsail Admiral Kissthebaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rackfu View Post
    That is not what I wrote and you know it.

    I said that the competitive aspect is not the main focus and PvP proves it... 2 battlegrounds and one new arena map the entire expansion! No fancy high level PvP only transmog gear! Lazy design PvP mounts.

    Yes, they make some attempts to fix things that they think are broken, but in no way do they make a honest effort to try and make PvP balanced.

    More proof? They don't care if Method or Blood Legion sit certain classes and stack others... Hell, they know it happens and make a point of saying that only the top guilds do it.... They don't care if only the top guilds do it....

    This isn't LoL/HoN/SC2..... Those are not MMOs. They are games that are more or less designed from the ground up to be "online competitive games"
    pvp is a side game. like pet battles.

  17. #17
    Herald of the Titans Lord Pebbleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kissthebaby View Post
    Pvp is a side game. like pet battles.
    Sad but true.

    OP: Hunters are easy to play, especially when compared to other classes. However, i'm the kind of person who just sits back when it comes to balancing and sees what will happen, so i can't decide if i agree with you or not.

  18. #18
    Actually, it's sort-of true. WoW PvE is not competitive, it's collaborative. It's just the nature of the community (and gamers in general) to turn it into a competition. Scroll up a little bit and you'll see my own post saying that is one of the main things I enjoy about raiding.

    Look at healing for the moment. The measure of success isn't who healed the most, it's "did players die?". The same is true of DPS but our contributions towards group success (killing the boss) are just much easier to compare and thus rank & compete.

    Guilds that actively stack e.g. Method using 6 warlocks in 1 fight is not a problem for the developers. Unless every class gets the exact same kit this will continue. Guilds that do this kind of stacking should not affect development decisions because they are such a tiny percentage of the wow population.

    They should see problem is when a whole class is dropped for entire raid tiers such as has been the case with Hunters. 1 hunter in a 25 man raid to loot soak is effectively being dropped.

    I don't mind Hunters being a theoretical 10th best dps in the game if the gap between 1st & 10th is ~5%. That 5% difference might matter to Method but to the rest of us it means we're close enough that we feel like we benefit our raid rather than being a burden.

    In fact, you could say that, ironically, method etc. don't care which class is the most powerful because they'll just make sure they have lots of it, stack them heavily and kill the boss. Collaborative raiding through extreme methods. It's the rest of us who invest heavily in one class as our main that suffer when our class under-performs.
    Last edited by aere1985; 2013-08-23 at 02:51 AM.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Rackfu View Post
    I'm not being a smartass, but I think you misinterpreted my entire post.

    Also, I don't think it is just my opinion that hunters are easier to play that many other classes. Just a quick comparison shows we have less to pay attention to (no DoT that has to be manually refreshed on expiration and no secondary resource are the main things) and absolutely no movement penalty greatly favors lower skilled players.
    do you have any logs of you playing a hunter and doing good? since is so faceroll to do so.

    idk why would you think that playing a lock is any hard to do. you think tracking dots is any hard?

    do you really think that destruction is any harder than survival?
    do you really think that demo is any harder than BM?

    fyi yeah you are trying to be a smartass buddy, comming here saying hunters are too easy to play when you have no logs or any proff of said thing yeah you are.

  20. #20
    the quality of the player you balance around is the ceiling. it's the theoretical maximum to expect

    balance around the average player and the ceiling becomes easy to hit (boring to play, no separation between a good and bad player, etc) and you STILL get 10/10 performance from the best players, so their max is the max the class can expect to hit

    when that max is too low, the damn average player doesn't benefit from it. your whole argument is fucking idiotic and it seems like you're trying to come across as an intellectual but you're not intelligent enough to even present a logical argument lol

    so pathetic

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