[5.4 PVE Fury] Will the Mighty of Unshackled Fury Save us?

[skrhaha]

With ToT's BiS, we are almost crit capped (53% crit with raid buff, to ensure bloodthirst's 100% crit in order to maintain 100% uptime enrage), although no room for mastery reforge/gem though.

Looking at SoO's BiS, we are probably going to have 10000+ more green stats, and most of this should all go to mastery since we dont need that much upgrade on crit. Also note that the offset items selection in this upcoming tier is amazing, you can avoid haste in every slot (Fury probably won't go 4T16 given that T16 set bonus is crap, and tier item's green stats isn't optimal). That means we'll have pretty high mastery, about 50-60%. That's gonna multiply our damage output by 150% - 160% given that bloodthirst always crit.

Any thoughts?

[Mihalik]

With ToT's BiS, we are almost crit capped (53% crit with raid buff, to ensure bloodthirst's 100% crit in order to maintain 100% uptime enrage), although no room for mastery reforge/gem though.

Looking at SoO's BiS, we are probably going to have 10000+ more green stats, and most of this should all go to mastery since we dont need that much upgrade on crit. Also note that the offset items selection in this upcoming tier is amazing, you can avoid haste in every slot (Fury probably won't go 4T16 given that T16 set bonus is crap, and tier item's green stats isn't optimal). That means we'll have pretty high mastery, about 50-60%. That's gonna multiply our damage output by 150% - 160% given that bloodthirst always crit.

Any thoughts?

You are getting ahead of yourself. Firstly, we will be losing the tier 15 free enrages. While that set bonus piece isn't the best we ever had, it did amount to some extra enrage time. So the extra crit rating will be noticeable it won't be that substantially higher.

I don't think this will fully fix the bad rng= no dps at all issue. Keep in mind the mastery is only as good as your crit rating. We will just have to wait and see I guess.

[skrhaha]

You are getting ahead of yourself. Firstly, we will be losing the tier 15 free enrages. While that set bonus piece isn't the best we ever had, it did amount to some extra enrage time. So the extra crit rating will be noticeable it won't be that substantially higher.

I don't think this will fully fix the bad rng= no dps at all issue. Keep in mind the mastery is only as good as your crit rating. We will just have to wait and see I guess.

mastery will surpass crit once BT is crit-capped.
and also once BT always trigger RB, it solves the most important RNG - RB use count. Rest is just flurry and CS crit etc, which is acceptable. Most specs have some sort of RNG

[Mihalik]

mastery will surpass crit once BT is crit-capped.
and also once BT always trigger RB, it solves the most important RNG - RB use count. Rest is just flurry and CS crit etc, which is acceptable. Most specs have some sort of RNG

It is a bit hypothetical tho. What I was originally trying to say is that I don't think we will really be crit capped. If that would happen Blizz would probably cut back on the extra crit chance of BT. Especially as it would significantly devalue Recklessness. We will probably see a re-balance where the proc Crit chance of BT will be similar to that of those currently in Heroic crit gear.

I really don't see us being given a 100% Enrage uptime. I wish that would happen. But something makes me doubt it will.

[Kalmah]

It is a bit hypothetical tho. What I was originally trying to say is that I don't think we will really be crit capped. If that would happen Blizz would probably cut back on the extra crit chance of BT. Especially as it would significantly devalue Recklessness. We will probably see a re-balance where the proc Crit chance of BT will be similar to that of those currently in Heroic crit gear.

I really don't see us being given a 100% Enrage uptime. I wish that would happen. But something makes me doubt it will.

Why would they ever nerf BT's bonus crit ? It's not like it will make warriors overpowered.

And I don't see how it would devalue recklessness at all, let alone significantly.

[skrhaha]

It is a bit hypothetical tho. What I was originally trying to say is that I don't think we will really be crit capped. If that would happen Blizz would probably cut back on the extra crit chance of BT. Especially as it would significantly devalue Recklessness. We will probably see a re-balance where the proc Crit chance of BT will be similar to that of those currently in Heroic crit gear.

I really don't see us being given a 100% Enrage uptime. I wish that would happen. But something makes me doubt it will.

first of all, BT is a skill that needs a buff, not a nerf.
second, you know there's something called recklessness glyph...

Here's landsoul' armory, he got 41% crit unbuff

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...dsoul/advanced

[Archimtiros]

Yall are ignoring a lot of factors with this line of reasoning.

Firstly, Enrage uptimes: Well geared/playing raiders already have 90%+ uptimes on Enrage. Getting any higher doesn't actually change a whole lot for us. The DPS difference in 95 to 100% enrage uptime is very small, assuming you are not losing Enrage during CS and using BzR correctly. After around 30-35%, stacking more Crit is more a reliability/QoL improvement to our DPS, attempting to remove the random chance factor and have better sustained DPS (always getting 3 RBs inside CS, etc). So we will continue to stack crit, not to reach a certain Enrage uptime, but to maximize our Raging Blow usage and reliability.
Same results, different reason.

Regarding Crit and Mastery: Consider that the highest geared among us, have ~40% crit before procs in raid (counting buffs and crit depreciation, before procs such as Gaze). This is achieved by gemming and reforging completely for Crit. ~7k rating from gems alone. Very few have higher than that, usually from 1) being TG and 2) ignoring set pieces.
Not only do most people still need more Crit to reach that magical 100% BT crit number, but to actively gem and reforge for it, we would need to get even MORE Crit on top of that (replacing what we lose from re-gem/forge).

Reck Glyph: Will almost always be a DPS loss. Regardless of your chance to crit with BT, a weak ability at the best of times, Recks real benefit is making everything else Crit during your burst. Fury DPS revolves around stacking CDs for maximum burst output. Even if we had 50% Crit for 100% BT, Recklessness then boosts all our other abilities to 80%, which is a very large increase to our damage inside CS, as well as Bloodbath damage, especially with Skull Banner running.
Lowering that Crit Chance for some extra time on Reck, that falls out of our CS, Skull Banner, Synapse, Bloodfury, etc; is worthless. If your executing your rotation correctly, you wouldn't even have much/any rage to use more special abilities after your burst.
In the world of the old Reck (+50% chance); yes, near/after hitting 50% crit, using the Glyph would be an increase; but now our "soft cap" is effectively raised to 70% for purposes of the Glyph.
Either way, your chance to Crit with BT in no way devalues Recklessness, if anything higher Crit chance makes Recklessness even better.

Lastly: I expect, if Fury mechanics do not get re-worked, that next expansion we will see BT turned into a constant 100% chance to Crit ability. Or at least "always procs Enrage/1 charge Raging Blow on use."
Just a theory, but with proposed item squish and all the rest, I think we will be seeing Crit chance being dropped back down even further than they were at the start of MoP, and not being inflated with each tier as quickly as it has been recently.

[Taik]

With ToT's BiS, we are almost crit capped (53% crit with raid buff, to ensure bloodthirst's 100% crit in order to maintain 100% uptime enrage)

The highest amout of crit I've see any fury warrior with is 41% unbuffed (Landsoul) with raid bufs that is approx. 46.5% with 5% crit buff and the bonus from stat buff.

I honestly doubt that it's worth it to discard T16 4piece, as 3 of 5 set pieces have crit on them and chest is decently itemized, and then we'll use either shoulders from Garrosh

[Brakthir]

The highest amout of crit I've see any fury warrior with is 41% unbuffed (Landsoul) with raid bufs that is approx. 46.5% with 5% crit buff and the bonus from stat buff.

I honestly doubt that it's worth it to discard T16 4piece, as 3 of 5 set pieces have crit on them and chest is decently itemized, and then we'll use either shoulders from Garrosh

Actually, I think the chest off Dark Shamans is our offset piece but I could be wrong.

[Deleted]

The highest amout of crit I've see any fury warrior with is 41% unbuffed (Landsoul) with raid bufs that is approx. 46.5% with 5% crit buff and the bonus from stat buff.

I honestly doubt that it's worth it to discard T16 4piece, as 3 of 5 set pieces have crit on them and chest is decently itemized, and then we'll use either shoulders from Garrosh

I don't know %chance on T16 4p, don't even know if it's RPPM based or has an ICD, but besides helm and gloves (since the crit/mast gloves apparently are trash drop) i think there's a better off-set piece with crit/mast (with 1 extra socket in legs/shoulders) for every slot.

Also 4p procs aren't always worth the same, a proc that could be used in a CS phase or a proc sub 20% i guess would be way better than a proc 3sg after CS ended.

I'm just speculating (if that's even a word), but for TG warriors in HC Warforged gear, going 2pc might be better.

[Darkfriend]

First off, the BT crit chance being 100% is NOT the number that currently determines (In ToT) whether mastery or crit are more valuable. It depends, but after BT has a high enough chance (~41% selfbuffed as TG) than mastery beats out crit for pure damage vs crits pure damage per point+increased RB chance.

In SoO the difference is the "impale" trinket. Increasing crit damage means that once again crit's pure damage point for point will outscale mastery (And that's ignoring the added benefit of extra crit chance on CS to proc enrage for more rage/RB.)

Will this change towards BiS gear? Not sure. I'm guessing that as TG and on any fight with consistent AoE it might become mastery, but right off with the trinket and highly probably for the majority of the tier it will still be crit> mastery.

[Juni]

Blizz wouldn't nerf bt's crit chance.. I hope. They have done silly things in the past, but chances are that they wont do that. And in the end it would SERIOUSLY nerf our output. Which they shouldnt - we're not in that good of a place in 5.4 compared to other melee. If anything they should buff bt's damage, 100k-130k on a crit is pretty sad. And no, I'm not asking for a buff, I just think if they're gonna touch bt it should be to increase it's damage, but with SoO bis I dont think it's gonna matter.

[skrhaha]

Yall are ignoring a lot of factors with this line of reasoning.

Firstly, Enrage uptimes: Well geared/playing raiders already have 90%+ uptimes on Enrage. Getting any higher doesn't actually change a whole lot for us. The DPS difference in 95 to 100% enrage uptime is very small, assuming you are not losing Enrage during CS and using BzR correctly. After around 30-35%, stacking more Crit is more a reliability/QoL improvement to our DPS, attempting to remove the random chance factor and have better sustained DPS (always getting 3 RBs inside CS, etc). So we will continue to stack crit, not to reach a certain Enrage uptime, but to maximize our Raging Blow usage and reliability.
Same results, different reason.

Regarding Crit and Mastery: Consider that the highest geared among us, have ~40% crit before procs in raid (counting buffs and crit depreciation, before procs such as Gaze). This is achieved by gemming and reforging completely for Crit. ~7k rating from gems alone. Very few have higher than that, usually from 1) being TG and 2) ignoring set pieces.
Not only do most people still need more Crit to reach that magical 100% BT crit number, but to actively gem and reforge for it, we would need to get even MORE Crit on top of that (replacing what we lose from re-gem/forge).

Reck Glyph: Will almost always be a DPS loss. Regardless of your chance to crit with BT, a weak ability at the best of times, Recks real benefit is making everything else Crit during your burst. Fury DPS revolves around stacking CDs for maximum burst output. Even if we had 50% Crit for 100% BT, Recklessness then boosts all our other abilities to 80%, which is a very large increase to our damage inside CS, as well as Bloodbath damage, especially with Skull Banner running.
Lowering that Crit Chance for some extra time on Reck, that falls out of our CS, Skull Banner, Synapse, Bloodfury, etc; is worthless. If your executing your rotation correctly, you wouldn't even have much/any rage to use more special abilities after your burst.
In the world of the old Reck (+50% chance); yes, near/after hitting 50% crit, using the Glyph would be an increase; but now our "soft cap" is effectively raised to 70% for purposes of the Glyph.
Either way, your chance to Crit with BT in no way devalues Recklessness, if anything higher Crit chance makes Recklessness even better.

Lastly: I expect, if Fury mechanics do not get re-worked, that next expansion we will see BT turned into a constant 100% chance to Crit ability. Or at least "always procs Enrage/1 charge Raging Blow on use."
Just a theory, but with proposed item squish and all the rest, I think we will be seeing Crit chance being dropped back down even further than they were at the start of MoP, and not being inflated with each tier as quickly as it has been recently.

OK besides reck glyph, lets talk about your 1st point: enrage uptimes.
True that people could have 90%+ uptime enrage nowadays. But it doesn't mean they still have enough green stats to reforge/gem into master. My whole thread is to insist that we finally will have enough green stats to put into mastery in 5.4, which will boost our damage since our crit is high enough.

and about your 2nd point, which your first point is contradicting to, we probably don't need to have to make crit reach that magical point before starting gemming into mastery.

[Jalopy]

With ToT's BiS, we are almost crit capped (53% crit with raid buff

Do we play the same game? Even I'm not at 45% raid buffed, although if I ignored a few sockets I could be.

E: You probably mean 43%, but TG can push higher anyway. Pretty sure as it's been said above that the amp trinket keeps crit's value > mastery regardless of hitting the soft cap.

[Archimtiros]

Blizz wouldn't nerf bt's crit chance.. I hope. They have done silly things in the past, but chances are that they wont do that. And in the end it would SERIOUSLY nerf our output. Which they shouldnt - we're not in that good of a place in 5.4 compared to other melee. If anything they should buff bt's damage, 100k-130k on a crit is pretty sad. And no, I'm not asking for a buff, I just think if they're gonna touch bt it should be to increase it's damage, but with SoO bis I dont think it's gonna matter.

Where did this rumor/scenario come from?
There's no way in hell they would nerf Bloodthirst or its Crit chance. One Fury isn't in any way in need of nerfs and two, what would be the point?
Even if we were too strong, they would modify our coefficients rather than change an integral mechanic of our rotation. There hasn't been even a hint of a Bloodthirst change.

Nothing will happen with BT/Enrage functionality until next expansion. And then, as I said above, my totally unproven - completely off the top of my own head with no facts what so ever theory/wish is that, assuming no complete mechanics overhaul, using BT will always proc enrage/1 charge Raging Blow.

- - - Updated - - -

OK besides reck glyph, lets talk about your 1st point: enrage uptimes.
True that people could have 90%+ uptime enrage nowadays. But it doesn't mean they still have enough green stats to reforge/gem into master. My whole thread is to insist that we finally will have enough green stats to put into mastery in 5.4, which will boost our damage since our crit is high enough.

and about your 2nd point, which your first point is contradicting to, we probably don't need to have to make crit reach that magical point before starting gemming into mastery.

1) We do not have enough raw stats, because if we removed all those regem/reforges we would lose far more Crit than we will make up for in the next tiers worth of gear. Secondly, Crit will continue to be, at the very least, on par with Mastery come next tier due to Amplification trinket (among other things) as Dark posted above.

2) How did I contradict myself? I don't know if I am confused as to what you are trying to say, or if you are confused as to what you are trying to say or both.

[Jalopy]

using BT will always proc enrage/1 charge Raging Blow.

That sounds really boring. Not that hoping for crits is compelling, but 100% uptime on enrage from day 1 would mean they'd have to redesign our mastery completely, or nerf it hard.

[Archimtiros]

Do we play the same game? Even I'm not at 45% raid buffed, although if I ignored a few sockets I could be.

E: You probably mean 43%, but TG can push higher anyway. Pretty sure as it's been said above that the amp trinket keeps crit's value > mastery regardless of hitting the soft cap.

Jalopy, your also using 4p. These guys keep looking at Armories like Landsoul who are doing their own thing, for specific reasons and avoiding 4p in favor of offset Crit gear.
Also, OT: This only applies to Warriors who actually are TG, still a lot of Warriors out there who are SMF and will continue to be so, who won't get nearly as close to that "crit cap" that keeps getting bandied about.

That sounds really boring. Not that hoping for crits is compelling, but 100% uptime on enrage from day 1 would mean they'd have to redesign our mastery completely, or nerf it hard.

Your right it would. The only reason I say it is because I recall them talking before about how they don't want heavy focus on stacking Crit, and always wanted it to be a "interesting random occurrence."
I know that isn't much to go off of, but also factor item squishing, I think next expansion we will start off in the 10-20% crit range, and not jump nearly as high up between tiers as we have this Expac.
I hope, if this did happen, it would encourage a small redesign of how we function. It would be a huge QoL improvement to early Fury gear levels and give a little more sustainability. I for one hate that our Mastery is based off a chance occurrence (crit).

Its just an idea! Definitely not polling for it, or any some such, just sharing my random thoughts.

[skrhaha]

you are contradicting yourself in the sense that:

A: you are trying to say that 95% uptime and 100% uptime has little difference
B: you still need a lot crit to get into 100% uptime

Also, you are saying "we do not have enough raw stats, if we REMOVE..."

When did I suggest we remove our current crit level into mastery? All I'm saying, with the upgrade of 5.4 gear....... In short sentence, stay where we are on crit, having more mastery is a huge boost. Not talking about reforging strategy here, but it's a fact that mastery scales far more better than before when crit is high.

[Archimtiros]

A: point stands, at that point between 90 and 100% uptime has more to do with mechanics and movement than anything else; so even having a magical 100% BT crit chance doesn't necessitate a 100% uptime on Enrage.

B: You misunderstand, I meant we need a lot of crit rating still to get a 100 chance of BT critting on a consistent basis. While that would result in a 100% uptime on Enrage in a static environment, it doesn't mean the same thing.
We = warriors as a whole, not one or two people in absolute BiS gear, and even some of those have a ways yet. Jalopy is about the same gear as me and only sitting on 40% unbuffed. I am SMF so my own armory is skewed. Landsoul and others only are that high because of their specific situations (skipping 4p for crit gear because of Banner usage).

[skrhaha]

That sounds really boring. Not that hoping for crits is compelling, but 100% uptime on enrage from day 1 would mean they'd have to redesign our mastery completely, or nerf it hard.

I really don't think fury is at a place to be nerfed.
This is like range classes having haste to reach some threshold and the other stats finally comes top