Lore Interview with Dave Kosak

[Anjerith]

I think I finally found Zarhym's MMO-champ sockpuppet account.

"You have to take it as a whole, not just what you see in-game guys." --------Seeing fun beyond every material layer of the in-game content? Sorry, but I want an immersive, enjoyable product - NOT a religion.

I wish.


And, I just don't see it as a "religion". This may be because I grew up on DnD. Where you pretty much had to invest in several books at a minimum in order to enjoy the game. Then when Forgotten Realms came out, you had the rule books and the Ed Greenwood novels and as more characters became relevant you had more novels and so on.

Enjoying an immersive fantasy setting just takes effort on the part of the people that invest interest in it. It is impossible to look at one piece of the whole and proclaim judgment on the whole.

That said, I abhor the Warcraft novels and thing they are written by fantasy authors that miss the point of Warcraft being a mix of steam-age technology and the standard fantasy setting. But then, I can't say most fantasy settings haven't been walked to death at this point in time anyway.

[Scummer]

<<Snip snip>>

I can agree with what that person said. The issue is and has always been the presentation of the story and the homogenization.
To tell us in a dry fashion that an event will make it a good story is dumb. It is how the event is presented and the reasons for that event that make a compelling story. That is why bluntly telling us "But you kill Garrosh" is ultimately meaningless because it's presented in a way that doesn't carry much weight among the Alliance, or rather the Humans.

[KrazyK923]

You can try to dismiss it all you like, but he fact remains that Fenris Keep remains in Alliance hands. Unless you can show me where they lost it.

Alliance considered it pretty victorious when they pushed the orc invaders out of their lands. Or do you not consider them victorious until the Alliance go through to Draenor?

Wow, I mean. Just wow.

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Then you will never happy to be honest, eitherthe Horde or Alliance get better content, in classic Alliance was far more fleshed out and that changed through the expansions, since cata the horde gets "better" content but the lore as a whole keeps it somewhat balanced.

Why is it either again? I have to say, I am supremely disappointed by the "Just deal with it" response I'm seeing more frequently. I guess Blizzard wins. They Alliance can get shat all over but because they had the better Onyxia attunement in Vanilla then thats ok.

[khalltusk]

I don't think the alliance whine is quite justified in MOP.

Some of it has value like the way the night elves were portrayed in the 5.1 quest lines. Varian had some good stuff but I think it could have been better. The whole Dalaran quest line was brilliant along with the 5.2 stuff with the high elves jaina and the kiron tor it mirrored against the blood elves storyline greatly. The alliance is shown to be working closer than ever before (previously the horde was more united as a force and the alliance had no central leadership) while the horde is splitting apart.

the alliance gets to siege Org dethrone our leader Varian even has the chance to put the boot in but takes the high ground and lets the horde choose its next leader. I think they maybe could have done a better job with how the night elves were presented along with some other things but overall they did a great job.

I even enjoyed the bits of lore around the dwarves and how moira has thrown her loyalty behind the alliance with her dark iron dwarves.

[Combatbutler]

Why is it either again? I have to say, I am supremely disappointed by the "Just deal with it" response I'm seeing more frequently. I guess Blizzard wins. They Alliance can get shat all over but because they had the better Onyxia attunement in Vanilla then thats ok.

Because it is almost impossible to please both factions at the same time, just look at Dalaran, it was a morally gray action and legit and the forums drowned in QQ. Of course you can demand more balanced storytelling, but I doubt it will ever change that one faction is favored over the other.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

You can try to dismiss it all you like, but he fact remains that Fenris Keep remains in Alliance hands. Unless you can show me where they lost it.


Alliance considered it pretty victorious when they pushed the orc invaders out of their lands. Or do you not consider them victorious until the Alliance go through to Draenor?

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I hope you got all your friends to vote it up so it doesn't get buried in garbage.

Didn't Horde players march in there and so badly wreck the place the leadership had to become Worgen just to escape death?

[Faroth]

Because it is almost impossible to please both factions at the same time, just look at Dalaran, it was a morally gray action and legit and the forums drowned in QQ. Of course you can demand more balanced storytelling, but I doubt it will ever change that one faction is favored over the other.

That's what disappointed me about Dalaran. They're saying it was the Alliance's big fist pump moment, but...
A) It was a questionable decision, which makes it an unclear victory
B) It wasn't exactly a big victory since the story was written for Alliance to kill a few stooges and some shop keepers. Nobody of weight was included in the quest.
C) Horde counters the victory with a more compelling scenario storywise by enacting a jailbreak and putting a major lore figure on a collision course with Garrosh.
D) Our "big victory" is then further tainted by the unnecessary story hook that "oh, the blood elves might have joined the Alliance, but you just screwed that all up"

No, the Blood Elves would never join the Alliance, that would be game breaking and cause all kinds of problems. But since we all know it'll never happen, why tarnish what you want to be a big shining moment of glory with that information? It makes Dalaran questionable as to whether it was a victory at all and paints it more as a failure and loss on the Alliance's part.

"You gained a city, but you could have gained the city with the Kirin Tor AND Sunreavers AND all blood elves, but you screwed it up, so you only get a fraction of what you could have had. That's your big victory!"

I think as an overview, on paper, and in summary the Alliance story sounds pretty awesome, but the devil is in the details and the details for the Alliance story are what made it pretty lackluster.

[KrazyK923]

didn't horde players march in there and so badly wreck the place the leadership had to become worgen just to escape death?

But we didn't nuke it into the ground so its still an alliance fortress brah!

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That's what disappointed me about Dalaran. They're saying it was the Alliance's big fist pump moment, but...
A) It was a questionable decision, which makes it an unclear victory
B) It wasn't exactly a big victory since the story was written for Alliance to kill a few stooges and some shop keepers. Nobody of weight was included in the quest.
C) Horde counters the victory with a more compelling scenario storywise by enacting a jailbreak and putting a major lore figure on a collision course with Garrosh.
D) Our "big victory" is then further tainted by the unnecessary story hook that "oh, the blood elves might have joined the Alliance, but you just screwed that all up"

No, the Blood Elves would never join the Alliance, that would be game breaking and cause all kinds of problems. But since we all know it'll never happen, why tarnish what you want to be a big shining moment of glory with that information? It makes Dalaran questionable as to whether it was a victory at all and paints it more as a failure and loss on the Alliance's part.

"You gained a city, but you could have gained the city with the Kirin Tor AND Sunreavers AND all blood elves, but you screwed it up, so you only get a fraction of what you could have had. That's your big victory!"

I think as an overview, on paper, and in summary the Alliance story sounds pretty awesome, but the devil is in the details and the details for the Alliance story are what made it pretty lackluster.

Dalaran sucks as a "fist-pump" moment because we never see it in the game. The Kirin Tor's "power" is identically matched with the Sunreaver Onslaught in 5.2. Whatever benefit we get for having the Kirin Tor and Dalaran on our side is not shown in the game whatsoever. Blizzard just keeps saying its significant.

[khalltusk]

But we didn't nuke it into the ground so its still an alliance fortress brah!

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Dalaran sucks as a "fist-pump" moment because we never see it in the game. The Kirin Tor's "power" is identically matched with the Sunreaver Onslaught in 5.2. Whatever benefit we get for having the Kirin Tor and Dalaran on our side is not shown in the game whatsoever. Blizzard just keeps saying its significant.

On the bright side you lost theramore and gained Dalaran.

[Faroth]

Dalaran sucks as a "fist-pump" moment because we never see it in the game. The Kirin Tor's "power" is identically matched with the Sunreaver Onslaught in 5.2. Whatever benefit we get for having the Kirin Tor and Dalaran on our side is not shown in the game whatsoever. Blizzard just keeps saying its significant.

I agree "if a victory's results are never seen, is it a victory?"

The Alliance suffers from a long string of being told what their victories are. It's a very old writer/storytelling tip "Show the reader, don't tell them." That's even more true in a visual medium like games. The Horde are visually shown their actions, their victories, and perhaps even losses. The Alliance are more often told what they did.

Honestly, very small changes to what was implemented would go a long way in changing the entire tone of the game. For example:

If Durotar had a night elf camp set up with Amber, Sully, a number of night elves in the area, and Shandris Feathermoon at the edge of Durotar as the starting point and Shandris, general of the NE forces, sent you to scout Orgrimmar with a couple of night elves and Sully (Amber understood to be set up somewhere to snipe) and you still did the espionage of retrieving information and perhaps mark a few mobs for Amber to snipe, would that have felt like there was more weight while doing the same essential quest?

Upon completion of the quest, having the troll you rescued approach Shandris' camp delivering a request for Shandris to meet with Vol'jin but she sends you instead as the ambassador.

You'd have a lore figure, someone with a level of command, and you'd have Vol'jin reaching out to ask for aid like BAINE TOLD HIM TO rather than Alliance having a scout making high level decisions to ally with the Horde (granted, it was a smart move, but should Amber be making those field decisions?).

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On the bright side you lost theramore and gained Dalaran.

We gained a crater and gained an invisible city we may never see. I remain skeptical we'll ever see them do anything with Dalaran. It IS kinda....big to plop down as an Alliance city somewhere.

And again, we gained Dalaran, but we lost the Sunreavers and THE ENTIRE BLOOD ELF RACE as Alliance allies. That's not exactly a win. So again, why even bring that up as a plot point?

[khalltusk]

I agree "if a victory's results are never seen, is it a victory?"

The Alliance suffers from a long string of being told what their victories are. It's a very old writer/storytelling tip "Show the reader, don't tell them." That's even more true in a visual medium like games. The Horde are visually shown their actions, their victories, and perhaps even losses. The Alliance are more often told what they did.

Honestly, very small changes to what was implemented would go a long way in changing the entire tone of the game. For example:

If Durotar had a night elf camp set up with Amber, Sully, a number of night elves in the area, and Shandris Feathermoon at the edge of Durotar as the starting point and Shandris, general of the NE forces, sent you to scout Orgrimmar with a couple of night elves and Sully (Amber understood to be set up somewhere to snipe) and you still did the espionage of retrieving information and perhaps mark a few mobs for Amber to snipe, would that have felt like there was more weight while doing the same essential quest?

Upon completion of the quest, having the troll you rescued approach Shandris' camp delivering a request for Shandris to meet with Vol'jin but she sends you instead as the ambassador.

You'd have a lore figure, someone with a level of command, and you'd have Vol'jin reaching out to ask for aid like BAINE TOLD HIM TO rather than Alliance having a scout making high level decisions to ally with the Horde (granted, it was a smart move, but should Amber be making those field decisions?).

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We gained a crater and gained an invisible city we may never see. I remain skeptical we'll ever see them do anything with Dalaran. It IS kinda....big to plop down as an Alliance city somewhere.

It is better than having Garry derpscream as your boss :P

I think the alliance don't have as RAW a deal as some make it out to be. You do get to raid our capital city and KILL our warchief IN LORE this time for realz! From the sound files pretty much all your racial leaders turn up for the fight. I think your ending cinematic might give you that Fist pump moment you've been waiting on.

[Deleted]

I don't think the alliance whine is quite justified in MOP.

Some of it has value like the way the night elves were portrayed in the 5.1 quest lines.

The alliance is shown to be working closer than ever before (previously the horde was more united as a force and the alliance had no central leadership) while the horde is splitting apart.

Yes... I needed some good moment of laughter for today, thank you.
WoW's N-elves are the most bland, textureless and uninspired race within entire game. Having been deprived of all traces of personality and tangible traits, these 5.1 questlines only make them into easily baitable idiots who need advisors from younger races to merely survive on the battlefield.

As for the "unified Alliance VS fractured Horde"...

Fractured Horde gives inspiring, immersive questlines.

Unified Alliance is merely a catchphrase thrown around MMO-champ community to shut up the whiners.

[khalltusk]

Yes... I needed some good moment of laughter for today, thank you.
WoW's N-elves are the most bland, textureless and uninspired race within entire game. Having been deprived of all traces of personality and tangible traits, these 5.1 questlines only make them into easily baitable idiots who need advisors from younger races to merely survive on the battlefield.

As for the "unified Alliance VS fractured Horde"...

Fractured Horde gives inspiring, immersive questlines.

Unified Alliance is merely a catchphrase thrown around MMO-champ community to shut up the whiners.

Yes that is what I stated that some of the whine has value like the way the nelves were portrayed in the 5.1 quest lines. The alliance and horde changes in the way they were unified or split apart is a reverse of what they were before.

Previously in wrath/vanilla etc the horde was under a unified command structure while the alliance was a loose group of races who had no over all direct leadership. For horde players like my self I hate the fact we've been split apart by a giant tool of a warchief. Its a cool story line sure but a sad one =[. Using the phrase unified alliance is valid. Varian becomes a better leader (in part by how derp the nelves acted in 5.1) and has the command and respect of the alliance where as garrosh only has the command and respect of one aspect of the horde.

[Deleted]

Sad to hear about the Tirisfal part and actually using it in the future would be like "Hey, look what we pulled out of our asses" and this is what basically ends the "below Tirisfal" thing.

And interesting to hear about the Alliance fist pump moment discussion! Way to shut up the crying Horde-bias faction.

You're sad that they ended a false rumour?

[KrazyK923]

It is better than having Garry derpscream as your boss :P

I think the alliance don't have as RAW a deal as some make it out to be. You do get to raid our capital city and KILL our warchief IN LORE this time for realz! From the sound files pretty much all your racial leaders turn up for the fight. I think your ending cinematic might give you that Fist pump moment you've been waiting on.

How many ways do we have to explain that Garrosh dying isn't an Alliance victory. And Dave Kosak basically confirms that Blizzard considered Dalaran the fist-pump moment.

By the way, I'd trade the Alliance's storyline for the Horde's in an instant. You got an awesome string of victories, a great leveling storyline in Cataclysm all the way around, a far superior Twilight Highland's story, a huge victory in Theramore, dynamic interactions between more than a few of your faction leaders, a really interesting Rebellion storyline, all culminating with the deposing of your own leader in your own capital.

[Deleted]

You're sad that they ended a false rumour?

I think what's disappointing is that previous answers (e.g to paraphrase: there's something down there but it's not an Old God. Best not go digging in Tirisfal.) seemed to indicate that Blizzard had a more concrete idea of what was down there. Of course in truth that could still be the case, as in they know what's down there but until it's in the game and canonised they reserve the right to completely change it. That's what I'm thinking. I mean the hints we've gotten already: the confirmation it's not an Old God, similarity to Tyr's Fall and the Fae ritual all suggest that they have some direction here. Otherwise there wouldn't be such specific hints.

[khalltusk]

How many ways do we have to explain that Garrosh dying isn't an Alliance victory.

It is an alliance victory? Don't care how you spin it. The horde is at its lowest EB when we have to dispose of our own warchief and pretty much wreck a fair amount of our capital city to do so. The large amount of horde casualties either side is another reason for any blood thirsty alliance type to cheer for too. The ending cinematic I believe will bring you that fist pumping moment. Why do you think of disposing Garrosh would be anything other than a victory for the alliance. They kill the guy who personally organised the bombing of Theramore who pursued a aggressive war against the alliance after things had calmed down at the end of wrath. The same guy who almost killed the prince of stormwind and had killed a lot of alliance troops (the ship wrecked guys among them).

Its a victory for the alliance, for the horde its more a sigh of relief. A Tyrant has been slain but out people came close to utter ruin along the way.

[KrazyK923]

It is an alliance victory? Don't care how you spin it. The horde is at its lowest EB when we have to dispose of our own warchief and pretty much wreck a fair amount of our capital city to do so. The large amount of horde casualties either side is another reason for any blood thirsty alliance type to cheer for too. The ending cinematic I believe will bring you that fist pumping moment. Why do you think of disposing Garrosh would be anything other than a victory for the alliance. They kill the guy who personally organised the bombing of Theramore who pursued a aggressive war against the alliance after things had calmed down at the end of wrath. The same guy who almost killed the prince of stormwind and had killed a lot of alliance troops (the ship wrecked guys among them).

Its a victory for the alliance, for the horde its more a sigh of relief. A Tyrant has been slain but out people came close to utter ruin along the way.

Dude, it's the Horde's storyline. That was made BLATANTLY clear in 5.3. We're along for the ride. Blizzard can say its an Alliance victory all they want, but we're showing up and helping the Horde replace their leader and then leaving. A sigh of relief? Who did you really lose? Nazgrim? Oh darn! Unless Saurfang, Thrall, Baine, ect die during the raid you lost the cosmetic Horde characters. It'd be as if we'd lose Sky Admiral Rogers and then consider our losses huge. Yeah, it sucks she's dead, but she is hardly a huge blow to the Alliance. Oh, and wreck your Capital? Please. The majority of the Orgrimmar raid takes place in the Underhold.

And Blizzard has already given us our fist-pump moment. It was Dalaran. lulz.

And what could that moment possibly be if it was at the end of 5.4? Varian chopping Garrosh's head off? Woo, that sure makes up for a lack of a story during this storyline and an atrocious Cataclysm one. Oh wait, or maybe its us up and leaving Orgrimmar. Woo, fist-pump!

[khalltusk]

Dude, it's the Horde's storyline. That was made BLATANTLY clear in 5.3. We're along for the ride. Blizzard can say its an Alliance victory all they want, but we're showing up and helping the Horde replace their leader and then leaving.

Oh my god you're one of them aren't you?

The 5.3 storyline aside from the razorhill/senjin village events had nothing to them (they were good though admittedly) But you get to fucking SIEGE our capital and kill OUR warchief (even if hes a tool) in lore. Your faction leaders are in a strong position after the siege and your leader ALLOWS us to choose our own leader. That is an alliance victory. You turn up give org a nose bleed and get rid of a tyrant.

If I were you i'd wait till the cinematic has been viewed as i'm willing to bet it really gives you that moment you've been waiting for.

[KrazyK923]

Oh my god you're one of them aren't you?

The 5.3 storyline aside from the razorhill/senjin village events had nothing to them (they were good though admittedly) But you get to fucking SIEGE our capital and kill OUR warchief (even if hes a tool) in lore. Your faction leaders are in a strong position after the siege and your leader ALLOWS us to choose our own leader. That is an alliance victory. You turn up give org a nose bleed and get rid of a tyrant.

If I were you i'd wait till the cinematic has been viewed as i'm willing to bet it really gives you that moment you've been waiting for.

One of them? You mean an Alliance player that is tired of being shit on and told its chocolate? Yes. Yes I am.

Razorhill and Sen'jin Village had nothing to them? Did you actually do it? It was fucking awesome. It showed an actual Rebellion. A rising up against Garrosh. Meanwhile the Alliance was piloting a robot cat. Woo!

What don't you understand about the Alliance and Rebellion doing this together in 5.4? Vol'jin et al are right along there with the Alliance. That isn't an Alliance victory. An Alliance victory implies its an Alliance-only victory, which it isn't. Its a neutral victory. The culmination of the Horde Rebellion storyline where the Alliance comes along for the ride. And then we get a cosmetic bone thrown to us in Varian "allowing" another Warchief. Woo, such a fist-pump. Acting in a completely antithetical way that any military leader would. Lothar is spinning in his grave.

So next time you say "You guys get to siege OUR capital," try to realize that you do as well as a Horde character.

And dude, I'd suggest you listen to the actual interview and stop repeating your last line. Blizzard already considered the "moment" given to us.