T15 4pc Too Stronk?! NONSENSE

[Kezuma]

T15 4pc is stupid but in SoO the CD trinket is way more retarded , is simply not right to have a spike atleast in shadowcraft from 549 ToT trinkets to 528 LFR SoO for 25k dps gain just with 1 trinket , imagine the 572 trinket i dont even dare to go there is simply stupid the game got to evolve so much around 1 item.
The new trinkets(atleast the CD reduction trinket so far) are more powerfull than all the legendary items so far and is just no right for the game

[Carp The Fish]

Quote from: Latest build of PTR (August 27)
"Class Armor
- Rogue Tier-15 4-piece set bonus now causes Shadow Blades to reduce the cost of all abilities by 15% (down from 40%)."

T15 4P has been nerfed, so the Agility and stat assortments on the T16 stuff will probably make up the difference now. Good thing that Blizzard actually listened to Rogues this time.

[fierydemise]

T15 4P has been nerfed, so the Agility and stat assortments on the T16 stuff will probably make up the difference now. Good thing that Blizzard actually listened to Rogues this time.

They listened but they still did it wrong. This will be a non-trivial nerf to assassination and sub. If they had nerfed the GCD reduction it would have barely touched assassination and sub while fixing the combat issues. The other potential problem (don't have ShadowCraft in front of me right now so can't say for certain) is it may not actually kill the 4pc bonus, the problem is combat scales really well with GCD reductions.

[Koji2k11]

dosn't the nerf make it even more valuable for combat since you wont cap as much like you did with the 40% reduction ?

[Maelstrom51]

dosn't the nerf make it even more valuable for combat since you wont cap as much like you did with the 40% reduction ?

No. Wasted energy doesn't lower your dps as long as you're using the GCDs.

[shadowboy]

They listened but they still did it wrong. This will be a non-trivial nerf to assassination and sub. If they had nerfed the GCD reduction it would have barely touched assassination and sub while fixing the combat issues. The other potential problem (don't have ShadowCraft in front of me right now so can't say for certain) is it may not actually kill the 4pc bonus, the problem is combat scales really well with GCD reductions.

Not sure combat will remain GCD saturated with a 42.5e SS (the new cost after the set bonus). I suspect there will be open GCDs at that cost (although not many). I agree that they nerfed the wrong part though.

[Lucetia]

You do realize the reason they are nerfing it is because they don't want you to be forced into using it in T16? They did this last tier and it makes sense.

dosn't the nerf make it even more valuable for combat since you wont cap as much like you did with the 40% reduction ?

If you are sitting on it, yes. If you are constantly using every single GCD you can then no.

[Maelstrom51]

If you are sitting on it, yes. If you are constantly using every single GCD you can then no.[/FONT]

In no situation should this change be beneficial. It may not be a significant nerf for combat, but its definitely not beneficial in any way.

Again, wasted energy is not a dps loss as long as you're using your GCDs correctly.

[Lucetia]

In no situation should this change be beneficial. It may not be a significant nerf for combat, but its definitely not beneficial in any way.

Again, wasted energy is not a dps loss as long as you're using your GCDs correctly.

Which is what I was basically saying. People think that if they are energy capped they are losing dps, which isn't entirely true as long as they are using appropriate abilities and not like some classes (ex: hunters with steady/cobra shot generating focus) where they use an ability to generate their resource even if they are capped.

[fierydemise]

Playing with ShadowCraft it looks like my suspicion was correct. T15 4pc will still remain strong for combat post nerf if you have AoC. Combat scales too well with GCDs.

[shadowboy]

Fiery: Did you see that you indeed are saturating a 0.5sec GCD after the energy reduction? My rough math says you'd need ~55-60 energy/sec to saturate a 0.5sec GCD with the new energy costs, and even with AR that's not likely possible. At 40 energy/sec, you'd only need a ~0.7sec GCD to be GCD saturated. (Caveat: my rough math is ignoring energy spent on RvS, Rupture, or SnD, it's only assuming a SS-Evis cycle).

[fierydemise]

You aren't saturating a .5 second GCD, I'm seeing a GCD saturation of around .65-.7 seconds as well with haste stacking T15 levels of haste.

EDIT: Assuming T16 haste levels around 20K haste rating it looks like you can saturate around a .6 second GCD.

[Maelstrom51]

The extra slack should make the calculations a little more reasonable, as well. In game a player is unlikely to get every ability at exactly .5 seconds, so a little wiggle room should help that a little.

[Linneth]

It's funny because they seem to be hurting Assa/Sub more than Combat on release with this change; in other words, they don't have a clue.

I wouldn't be surprised if this ends up being "damage neutral" as Combat on a real playfield instead of simulations.

[fierydemise]

It's funny because they seem to be hurting Assa/Sub more than Combat on release with this change; in other words, they don't have a clue.

I wouldn't be surprised if this ends up being "damage neutral" as Combat on a real playfield instead of simulations.

Its about a 1-1.5% nerf to assassination and as a number of people have pointed out you'll be swapping to T16 2pc really quick because it is really good regardless of this nerf. The interesting thing is given the very strong itemization of T16 gear it may be worth breaking 4pc for a single piece of SoO normal gear.

The big problem is I'm not sure if Blizzard's developers really get how much resource overflow combat rogues experience and by extension how well they scale with GCDs. Hopefully this whole set bonus nonsense will show them the issue so they do consider changing how combat, in particular AR functions next expansion.

[Linneth]

The big problem is I'm not sure if Blizzard's developers really get how much resource overflow combat rogues experience and by extension how well they scale with GCDs. Hopefully this whole set bonus nonsense will show them the issue so they do consider changing how combat, in particular AR functions next expansion.

But they increased SS energy cost by 10! Everything should be fixed now, right? ...RIGHT? ...Hello?

[Koji2k11]

i have to convince my raid lead to give me the first 2 tokens that drop from SoO :/

[Kulestu]

You do realize the reason they are nerfing it is because they don't want you to be forced into using it in T16? They did this last tier and it makes sense.



If you are sitting on it, yes. If you are constantly using every single GCD you can then no.

Just to be an obnoxious stickler: It's wasted DPS if you're capping on energy outside of CDs, but I think estimates now are showing that you'll need 17k haste to do that. At the point where you sit at capped energy while using every GCD, you're better going for something other than haste.

[Deleted]

They listened but they still did it wrong. This will be a non-trivial nerf to assassination and sub. If they had nerfed the GCD reduction it would have barely touched assassination and sub while fixing the combat issues. The other potential problem (don't have ShadowCraft in front of me right now so can't say for certain) is it may not actually kill the 4pc bonus, the problem is combat scales really well with GCD reductions.

Why should they care about balancing the first two or three weeks until you have 2p t16 or better nonset items?

[Deleted]

I could understand this nerf a few weeks into SoO but on the 1st day? That means rogues will enter SoO already at a disadvantage.