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  1. #1
    Field Marshal
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    Archeology: bad design ...

    Ok, so .. I get it. Professions get implemented to let people do something outside of the usual dungeons, raiding, PvP, etc etc.. All fun and well.
    But should it really be so much RNG based as archeology is? It's ok to give your player base something to do, but not as time consuming (and after days of grinding the same thing over and over again) utterly boring.

    I like the title "Seeker of Knowledge". I know, titles should not be given out for doing nothing. But don't you think that collecting 25 pristine artefacts (including the mantid ones here) with a random max 15% drop chance for a pristine version, plus being lucky that it is the artefact that you need that pops up for the solving + being lucky that the right dig sites pop up.. is a bit too much of having to be lucky?

    I'm at my last pandaren artefact now, I have all "solve 20 artefacts of this" achievements. Whenever I use the magnificent Lorewalker Map to randomize my dig sites I get 95% of the time max 1 pandaren dig site out of 4.. when I have dug that one up 85% of all time no new pandaren dig site pops up, having to wait another 30 minutes to use a new map item or trying to dig up the others I don't need to have a 15% chance a pandaren dig site pops up to replace that one...
    Then when I finally get them, it is hell to finally get the right item that I need solving to pop up... and even after already 22 solves of that item, still no pristine version and then the endless cycle repeats...

    So Blizzard, please... I don't mind grinding towards something, but I would like something I can work towards without having to rely on pure luck.. For example, whenever you have 20+ versions of an artefact solved without pristine versions having shown up, let the % of the pristine ones go up by like 20% / solve or something.. It would still take time to get there, but at least we would know that we get closer every time... not the feeling that every time you hit solve you have the same "luck" to actually get it...

    Keeping people busy is good in a game, but don't make em wonder round in endless circles just cause you don't want to come up with anything better to do..

  2. #2
    Over 9000! Baar's Avatar
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    I love armchair developers who know more about the game than those that make it.....

  3. #3
    I have to disagree with you. I love Archeology. You don't, ok, that doesn't make it bad design. That just means it's one small aspect of the game, you don't like. Others of us enjoy it greatly.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baar View Post
    I love armchair developers who know more about the game than those that make it.....
    I'm not a developer, I'm asking a question as a paying consumer of the game. Or is that forbidden from now on?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Miatog View Post
    I have to disagree with you. I love Archeology. You don't, ok, that doesn't make it bad design. That just means it's one small aspect of the game, you don't like. Others of us enjoy it greatly.
    Or you just got more lucky with your solves and didn't have to go through as much RNG as others did?

  5. #5
    Pandaren Monk 1ns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miatog View Post
    I have to disagree with you. I love Archeology. You don't, ok, that doesn't make it bad design. That just means it's one small aspect of the game, you don't like. Others of us enjoy it greatly.

    Pretty much this. Archaeology is great fun for us achievement hunters. Its not a big aspect of the game and by no means are you forced to do it, most of my guild mates just ignore it, as they find it boring. Its definitely nothing to complain about when blizzard adds a succesful aspect to the game. I would love to see another secondary profession like archaeology being added in the upcoming xpac.
    There is no such thing as "ability bloat" just l2fp.

  6. #6
    Mechagnome Dragore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obscuritatis View Post
    I'm not a developer, I'm asking a question as a paying consumer of the game. Or is that forbidden from now on?
    This is MMO-C, yes blizzard has said they view other sites but why don't you take this to the WoW forums. But since you posted it here its taking as an opinion. Your opinion is valid, you hate it, a lot of other people like it I myself am one of those. I hate PvP but I love the gear for transmog purposes, it sucks because i have to wait so long to get it but I don't complain to blizz its bad design.

    Instead of coming here complaining then getting a response you don't like maybe you should rethink the thread you posted. In the future why not create a thread about Arch, list your problems you are facing, and how you think they should be improved instead of just babbling about how you think its "bad design".

    Arch is meant to be 3 things. Spend some time outside of a capital city and explore the world(s), lore, and a grinding profession to pass the time between queues and what not.

  7. #7
    The Majority of things in the Game is intended as a Timesink with a lot of repetetiveness because the Developers cannot create content faster than players consume it.

    For Example, if there were no Randomness in Archeology, you could finish all the Pets, Mounts, and Vanity Items that exist within a Month or two after Cataclysm Launch in 2010 and then had nothing to do until 2012 Mists Launch where new Archeology digsites were introduced.
    The way it works currently however, you can do some of the Items but not all if you do Archeology for a Month, and some more if you do it for another Month, but in the Spirit of Randomness you will propably never fully get each and every Item you desire or only get it after a brutal grind.

    They do it especially with cosmetic Items or Achievments, and also you lose nothing if you have no "Seeker" title, no one will guildkick you, stop Raiding with you, or refuse to play Battlegrounds because of that.
    There was another Game whose Name I forgot (not sure if it is out yet), a MMORPG without randomness just pure crafting. Instead of RNG, you get a few crafting Materials as Quest Rewards or Boss kills and can forge Gear after you killed or Quested a lot so maybe that will suit you more as it is predictable.

    I personally like Randomness a little more, because on one Hand every Archeology artefact could be the one you desire, Every Boss could drop the Item you need, or when you do an old Raid/Dungeon then you have the excitement that it may drop anytime, right now, not after 150 Kills. And also Rewards that you get in an RNG Game do not punish your RNG. For Example, if a cool Mount dropped then another one may drop in the Next Raid aswell, or if a Boss dropped your Trinket and you won it then you don't have to kill 20 more Bosses necessarily, the very next Boss could drop your weapon in ten Minutes if you are lucky.

    And on the Other hand you can play the Game virtually forever this way because, which if what you desire in an MMO because propably even after Months of farm you still miss one Item or two, and some Achievments or Mounts. This is the Time when a new Expansion or Content patch hits and you can start to gear up and Mount collect all over again.
    Last edited by Fincher; 2013-08-29 at 06:38 AM.
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Obscuritatis View Post
    Or you just got more lucky with your solves and didn't have to go through as much RNG as others did?
    Nope, I can say that RNG has been bad to me. When Cata hit with it, I was healing, and that doll off Night Elves was my BiS and I kept that little trinket till DS. Want to know how long it took me to get it? 3 months. It was the last NE solve I had, I had done everything possible to boost my odds at getting that doll from the first moment I started working arch. I was burning dig sites for hours every day and it still took me 3 months to get it. RNG has bit me in the butt, and I will admit I was burnt on arch for the rest of cata, but now I'm back in and enjoying it. A big part of me enjoying it again is the huge list of improvements they've made to the system, like getting achievements for 5 and 20 solves...wish I had those when looking for my doll! I would have had all the 20 solves for NE before I saw my doll. The Pristines are fun too, I love seeing my collection grow as I get new ones. I'm taking arch solo, spend maybe an hour a week on it, but it's fun for me and I enjoy it.

  9. #9
    Herald of the Titans inboundpaper's Avatar
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    I hate archeology, but that's mostly because of Jin'Rokh, that damn sword.
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  10. #10
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    I got the "Professor" title, when the profession just came out. So before it got nerfed, even.
    I have never taken that title off. It was the worst/hardest/most boring thing I have ever done, ever. Every other title has been some what fun and rewarding to do. Not that one.
    But yeah, the RNG was not with me either. I spend around 3-4 hours a day farming, for about 2 months; before I got my LAST piece. Notice, it was for the last one.

    That title stays. Forever.
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  11. #11
    The Insane
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    Don't like it, don't do it. It's about as mandatory as fishing, if not even less. It's supposed to be something that takes a while and feels grindy.
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  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Obscuritatis View Post
    Or you just got more lucky with your solves and didn't have to go through as much RNG as others did?
    You have NO idea how lucky or unlucky someone has been in their RNG. I completed Seeker title a few months ago, compared notes with others on profession forums, I had below average RNG when it came to this achievement, so I had to do several thousand solves BEFORE they introduced mantid. So don't tell us we got lucky. It felt all the more satisfying finally getting the title done BECAUSE I didn't get lucky. You just want to push your agenda to make things completable in a week by everyone so anyone who disagrees must've gotten lucky, right?

  13. #13
    Well, it is not that bad actually, since you can now trade fragments for gathered artifacts. It was a true RNG abomination in Cata, though.
    I feel for you, just relax a little from grinding. When you'll start again after some period of time, you'll be lucky. Always worked for me.

  14. #14
    Legendary! Spl4sh3r's Avatar
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    I just got my last Pristine for the Seeker of Knowledge and I know the frustration. I was missing the Edict of the Thunder King as my last Mogu Pristine, I had also already recieved the collect20 on all Pandaren and Mogu artifacts. It took me around eight tries to get the Pristine, by that I mean the Edict was my next solve eight times (not in a row mind) before I got the Pristine version of it. However I didn't see the other solves on things I didn't need as a loss, because I used them for Restored Artifacts that I turned in to get rares of the old races that I was missing (feels like the Tol'vir Crawling Claw is more rare than the Mount at the moment).

    However once I got the Pristine I could at last buy the Mantid Resonater thing so I only got Mantid digsites since I still wasn't done with them.

    EDIT: A tip is not to just go around doing Archaeology, I did mine when I was in queue for LFR or when I was watching movies/series on my computer. Which I would have done even if I just stood in Seven Stars. So I didn't lose anything by doing it.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Fincher View Post
    The Majority of things in the Game is intended as a Timesink with a lot of repetetiveness because the Developers cannot create content faster than players consume it.
    They need to find some other way to entertain us. Timesinks are dated concept and should have gone the way of the dodo.

    Take a hint from old fashion games like cards and chess. Don't see the "developers" there having to constantly feed players content - heck all the "developers" are dead LOL. Do you know why? Because the players you play with are part of the said content!

    When the "optimal" play in PVE is getting a fixed pattern down right, the goal being to remove all variation, of course it's going to go stale quickly!

    Grinds != Content

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by SodiumChloride View Post
    They need to find some other way to entertain us. Timesinks are dated concept and should have gone the way of the dodo.
    No, you need to find some other way to entertain yourself. And if timesinks are bad, come up with something better then. Your goal is to keep people playing on a very consistent basis in a non-PvP situation, and creating content at a faster pace than player consumption is out of the question. Go.
    Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    No, you need to find some other way to entertain yourself. And if timesinks are bad, come up with something better then. Your goal is to keep people playing on a very consistent basis in a non-PvP situation, and creating content at a faster pace than player consumption is out of the question. Go.
    I explained it in the original post.

    Because the players you play with are part of the said content!
    When your decision making is effected by what other players do. It doesn't have to be competitive, it could be cooperative too - e.g. maybe Contract Bridge.

  18. #18
    Stood in the Fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obscuritatis View Post
    Ok, so .. I get it. Professions get implemented to let people do something outside of the usual dungeons, raiding, PvP, etc etc.. All fun and well.
    But should it really be so much RNG based as archeology is? It's ok to give your player base something to do, but not as time consuming (and after days of grinding the same thing over and over again) utterly boring.

    I like the title "Seeker of Knowledge". I know, titles should not be given out for doing nothing. But don't you think that collecting 25 pristine artefacts (including the mantid ones here) with a random max 15% drop chance for a pristine version, plus being lucky that it is the artefact that you need that pops up for the solving + being lucky that the right dig sites pop up.. is a bit too much of having to be lucky?

    I'm at my last pandaren artefact now, I have all "solve 20 artefacts of this" achievements. Whenever I use the magnificent Lorewalker Map to randomize my dig sites I get 95% of the time max 1 pandaren dig site out of 4.. when I have dug that one up 85% of all time no new pandaren dig site pops up, having to wait another 30 minutes to use a new map item or trying to dig up the others I don't need to have a 15% chance a pandaren dig site pops up to replace that one...
    Then when I finally get them, it is hell to finally get the right item that I need solving to pop up... and even after already 22 solves of that item, still no pristine version and then the endless cycle repeats...

    So Blizzard, please... I don't mind grinding towards something, but I would like something I can work towards without having to rely on pure luck.. For example, whenever you have 20+ versions of an artefact solved without pristine versions having shown up, let the % of the pristine ones go up by like 20% / solve or something.. It would still take time to get there, but at least we would know that we get closer every time... not the feeling that every time you hit solve you have the same "luck" to actually get it...

    Keeping people busy is good in a game, but don't make em wonder round in endless circles just cause you don't want to come up with anything better to do..
    You might want to consider getting over it.

    Archaeology has been in the game for nearly three years. This is by far not the first post or probably even the last post by someone who wants everything now, crying that they have to actually make an effort in the game that takes them more than a minute and a half.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Obscuritatis View Post
    Ok, so .. I get it. Professions get implemented to let people do something outside of the usual dungeons, raiding, PvP, etc etc.. All fun and well.
    But should it really be so much RNG based as archeology is? It's ok to give your player base something to do, but not as time consuming (and after days of grinding the same thing over and over again) utterly boring.

    I like the title "Seeker of Knowledge". I know, titles should not be given out for doing nothing. But don't you think that collecting 25 pristine artefacts (including the mantid ones here) with a random max 15% drop chance for a pristine version, plus being lucky that it is the artefact that you need that pops up for the solving + being lucky that the right dig sites pop up.. is a bit too much of having to be lucky?

    I'm at my last pandaren artefact now, I have all "solve 20 artefacts of this" achievements. Whenever I use the magnificent Lorewalker Map to randomize my dig sites I get 95% of the time max 1 pandaren dig site out of 4.. when I have dug that one up 85% of all time no new pandaren dig site pops up, having to wait another 30 minutes to use a new map item or trying to dig up the others I don't need to have a 15% chance a pandaren dig site pops up to replace that one...
    Then when I finally get them, it is hell to finally get the right item that I need solving to pop up... and even after already 22 solves of that item, still no pristine version and then the endless cycle repeats...

    So Blizzard, please... I don't mind grinding towards something, but I would like something I can work towards without having to rely on pure luck.. For example, whenever you have 20+ versions of an artefact solved without pristine versions having shown up, let the % of the pristine ones go up by like 20% / solve or something.. It would still take time to get there, but at least we would know that we get closer every time... not the feeling that every time you hit solve you have the same "luck" to actually get it...

    Keeping people busy is good in a game, but don't make em wonder round in endless circles just cause you don't want to come up with anything better to do..
    If you knew what you would get then it wouldn't be archeology. It would be a crafting profession.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by SodiumChloride View Post
    They need to find some other way to entertain us. Timesinks are dated concept.
    Grinds != Content
    That's not the issue here. All Roleplay Games, especially MMOs, have lots of Timesinks. What we debate here is whether randomness is better or set in stone grinds. In Op's Example, he has to collect 20 Artifacts at random. So he could get the title after 20 Artifacts, or still be collecting after 300. While in a predetermined Environment MMO he would have been asked to collect 200 or so Artifacts and then be done for certain.

    What I wanted to add is that Blizzard does help out your Randomness on earlier Levels and with time:
    Example A) Quest Items drop more frequently when time passes, so you won't be stuck in one Quest for 3 Hours.
    Example B) Earlier Dungeons and out of Content Raids are tuned so the Group can do them even if some people lack Gear.
    Example C) Blizzard offers very many alternatives to random Mounts and Achievments. For Example, if the Blue Stonedrake mount didn't drop after 150 times, and the purple Stonedrake mount got snatched by a camper yet again, you can get the red Stonedrake with pure Skill over the Glory of Cataclysm Hero Achievment OR you can buy the yellow Stonedrake on the AH. And if you don't like the randomness of the Seeker of Knowledge title, then why don't you get a nonrandom Title like Herald of Titans, Firelord, the Exalted etc.

    Complaining about not receiving a random reward is like complaining about not winning the lottery. You know full well that you may or may not get the reward if you go for Archeology.
    Last edited by Fincher; 2013-09-01 at 05:57 PM.
    Capitalism, Ho!

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