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  1. #1
    Blademaster Stillen88's Avatar
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    [Feral] DoC Vs. HoTW for 5.4

    Ok so I'm deciding on what would be both more useful and higher in DPS for 5.4

    Comparison and uses i got out of the 2 in ToT:

    Ok so Using DoC in Throne was clearly the winner as the default talent to use. But i used HoTW in fights that had damage gimmics like Heroic Jin'rokh and Horrodin. Getting 1.5 million wrath crits was too good to pass up. so i suppose it was situational for me with the two talents in 5.2
    What can we see from the two in 5.4?:
    So to be honest, im Quite frankly over using healing touch in my rotation all together The RNG you get from the talent annoys me too.
    HoTW looks more promising than ever for 5.4 especially with all the agility we are gonna be getting off gear in the next patch. That Perma % increace on our massive pool of agility might end up doing us more favors....not to mention its less demanding on our rotations.

    However with the Recent buff to DoC "Feral proc now causes your next two melee abilities to deal 30% additional damage, up from 25%." Im back to contemplating DoC again.
    What does everyone think?
    Are you all going to stick to DoC?
    Change to HoTW?
    Or keep it Situational again?
    Last edited by Stillen88; 2013-08-29 at 12:26 AM.
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  2. #2
    RNG = random number generation.

    Not R&G.

    Have a nice day.

  3. #3
    I don't really understand how DoC is RNG, there really isn't an instance where you're using less than 5 combo points except in fringe cases and even then, it shouldn't matter. I don't know if there's 5.4 sims out but DoC will have to be ~5% better before I take it over Hotw. It's not worth the rotational complexity for anything less.

  4. #4
    ill go back to DoC once i dont have to prioritize two trinkets over it. When i use DoC now, i make the mistake to treat them as equal and often miss trinket procs

  5. #5
    From what I understand of the information coming from the FluidDruid, Nature's Vigil may be competitive with HoTW. DoC, now it has been buffed by another 5% will look to beat both NV and HoTW by what some might regard as a significant margin.

    About two thirds of the way down the page the relevant discussion starts, and is continued on page 9: http://fluiddruid.net/forum/viewtopi...4603&start=175
    Last edited by Themessiah; 2013-08-29 at 10:10 AM.

  6. #6
    DoC: More DPS, harder to play.
    HotW: Less DPS, easier to play, extremely strong raid CD.

    DoC has no RNG whatsoever unless you're consistently using finishers under 5 CP (which you shouldn't) so you should stop throwing around stupid phases that make no sense in an attempt to make yourself sound smart.

    Any Feral doing actual progression should be taking whatever talent that does the most DPS but should always be ready to swap to HotW whenever Tranqulity is required.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Agartha View Post
    I don't really understand how DoC is RNG, there really isn't an instance where you're using less than 5 combo points except in fringe cases and even then, it shouldn't matter. I don't know if there's 5.4 sims out but DoC will have to be ~5% better before I take it over Hotw. It's not worth the rotational complexity for anything less.
    DoC by itself is not RNG. Our trinkets are.
    What is being called RNG about DoC atm is the fact that there is a chance you won't have a PS proc ready for moments of procs. Think about your execute phase. It is already pure luck if you're able to sync rune+rentaki+tiger's fury and whatever else you've got. Now add the fact that you need to have a HT ready. (PS rune reduces your haste and crit, remember?)

    But I do think that the difficulty of DoC is quite overrated at the moment. With the amount of energy/combo points that we can generate, we don't really need to even pool energy anymore.

    - - - Updated - - -

    EDIT:
    DoC has no RNG whatsoever unless you're consistently using finishers under 5 CP (which you shouldn't) so you should stop throwing around stupid phases that make no sense in an attempt to make yourself sound smart.
    That's quite ignorant and condescending isn't it?
    Last edited by Karlzone; 2013-08-29 at 01:11 PM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Karlzone View Post
    EDIT:
    That's quite ignorant and condescending isn't it?
    Ignorant of what? That doesn't even make sense.

    If people want to throw terms and phrases around that make no sense so they can pretend they are theory crafting (or whatever, I don't know what they're trying to accomplish) then I have every right to tell them they're wrong in order to not spread misinformation to others.

  9. #9
    First of all you should ask yourself: Are you and your guild raiding to push ranks etc? If the answer is yes then you need to look at every individual fight on its merit and make the judgment on that. If you are probably not going to need to heal with HotW and are capable of pushing DoC to its maximum plus you're able to do that WHILE learning a new fight, not standing in fire etc then you have your answer. I'd be very surprised if anyone in the first few raids can play DoC 'perfectly' on the new fights, especially in heroic.

    DoC might give you that little bit extra dps if you play it extremely well but you aren't going to be doing much dps if you or the raid dies so you can't really go wrong with HotW; it might just save that one try where you kill it. And once you've killed stuff a couple of times and you know each fight inside out than you'll probably end up playing DoC because it's better overall.

    Edit: Plus playing HotW will save you from wanting to rip your hair out when you don't have NS for a free PS proc for that monster rip...ex dee. Good to know moonkins are putting NS to good use for instant battle resses!

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Glurp View Post
    Ignorant of what? That doesn't even make sense.

    If people want to throw terms and phrases around that make no sense so they can pretend they are theory crafting (or whatever, I don't know what they're trying to accomplish) then I have every right to tell them they're wrong in order to not spread misinformation to others.

    There are multiple ways what you claimed could be considered ignorant. One way would be on the basis that you deliver an “ought” claim concerning the way in which another individual should behave without apparent regard for their situation, information or perspective. Some may believe that anyone delivering an ought claim should be aware of the situation, information or perspective of the individual delivered that “ought”. Without such information some may believe you lack epistemic authority—authority which some may believe you unjustly award yourself, or rather, have not demonstrated to the audience in question.

    This leads us to the “condescending” part. What you said is condescending for two conjoined reasons. One because you seem to presume epistemic authority regarding what another individual “ought” to do and on that assumed authority deliver said judgement. Two because that said judgement was delivered in a way which might straightforwardly be thought of as rude. Together, I would say that these two conditions may imply that your comment was condescending.

    Hopefully this explanation will enable you to make sense of what Karlzone said, even if this isn’t exactly what Karlzone's claim was intended to entail. If I’ve thrown any phrases around that require further explanation, you can let me know and I will endeavour to get back to you.
    Last edited by Themessiah; 2013-08-29 at 04:41 PM.

  11. #11
    Yea let's all write fucking essays about why other posts are bad


    then again there's only 8 feral druids in the world so if we shit up the feral thread not many people will care

  12. #12
    Most progression Ferals take HotW even if they run DoC when the content is on farm. HotW is about all the raid utility Feral has. However if you absolutely love DoC then go with it if you can get a spot without it. I think the more compelling question is FoN or SotF?

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Agartha View Post
    I don't really understand how DoC is RNG, there really isn't an instance where you're using less than 5 combo points except in fringe cases and even then, it shouldn't matter. I don't know if there's 5.4 sims out but DoC will have to be ~5% better before I take it over Hotw. It's not worth the rotational complexity for anything less.
    depends if you have Tiger's Fury, Berserk up,Heroism or extra CP from crit or 2P set bonus,NS proc on low combos(SR;FB<25%) and lineing up this all with trinkets procs- who the fuck saying there is no RNG this talent involves
    of Sim it was better already dps wise, and it was enough as most ferals marked it as default choice.
    Nature's Swiftness got removed, utility talent that helped to get max of it which have to make it on pair with HoTW, but now it got even buffed for those 5% more dmg
    Last edited by Zstr; 2013-08-30 at 03:09 AM.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Zstr View Post
    depends if you have Tiger's Fury, Berserk up,Heroism or extra CP from crit or 2P set bonus,NS proc on low combos(SR;FB<25%) and lineing up this all with trinkets procs- who the fuck saying there is no RNG this talent involves
    of Sim it was better already dps wise, and it was enough as most ferals marked it as default choice.
    Nature's Swiftness got removed, utility talent that helped to get max of it which have to make it on pair with HoTW, but now it got even buffed for those 5% more dmg
    If you think that counts as the sort of RNG you need to consider in comparing talents then you're not thinking properly. By your logic HotW has just as much RNG because of the extra 6% Agility means critting is more valuable so your crit RNG means HotW is an RNG talent.
    Last edited by Glurp; 2013-08-30 at 04:15 AM.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Glurp View Post
    If you think that counts as the sort of RNG you need to consider in comparing talents then you're stupid. By your logic HotW has just as much RNG because of the extra 6% Agility means critting is more valuable so your crit RNG means HotW is an RNG talent.
    u calling me stupid when u can't even consider things yourself and make logical statement, calling others people stupid doesn't make you clever yourself
    ofc HoTW involves RNG, more crit less chance for lower number to roll on,more stable rotation and a lot less praying to luck's gods for linning DOC buff with abilites,trinkets procs,cds
    Last edited by Zstr; 2013-08-30 at 04:22 AM.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Glurp View Post
    If you think that counts as the sort of RNG you need to consider in comparing talents then you're not thinking properly. By your logic HotW has just as much RNG because of the extra 6% Agility means critting is more valuable so your crit RNG means HotW is an RNG talent.
    That didn't make much sense to me. Zstr has a very valid point.

    The removal of NS will make lining bleeds up with trinket procs and DoC depend on luck even more. The luck involved is the part that many ferals (including me) do not like about DoC.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Karlzone View Post
    That didn't make much sense to me. Zstr has a very valid point.

    The removal of NS will make lining bleeds up with trinket procs and DoC depend on luck even more. The luck involved is the part that many ferals (including me) do not like about DoC.
    RNG or not, it still has higher average dps and about the same worst-case distribution of hotw while having a slightly wider (and higher!) "lucky" dps distribution. Meaning if you have bad luck, then hotw and doc will pretty much be the same (especially since most of our RNG originates from trinkets anyway, which are the same for both specs) but if you're having a normal fight and playing well you should pull off more dps with DoC than with HotW which is the intended design anyway.

    The only time DoC pulls consistently less dps than HotW (post-buff at least) is when you play it badly. And lets face it, DoC isn't hard to play, it's just hard to put a heal on your bars and actually use it - you have to be extremely jet-lagged or stubborn (or both) to actually do very badly on DoC compared to HotW.

  18. #18
    NS isn't going away, it is becoming baseline for all druid specs. I use DoC and will probably continue to in 5.4 unless HotW's % agi sims as a dps gain past a certain ilvl.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Blackflag421 View Post
    NS isn't going away, it is becoming baseline for all druid specs.
    Please source

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Tazmon View Post
    Please source
    He's mistaken unless he works at Blizzard and has seen the next PTR build.

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