Martial Art "Food Chain"

[Teriz]

How is Kata useless when it's supposed to illustrate different ways to fight multiple opponents?

The thing is, one would need to already be at an advanced level to effectively apply such movements in a real situation. Hell, katas are shown the way they are because of that, they're supposed to be a demonstration and therefore there's quite a lot of circular, showy unecessary movement. When katas are practiced with that self defense notion in mind, that unnecessary stuff is immediately cast aside.

That's also the reason why a lot of senseis often say that you don't need that showy stuff. Karate, particulary shotokan, is a self defense martial art that is aimed to finish an attacking opponent with the least amount of movement in the least amount of time, therefore the simple stuff is enough for a irl situation.

I didn't say that Kata was useless, I said that it was unnecessary.

If the goal is to fight like the kata, then just train people to fight like the kata. Do it the way Bjj and Judo do it; Spend time showing the technique, then have your students spar for the rest of the class, using the techniques they just learned. Utilize boxing methodology, and teach footwork along with hand and feet techniques, then put your students in the ring or on the mat, and have them just go at it. Its simple.

The reality is that once that happens, you suddenly realize that 90% of Karate is useless and pointless. You're not going to be reverse punching, or doing knife hands when someone is tagging you in the face with jabs, hooks, and uppercuts. Your upper blocks and middle blocks don't mean a hill of beans against combinations to your head and your body. That cat stance, front stance, and whatever stance is useless because it makes you immobile and a sitting target to be picked apart from a variety of angles. This is why you hardly ever see anyone fight like a karate person is supposed to fight. Everyone who fights fights like a kickboxer when they strike, because boxing has proven to be the superior method of striking.

Instead of doing that, your instructor makes you drill kata all day, teaches you hand techniques and stances that you can never use, and fills your head with nonsense about unlocking the secrets of kata. All of that is the exact opposite of what would make you a better martial artist.

[Noomz]

Okay, put all of the Mcdojos, bad teachers, "it depends on the trainer", ect. arguments aside.

It seems that most people are starting to develop the idea of a Martial Art "food chain": on the top the most effective arts, and on the bottom the least effective. MMA and other "alive" arts seem to be on the top of everyone's list as they can be learned much quicker, while Tae Kwan Do always seems to be on the bottom.

What in your mind is the most effective art? The least effective? Why?

And where would you rank the "real" hapkido with sparring, bag work, ground work, grab defense, throws, strikes (no kicks above the belt), forms, and weapons? (Just Curious)

I will hold my opinions until we get a good discussion started. Please no flaming, we are all here to learn from each others views and reasons.

MMA learned quicker? You do realize that most MMA fighters have trained several different things? That's what makes it MIXED MARTIAL ARTS.

[Deleted]

And how is most karate, kung fu, and TKD taught these days?



Yeah, you really shouldn't knock them because you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

No, apart from studying jujitsu for 4 years, I have not clue about it obviously.

And how are most martial arts taught these days? badly, but thats true for 90% of martial arts, not just karate, TKD and whatever style of kung fu you were referring to.

personally I take great care in selecting clubs to train at. And the TKD I learnt is all about self defense, all about real world applications and not about competitions. In fact I really cant fight in comps anymore as I instinctively go for prohibited areas like neck or groin or knees.
Even things like MMA and BJJ have rules in how most people apply them, usually for comps, and people learn these and ironically take them over into real life....
As with any Martial art, the way its taught is key, not so much the style.
But you obviously have prejudices, ignorant as they are, so there is probably no point trying to make you see reason. I would ask why you think styles like TKD dont have chokes, or locks or holds. If you stay away from the whole WTF comp thing, an awful lot of TKD is locks and holds, as with many other styles you seams to dislike whilst knowing nothing about.


I've been in several real world situations where I've had to defend myself, and not once has it been one on one. Generally its not. And if I had gone for a lock or hold, then I'd have been in trouble as the others woudl have been free to take me out.
Holds and locks etc are great in comps and shit in real life. If you cant understand that, dont ever try to fight in the real world. Even one on one you cant rely on them, some people literally dont feel them at all, so you try a pain compliance hold, or joint lock and they will just ignore it, I've seen it happen.

- - - Updated - - -

How is Kata useless when it's supposed to illustrate different ways to fight multiple opponents?

never been a fan of that school of thought. Always seamed very artificial. With TKD (patterns) I was taught that each sequence is a combo as it were, with specific uses, not so much against one opponent before you take out another as its mostly taught. Made more sense to me, and I learnt a lot of applications for moves I woudl not have got from the more widespread method.
Not saying its wrong, it just strikes me as a bit odd.

take low block in TKD. Its not a block, there is no fucking way I am blocking a low kick with my arm like than, for a start I'd end up worse off, and secondly I'd be massively unbalanced and at a disadvantage. Thats not to say the movement is not useful, its very useful, its just not a block no matter what the name is. (to understand why its like that you'd need to know a lot about the history and evolution of TKD, which I wont bore you with).;

[Spectral]

It sure seems like success in modern MMA almost requires a background in either BJJ or wrestling and a significant amounts of training in both. I don't know that I'd want to really rank martial arts, but if I was going to set out to learn something to defend myself, I'd be inclined to go that direction first.

[Teriz]

No, apart from studying jujitsu for 4 years, I have not clue about it obviously.

If it was Japanese Jujitsu, you wasted 4 years of your life.

If it was Brazilian Jujitsu, you have no clue what you're talking about.

And how are most martial arts taught these days? badly, but thats true for 90% of martial arts, not just karate, TKD and whatever style of kung fu you were referring to.

personally I take great care in selecting clubs to train at. And the TKD I learnt is all about self defense, all about real world applications and not about competitions. In fact I really cant fight in comps anymore as I instinctively go for prohibited areas like neck or groin or knees.
Even things like MMA and BJJ have rules in how most people apply them, usually for comps, and people learn these and ironically take them over into real life....
As with any Martial art, the way its taught is key, not so much the style.
But you obviously have prejudices, ignorant as they are, so there is probably no point trying to make you see reason. I would ask why you think styles like TKD dont have chokes, or locks or holds. If you stay away from the whole WTF comp thing, an awful lot of TKD is locks and holds, as with many other styles you seams to dislike whilst knowing nothing about.

How often would a TKD stylist practice chokes or locks? How proficient would a TKD stylist be at utilizing chokes and locks when 90% of the time they're doing kicks during their training? Let's stop being silly please. TKD is known for many things. Applying locks and chokes isn't one of them. Just because they exist in the system doesn't mean that the exponents of said art know how to use them effectively. How many Judo black belts do you see using palm strikes? Yeah they're in there, they just don't train them enough to ever use them effectively.

I've been in several real world situations where I've had to defend myself, and not once has it been one on one. Generally its not. And if I had gone for a lock or hold, then I'd have been in trouble as the others woudl have been free to take me out.
Holds and locks etc are great in comps and shit in real life. If you cant understand that, dont ever try to fight in the real world. Even one on one you cant rely on them, some people literally dont feel them at all, so you try a pain compliance hold, or joint lock and they will just ignore it, I've seen it happen.

Ah yeah, the classic "grappling doesn't work against multiple opponents" argument. People use that when they try to discredit the effectiveness of the arts that actually work versus arts like TKD that could actually get you killed if you tried it.

[Deleted]

If it was Brazilian Jujitsu, you have no clue what you're talking about.



How often would a TKD stylist practice chokes or locks? How proficient would a TKD stylist be at utilizing chokes and locks when 90% of the time they're doing kicks during their training? Let's stop being silly please. TKD is known for many things. Applying locks and chokes isn't one of them. Just because they exist in the system doesn't mean that the exponents of said art know how to use them effectively. How many Judo black belts do you see using palm strikes? Yeah they're in there, they just don't train them enough to ever use them effectively.



Ah yeah, the classic "grappling doesn't work against multiple opponents" argument. People use that when they try to discredit the effectiveness of the arts that actually work versus arts like TKD that could actually get you killed if you tried it.

/sigh. I really wonder why I bother, but still.

No I have not wasted 4 years, yes I do know what I am talking about, but whatever.

Um, every training session is how often a TKD practioner of a decent club will practise locks and holds, its pretty much in everything. Yes kicks are important as are strikes, but there is an awful lot of locks, holds, even floor work. Its a relatively modern martial art, it took what works, yes it evolved from arts focussed on kicks and strikes, but thats not all it is by a long shot.
Stop thinking what you see on youtube or in WTF comps is representative of the style as a whole.TKD is known for kicks yes, but its your ignorance that makes you believe thats all it is.



Yes the multiple opponents thing keeps comming up, as its a bloody massive issue. Its not about discrediting arts, it recognising that some arts work better in certain siutations than others. One on one, yes go for the lock or hold. Against more than one, you try that, its your funeral. I've been in several self defense situations, and used a combination of TKD and wing chun mainly, its never degenerated to a floor fight and I've never had to kick above knee height. Its not got me killed yet. Thing is, if you get your direct techniques down, you can avoid rolling round on the floor and getting stomped by the blokes mates, despite havign him in a perfect submission hold or choke hold.

Anyway, not asking you to drop your current styles and rush of to learn another, just asking that you open your eyes and try to look beyond your own prejudices and the PR from your current style. I try to train around as much as possible to learn new things, so I see a lot of different people in differnt styles, and an awful lot suffer from what you appear to suffer from, confirmation bias, you believe your art is best and so every other one sucks. Its wrong and severely limiting. I'd advise taking a much more open minded approach, but I doubt it will happen.

[Romeo83x]

Someone bothered to put together a pretty good video highlighting how wing chun sucks vs pretty much everything:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czDuH0R73kg

00:01 = Wing Chun Vs Combat Sambo
05:22 = Wing Chun Vs Wrestling
07:13 = Wing Chun Vs MMA
07:44 = Wing Chun Vs Kickboxing
08:44 = Wing Chun Vs Karate
10:01 = Wing Chun Vs MMA
12:45 = Wing Chun Vs Muay Thai
14:45 = Wing Chun Vs Japanese Karate
17:59 = Wing Chun Vs Kickboxing
20:26 = Wing Chun Vs Wrestling
26:06 = Wing Chun Vs Karate
26:40 = Wing Chun Vs Kung Fu
34:39 = Wing Chun Vs Karate
35:30 = Wing Chun Vs BJJ
41:05 = Wing Chun Vs Boxing
43:50 = Wing Chun Vs Karate
44:32 = Wing Chun Vs Muay Thai
46:34 = Wing Chun Vs Karate
48:14 = Wing Chun Vs Karate
51:20 = Wing Chun Vs Kyokushin Karate
53:22 = Wing Chun Vs Muay Thai

[Grizelda]

I think mind set has a lot to do with victory. Someone may have taught you how to do all these horrible things to people but do you have the mindset to actually apply them?

Do you have the stones to stick your thumb in his eye socket and scoop it out? Victory.

Are you going to dance around in a circle yelling, "come on, make a move..." Then you are meat for a real operator.

[Deleted]

I TRAIN UFC UFC IS BEST ART FOR FIGHTING

Nah I kid , Uh its quite hard to do this due to alot of martial arts being.. completely different , for example BJJ specialising In submission wrestling ect and on the ground on otherhands Muay thai is stand up and striking , with the occasional clinche takedown

[Grimbold21]

I didn't say that Kata was useless, I said that it was unnecessary.

If the goal is to fight like the kata, then just train people to fight like the kata. Do it the way Bjj and Judo do it; Spend time showing the technique, then have your students spar for the rest of the class, using the techniques they just learned. Utilize boxing methodology, and teach footwork along with hand and feet techniques, then put your students in the ring or on the mat, and have them just go at it. Its simple.

The reality is that once that happens, you suddenly realize that 90% of Karate is useless and pointless. You're not going to be reverse punching, or doing knife hands when someone is tagging you in the face with jabs, hooks, and uppercuts. Your upper blocks and middle blocks don't mean a hill of beans against combinations to your head and your body. That cat stance, front stance, and whatever stance is useless because it makes you immobile and a sitting target to be picked apart from a variety of angles. This is why you hardly ever see anyone fight like a karate person is supposed to fight. Everyone who fights fights like a kickboxer when they strike, because boxing has proven to be the superior method of striking.

Instead of doing that, your instructor makes you drill kata all day, teaches you hand techniques and stances that you can never use, and fills your head with nonsense about unlocking the secrets of kata. All of that is the exact opposite of what would make you a better martial artist.

Well then i'll have to disrespect the OP's suggestion and say that it all comes down to which type of karate one practices, the sensei you have and how he teaches it, the main goal of your dojo.

I can only speak for myself and the dojo in which i practice. There's no such thing as "fighting like the kata". A kata is just a part of karate and, like i said, serves the purpose of illustrating how to fight multiple people in different ways.

Look, my training sessions are essentially divided into 4 parts.

- First we practice basic movements in it's, let's say, rigid form, with what you think are the cat stances and what not.
- Second we practice those same techniques with a partner.
- Third is kumite, which, for those who may not know, is essentially the application of those basic and other advanced techniques in a more relaxed fighting form, because, in most situations, it's true, one will have a hard time fighting make use of your arsenal in a more rigid stance.
- Fourth is kata and that i already explained what is.

Third and fourth may be switched in order.

Unlike many schools or senseis, ours does actually take the time to explain the different uses for a technique, otherwise we'd be swinging our arms into the air and would probably get our arses wooped in a irl situation.

But saying that stances are completely useless is i reckon a bit unfair. It would depend on a multitude of variables. Let's picture one that can favor that argument: a dude is standing mid range from me and tries to hit me in the groin or stomach with a straight kick. A gendan barai in zenkutsu dachi position will probably work ( just google those terms :P ) because not only does that allow me to defend the kick but opens up a series of possibilites that i can use right after.

As for kumite, it would depend on which type of kumite you practice more. I personally feel that WKF (world karate federation) kumite is softer and doesn't really help you in a real fight, while JKA (japan karate association) is a much harder, trained to bear and hit type and actually serves the purpose of a fight.

In regards to the comparison between boxing and karate, man, like everything, it comes down to the guys' skill level. This past summer my sensei organized an activity where different martials arts trained together. We got the chance to practice with some boxers / kick boxers and immediatelly we noticed that the challenged, mainly agaisnt a boxer, would be to deal with his range.
Like i said in my previous post, shotokan karate is a mid range style, where as boxing is a short distance fighting style, so one would need to adjust.



That video is a good example of why tournament oriented kumite would get your arse handed to you in a real fight. The karateka is using a kumite style which is only usable in competition where your goal is gain points by hitting your opponent quickly and getting out. In the video she doesn't really do anything.

[Romeo83x]

Do you have the stones to stick your thumb in his eye socket and scoop it out? Victory.

People like you fail to realize, that it's downright impossible to even get into such a position where eyescooping would be possible.

Good luck trying to get your hand anywhere NEAR a boxers head, let alone near his eyes (someone who has literally trained for years to not let the other guy touch his face)

Here's a good example:

[nocturnus]

Okay, put all of the Mcdojos, bad teachers, "it depends on the trainer", ect. arguments aside.

It seems that most people are starting to develop the idea of a Martial Art "food chain": on the top the most effective arts, and on the bottom the least effective. MMA and other "alive" arts seem to be on the top of everyone's list as they can be learned much quicker, while Tae Kwan Do always seems to be on the bottom.

What in your mind is the most effective art? The least effective? Why?

And where would you rank the "real" hapkido with sparring, bag work, ground work, grab defense, throws, strikes (no kicks above the belt), forms, and weapons? (Just Curious)

I will hold my opinions until we get a good discussion started. Please no flaming, we are all here to learn from each others views and reasons.

MMA is a mixture of the best aspects of stand-up fighting disciplines and grappling, which obviously makes it unparalleled.

The martial art food chain in my opinion:

1. Brazilian Jiu Jitsu - Gi and no-gi
1.5 Sambo
2. Kosen Judo
3. Greco Roman wrestling purely for take-downs
4. Kick Boxing / Muay Thai / Boxing
5. Kyokushin Karate - the real kind and not the watered-down non sense that's being taught nowadays.

I wouldn't waste any time on things that don't work, like Wushu, Win Chun (Kung-fu), Aikido, Taekwondo, etc. Also, whenever you join a gym and there's no full-contact sparring after the drills, leave. You do not learn anything if you're not exposed to an actual fighting scenario every training.

My advice? Go with BJJ and never look back. It will literally change your life.

Nowadays a smart "kung fu master" probably wouldn't get into the ring with them without some ground training of their own.

Mate, kung-fu is great for epic films like Ip Man, but in actual life, nothing about it makes sense. It just doesn't work - at all.

Also, the Gracies, with exception of Roger maybe, aren't at the top of the BJJ food chain anymore. They haven't been for a very long time.

[Tziva]

Mate, kung-fu is great for epic films like Ip Man, but in actual life, nothing about it makes sense. It just doesn't work - at all.

If you follow the chain of actual discussion, at no point did anyone say that kung fu was a super practical, realistic martial art. You're arguing with no one here.

Also, the Gracies, with exception of Roger maybe, aren't at the top of the BJJ food chain anymore. They haven't been for a very long time.

They do't have to be the top of the food chain for what I said to be a valid statement. The point that should be taken from my statement is that in a post UFC era, no one with any sense would enter a fight without ground training, no matter how good their stand up/striking/kicking skills were. In 2019, it it is extremely apparent to anyone who pays any attention at all that cross training makes the best fighter.

I don't think that is a statement anyone would argue with.

[nocturnus]

If you follow the chain of actual discussion, at no point did anyone say that kung fu was a super practical, realistic martial art. You're arguing with no one here.

They do't have to be the top of the food chain for what I said to be a valid statement. The point that should be taken from my statement is that in a post UFC era, no one with any sense would enter a fight without ground training, no matter how good their stand up/striking/kicking skills were. In 2019, it it is extremely apparent to anyone who pays any attention at all that cross training makes the best fighter.

I don't think that is a statement anyone would argue with.

I might've misunderstood your statement about a smart "kung-fu master". I seemed like you meant that one of those would stand a chance against a grappler with some ground training, which I think is inaccurate.

I wasn't discussing the Gracies position with you, I can see how you'd think that though, my bad. I just felt like emphasizing that they aren't at the top of the grappling game anymore, especially in the no-gi scene.

[JudithJohnson]

when I see word 'chain' I only think about the song by Fleetwood Mac

[Piglord]

If you follow the chain of actual discussion, at no point did anyone say that kung fu was a super practical, realistic martial art. You're arguing with no one here.


They do't have to be the top of the food chain for what I said to be a valid statement. The point that should be taken from my statement is that in a post UFC era, no one with any sense would enter a fight without ground training, no matter how good their stand up/striking/kicking skills were. In 2019, it it is extremely apparent to anyone who pays any attention at all that cross training makes the best fighter.

I don't think that is a statement anyone would argue with.

You got necrowned

[Tziva]

You got necrowned

Everything in this thread is still relevant. It's a timeless topic.

[nocturnus]

Everything in this thread is still relevant. It's a timeless topic.

Pretty much anything that involves physical exercise seems irrelevant on mmo-c. Yet, threads about Apple vs Android last 400 pages.

What else can you expect on an MMORPG website.

[Tziva]

guys, please stay on topic

[prwraith]

I work as a doorman at a pub, and I've seen quite a few fights during my time.
What I can say for certain is that most of the fights ends on the ground.

For this exact reason, a bunch of undercover guys used to train at my judo gym. They used to say that almost every fight ends up on the ground and they found judo to be the most useful, because of all the pins, chokes, and armbars.