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  1. #961
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    It's ironic that you say raiding will be a niche again, yet bring up DS, which was when LFR was created lol.

    And raiding definitely told a story before, despite being as you call it, a "niche"... typically it was the perfect place because after overcoming an epic challenge, you get much more than loot. Keep in mind the game has been massively successful with this formula since the beginning.


    And LFR not being like regular raiding, IMO is why you don't really see many posts talking about how awesome LFR is - and why the subs are going down. The game can have broader appeal without having to re-hash stuff, as I've pointed it, it's been done many times before. I see you are really sticking to your guns on this whole "blizzard cannot ever make raids unless they make LFR, because it will only be cost effective this way" yet, the opposite has been true
    since launch.
    Because DS is likely what you'd get in terms of reused assets. It may be worse than that. It may be slightly better. Hard to say without access to their internal metrics.

    What you've pointed is that you seem to think content for you (raids) and content for OTHER PEOPLE (remember that principle) can be created simultaneously without one impacting the other. This is obviously not true as the economic realities of creating this massive raids impact everything else in the game to the point that the developers created lfr to justify it's consumption. The content does not magically appear and pull itself out of it's own ass and Blizzard is not made of unlimited resources ESPECIALLY time or qualified people which is the biggest thing for them. Maybe with titan being scaled back they'll be able to do more but at the time of the production of mists and for it's entire cycle (and potentially for the next expansion to) this has not and will not happen. Raiders WON with LFR. Congratulations. The developers sided with you and your favorite content and you got your cake. Enjoy eating it to.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    Ok sleep nap time for real after this. I know plenty of people that were into warcraft because of the whole "forming an army" aspect. Keep in mind that before the MMO, warcraft was a huge RTS series that was exactly that. So in that sense, I think raiding being in the game was a huge aspect, if you couldn't ever form an epic army, it would've been a big let down for many players (such as myself). In that sense, I feel it is totally justified. It's like if Call of Duty only had a single player mode... again, while some would still play it and the company would save money, a lot of players would not be interested (and a lot of hype and attracting new players would die in the process).


    Also, there are plenty of people that don't do normal mode raids here. I don't think it's a stretch to assume they didn't do "normal mode raids" in BC, do you agree?


    And I think LFR's "success" came largely from it being the main source for progression for almost all players - there were alternatives, but they paled in comparison to the chance for reward and effort in LFR. Essentially, it was where the rewards were at, so people flocked there. If they put the rewards in a different place, would LFR be successful? I think not.
    You keep going back to I KNOW PEOPLE. As if your anecdotes are meaningful in view of the evidence and statements from the devs. Hey I know someone who thinks he or she is the queen of England. IT MUST BE TRUE! It isn't justified and the developers have TOLD US THIS. They've told us that LFR justifies the content creation. Period. Based SOLELY on player participation and not the mythical fairy tale universe you live in SWP did not pay for itself in terms of entertaining the developers audience. Most people didn't know a fucking thing about raiding. They were stuck lvling and if they managed to hit 60 they had a long fucking grind ahead of them and either quit or rerolled another alt. Raiding had ZERO POINT ZERO appeal to those folks and frankly outside of the tiny minority of people who did the raids it had very little appeal in general. It's not hard to see why. Even if some johnny come lately get's it in his fucking head that raiding is the thing it's likely much more likely that they hit lvl 60 and get burnt out even just trying to get to raid then actually spending time raiding. It's more likely they find out raiding isn't their thing or that they can't commit to the raid schedule or have no desire to deal with 24 other assholes or a whole host of other barriers to entry that they can't or won't overcome. That's what lfr does. It's an attempt to remove as many barriers to entry as possible to make raiding as accessible as possible so it JUSTIFIES ITS PRODUCTION COST. That's the reality. Tell me more fantasies about armies.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-09-10 at 06:53 AM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  2. #962
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    No it wouldn't. Socialization and challenge is not going to change by taking away LFR. The only thing you're going to do is make even more people quit. There is still plenty of socialization and challenge in the upper tiers. Heroic raiding is alive and well. We're not getting any socialization and challenge on the lower end because the ramp up to raiding that Heroic Dungeons used to provide is gone. Taking away LFR isn't going to bring it back.


    I honestly have never seen anyone demand nerfs. I've seen players leave because content has become too difficult for their guild to tackle, and I've seen Blizzard put out nerfs to stem the flow of outgoing players, but I have yet to see a casual player demand nerfs. I challenge you to link even five posts off the Blizzard forums where a casual demands nerfs. It's not going to happen.

    Yes it would. Encouraging people to socialize worked in the game before, assuming that it would stop working for no reason is just silly. Would people quit? Yes, just like some quit because of stuff like LFR and other overnerfed content being in the game right now.

    There's no demands for nerfs now because almost everything has been nerfed into the ground. You can get from 1 to 90 without ever having to partner up with somebody for a quest, you can go into dungeons and pull a whole room, you can (as shown in a youtube video) afk through heroic 5 mans, get enough gear to get into LFR, and then AFK everything in LFR. If you played around at the start of Cata, you would've seen those demands for nerfs.

  3. #963
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    .

    There's no demands for nerfs now.
    ToT was NERFED THREE TIMES in addition the ilvl upgrade system (a stealth nerf in itself). In addition to this another difficulty was created to sate the people who found normals to hard. Their are demands for nerfs.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  4. #964
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Raiding is far to time consuming even at lfr level. Raiding in no form is casual friendly. Dungeons and potentially scenarios to are bite sized friendly content. They currently do not offer enough reward motivation to make it so.
    If you honestly think LFR "raiding" is too time consuming you shouldn't play this game, I don't understand how this game HAS to cater to everyone from the single guy to the family man with 2 jobs and 16 dogs... If YOU don't have time that's NOT the game or the game developers problem!
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  5. #965
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    If you honestly think LFR "raiding" is too time consuming you shouldn't play this game, I don't understand how this game HAS to cater to everyone from the single guy to the family man with 2 jobs and 16 dogs... If YOU don't have time that's NOT the game or the game developers problem!
    Actually it ultimately is the developers problem. The players have ZERO responsibility to the game and can leave at a whim. The developers have a responsibility to the company or presumably they do at any rate. I guess they could not give a fuck that johnny casual leaves but I mean they won't last long if they do. They'll be replaced shortly by somebody who does and will bring increased revenue back into the game. Or hell at this point stems the bleeding.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-09-10 at 07:04 AM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  6. #966
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    It's ironic that you say raiding will be a niche again, yet bring up DS, which was when LFR was created lol.
    Not really when you understand how it happened. It was rushed into the game at the last minute to prop up the subscriber numbers for the last patch of Cataclysm. It was originally planned for MoP which is why it was such an unfinished mess when it was originally released. I'll leave it to someone else to look up the links for that but they're out there somewhere.

    Raid design without LFR will certainly be less than it is now. Probably much less. There are any number of interviews about that as well.

    Mostly what I see these days are a lot of people that don't realize the fight over LFR is over and has been for some time. Just about everyone who's anyone at Blizzard has said or confirmed that it's not going anywhere. It may be fun to pretend to fight about it on forums but it's really just a waste (as is this post since it won't change anyone's mind). It's really true sometimes that those dedicated to raiding in its purest, most pristine form are their own worst enemies. It's a little ironic though to know that a significant percentage of those who talk about it the loudest don't play and therefore don't really get a voice in the matter.
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  7. #967
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    I think you're vastly overestimating LFR's impact on the raiding community.
    I don't. I think the concept of "raiding" has been dealt a merciful deathblow at the end of a lengthy illness, and that five or six years from now it will be almost completely irrelevant to online gaming.

    Consider:

    * Ten years ago the premier raiding experience was still 80 or 100 EverQuest poopsockers zerging a non-instanced boss to death on a schedule that actually had to be negotiated with other raiding guilds on the server.

    * Eight years ago WoW came out and the premier raid became 40 people in an instance.

    * Six years ago BC came out and raids became 25 people, or maybe even a mere 10 just once.

    * Four years ago WOTLK came out, and raids became 25 or 10 people, all the way through.

    * Two years ago LFR came out and the raiding community imploded, based on the amount of QQ heard since.

    * Then one day enough hardcores finally posted enough instantly-downvoted "remove LFR" threads on the WoW general forum and Blizzard finally came to their senses. LFR was ripped out of the game, casuals were all inspired to be like their hardcore heroes, raiding flourished once more as everyone looked on in awe at epics that were actually epic, and WoW abruptly shot up to seventy million subscribers.

    Yeah, no, that last one is just the coma fantasy the "raiding scene" will drool about as it's unplugged from the machine and finally left to die. The course of history has been pretty clear over the years, and it's not going to magically change.

  8. #968
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    If you honestly think LFR "raiding" is too time consuming you shouldn't play this game, I don't understand how this game HAS to cater to everyone from the single guy to the family man with 2 jobs and 16 dogs... If YOU don't have time that's NOT the game or the game developers problem!
    The only thing time consuming about LFR is the queue time which is, for a lot of people, time lost and wasted. It's another reason why putting LFR aside and leaving it to those who want to do it is the best thing and to try to get one's self into a guild for the more organized and social form of raiding.
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  9. #969
    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    There's no demands for nerfs now because almost everything has been nerfed into the ground. You can get from 1 to 90 without ever having to partner up with somebody for a quest, you can go into dungeons and pull a whole room, you can (as shown in a youtube video) afk through heroic 5 mans, get enough gear to get into LFR, and then AFK everything in LFR. If you played around at the start of Cata, you would've seen those demands for nerfs.
    I played at the start of Cata, and I saw many players leave. They typically mentioned something like, "The difficulty in this game is just too insane for me to deal with at the end of my day. I'm going to check out SWTOR for a bit and then come back. Then again I may not." More often than not they didn't come back. I don't know of a single one of those people who posted an "I Quit" letter on the Blizzard forums. They just let their subscription lapse and went about their business.

  10. #970
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    Mostly what I see these days are a lot of people that don't realize the fight over LFR is over and has been for some time.
    Why you gotta ruin their fun (and mine) for? I mean seriously dude. Giving them the answer like that. Almost feels like cheating.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    The only thing time consuming about LFR is the queue time which is, for a lot of people, time lost and wasted. It's another reason why putting LFR aside and leaving it to those who want to do it is the best thing and to try to get one's self into a guild for the more organized and social form of raiding.
    Time spent in que is pretty bad but it's made worse when the group is shit or you get into a partial run only to have to que again for another run. Actually even when you do kill a boss it's often time lost and wasted as you get jack shit for it other than a bag of dick all and some fairly worthless valor. It's not very casual friendly sorry.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  11. #971
    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    If you honestly think LFR "raiding" is too time consuming you shouldn't play this game, I don't understand how this game HAS to cater to everyone from the single guy to the family man with 2 jobs and 16 dogs... If YOU don't have time that's NOT the game or the game developers problem!
    What you fail to understand is that it is the game developers' problem! If I quit the game because it no longer appeals to me I get a few hours per week of my time back and save $15 a month. In the meantime, Blizzard loses my $15 a month. When enough of those $15 a month subscriptions go, the revenue declines. Developers aren't developing just for the sheer joy of pleasing raiders; they also have to feed their families! It is especially their problem when a significant demographic loses interest in their game.

  12. #972
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    Developers aren't developing just for the sheer joy of pleasing raiders
    It's better to say Blizzard Activision or the business isn't just developing for raiders only. Ghostcrawler et all I don't know anymore. I think they are seriously stuck on stupid on this and can't imagine that people would turn their nose at raids.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  13. #973
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Why you gotta ruin their fun (and mine) for? I mean seriously dude. Giving them the answer like that. Almost feels like cheating.
    Sorry about that. Lost my head for a moment.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Time spent in que is pretty bad but it's made worse when the group is shit or you get into a partial run only to have to que again for another run. Actually even when you do kill a boss it's often time lost and wasted as you get jack shit for it other than a bag of dick all and some fairly worthless valor. It's not very casual friendly sorry.
    It is for me but I have advantages. My playing partner is a healer so I go in on those queues which are rarely more than a couple of minutes. I understand the problem others face though. I've never really felt the need to have to run LFR either and never really quite sympathize with those heroic types who will do anything for their guild in real life but spend too much time writing petty complaints about it on forums. Lastly, as I've said a few times in the last week and undoubtedly at least once in this thread my LFR runs generally go OK although coming in on a partial run is annoying. But then, I don't spend a ton of time in queue in any case so another queue isn't a huge deal personally.

    Best advice, sleep with a healer. Makes all the difference.
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  14. #974
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    It's better to say Blizzard Activision or the business isn't just developing for raiders only. Ghostcrawler et all I don't know anymore. I think they are seriously stuck on stupid on this and can't imagine that people would turn their nose at raids.
    Just wait. The march of history is almost over, when it comes to this topic, and Ghostcrawler and friends will have no one to cater to soon.

  15. #975
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post

    Best advice, sleep with a healer. Makes all the difference.
    Mmmm I tried that once. Got into a fight. Hell hath no fury like a healer scorned... Bitch life gripped me into eye sore... and then bubbled herself and ran away
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-09-10 at 07:33 AM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  16. #976
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    Sorry about that. Lost my head for a moment.

    - - - Updated - - -



    It is for me but I have advantages. My playing partner is a healer so I go in on those queues which are rarely more than a couple of minutes. I understand the problem others face though. I've never really felt the need to have to run LFR either and never really quite sympathize with those heroic types who will do anything for their guild in real life but spend too much time writing petty complaints about it on forums. Lastly, as I've said a few times in the last week and undoubtedly at least once in this thread my LFR runs generally go OK although coming in on a partial run is annoying. But then, I don't spend a ton of time in queue in any case so another queue isn't a huge deal personally.

    Best advice, sleep with a healer. Makes all the difference.
    Hi, i am a healer!


    But i am pretty sure a Tank is even better.

  17. #977
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    It's better to say Blizzard Activision or the business isn't just developing for raiders only. Ghostcrawler et all I don't know anymore. I think they are seriously stuck on stupid on this and can't imagine that people would turn their nose at raids.
    I imagine that Ghostcrawler is drawing a pretty hefty salary right now. They're based in California so I bet he's in the low six figure range. WoW isn't an open source labor of love running on donations and good will. It's a for-profit game that is developed and distributed through a publicly owned corporation. I guarantee that someone is taking note of the downward subscription trend! Maybe the developers don't give a damn, but anyone who has developed software before knows that developers only get so much input into which features get added.

  18. #978
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimble View Post
    Just wait. The march of history is almost over, when it comes to this topic, and Ghostcrawler and friends will have no one to cater to soon.
    Question is as subs continue to decrease how long can they go saving raids in lieu of everything else in the game? Imagine if the game dwindled to say a million or two. Would we get new bgs? Would get timeless isle or just a raid instead? what else would go out the window?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    I imagine that Ghostcrawler is drawing a pretty hefty salary right now. They're based in California so I bet he's in the low six figure range. WoW isn't an open source labor of love running on donations and good will. It's a for-profit game that is developed and distributed through a publicly owned corporation. I guarantee that someone is taking note of the downward subscription trend! Maybe the developers don't give a damn, but anyone who has developed software before knows that developers only get so much input into which features get added.
    I should note I really do like Ghostcrawler for the most part. He's done some stupid shit (the wow dungeons are hard blog comes to mind) but he can acknowledge that and in the past hes acknowledged numerous and plenty faults with the game. They just seem to be so fucking stuck on raiding is everything man. I don't get it. I don't want them to be fired I'd rather they reevaluate decisions they made or fundamental assertions they have. I'd rather them actually diversify content and not pay lip service to it in favor of really just making one kind of content.

    Right now while I do agree somebody is taking note I don't think their getting pressed to much. It reminds me of that Metallica album Lulu. Lulu is a terrible fucking album but the guys who made it (lou reed and metallica) had ultimate creative freedom and I think to a large extent the developers do now and it's produced a monstrosity without constraint or without enough constraint. I imagine they were given an option move away from raiding or broaden the appeal of raiding instead of simple being told move away from raiding as an end game model. Maybe lfr was just another iteration of the raiding model. It's hard to say. Boy I'd like to be a fly on the wall.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-09-10 at 07:36 AM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  19. #979
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmowin View Post
    My question is how exactly did the casual "ruin" WoW?
    People who play in a casual sense.. who don't necessarily have 18 hours a day in free-time to play the game and/or aren't in a raiding guild.. did not ruin the game. What ruins the feel of this game, or any other online game, is mostly attributable to the attitudes of the people playing it. That's everyone from the guy who criticizes your game-play with 'L2P noob LOL' (and gives no constructive feedback), all the way to the douche-bags who pull a boss and then leave a dungeon/raid group.

    Blizzard has been far too secretive and seemingly hands-off in their approach to dealing with such problem elements. GM ticket responses all state that 'the report will be investigated and appropriate actions taken'.. and yet leaves victims of douchebaggery to wonder if anything ever really happens. Part of the problem lies in the anonymity people hide behind online. Their reasoning is, 'Oh I can pull this boss, leave group and escape unharmed while they die. Too funny! I'll never get busted!' If something happens to such a person, only that person knows of it (and maybe that person's closest friends). Otherwise, we see nothing.

    Blizzard seriously needs to institute name-and-shame tactics for such individuals. Their character(s) should be rendered into corpses, shoved onto pikes outside the capital city Auction Houses, and clear tooltips/signs made viewable to denote who it is and why that person ended up there. The toon(s) in such a situation should be unplayable for 24 hours of actual play-time, not real-time hours. The other characters on that person's account should have their speech privileges revoked entirely - no tradechat trolling, no LFG, nothing at all. Those other characters should be given the equivalent of a deserter debuff that also prevents them from using any que of any type (BG, LFD, LFR) and entering any instance or raid for 24 hours of actual play-time. Penalize their experience gains to only 10% of their normal possible gain (given rested or not, BoA gear or not, etc). Make these people who foul things up for the rest of us actually feel some pain, and let us who have been victimized by that behavior at various times and various ways actually sense a true and present justice.. instead of receiving a form-letter response in-game and wondering what, if anything, actually happened to him/her/it.

    I'll stop there. Agree if you like; disagree if you wish. I stand by what I've written here. Empowered to do it, I'd make it happen immediately.
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  20. #980
    Quote Originally Posted by roahn the warlock View Post
    Casual players tend to be more toxic. Or just the new generation of players are toxic.

    I should add Bad casual players are the absolute worst and are what most people are talking about when they say Casual.
    Wannabe poser elitists are the most toxic players if you look at this forum. Those special snowflakes are the people who demand exclusive content and all of Blizzard resources tailor-made for them. Everybody else has glass half full but theirs is always half empty.


    Quote Originally Posted by roahn the warlock View Post
    Other theory. Casuals demanded LFG, with LFG you get the 4-chan of gaming.

    These theories are both evident with Brawler's guild. Players give buffs, are helpful, give rezzes, give advice. This is because (At least at the start) Only good players can handle Brawling, That and it is server based, meaning dicks are quickly shunned (Like it was in TBC)
    Brawler's Guild has been CRZ from day one, throwing your idea out of the window.
    Never going to log into this garbage forum again as long as calling obvious troll obvious troll is the easiest way to get banned.
    Trolling should be.

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