Did casuals ruin WoW and if so how?

[wych]

Blizzard ruined the Game because they casualised the Game until it was unplayable. They removed every complex part and that removed alot of fun. And all these Retard-Finder things were the deathblow to the Game. Right now you can level solo from 1-90 no problem. You don't have to communicate with a another person.
And the worst part is that this were all unneeded changes. Casuals had enough to do in TBC and most of them liked TBC way more than Casualysm and Pandaland.



LOL? They removed that???? You don't need Vials for Potions anymore? wtf??? And all the Hunter things that they changed were a fucking joke! My Level70 Hunter still has the 2H Weapon from Kael'Thas I wore for such a long time - and the 2 ArmorPen Daggers out of the Trollinstance in TBC. And now they are worthless.
And why they removed all the petsystems (loyality, training, different attackspeeds, walkspeeds etc) is just fucking retarded.


Concl:
Blizzard casualised the Game so much that even the Casuals are bored with how easy it has become.

Carrying a ton of meat around to feed your pet every few hours wasn't difficult, nor were manually leveling pets and keeping them around for loyalty.

Pet speeds were normalised because they didn't want to force you into taking the same couple pets if you wanted to play the game optimally. I remember spending 3 weeks around Badlands looking for Broken Tooth because he had 1.0 attack speed, it wasn't difficult it was just annoying.

Now, unless my raid needs a specific buff I can choose any pet in the entire game I want, the ones I feel look best.

[DrSteveBrule]

Blizzard ruined the Game because they casualised the Game until it was unplayable. They removed every complex part and that removed alot of fun.

In truth the game is still very playable.... just for about a few weeks and not MONTHS like their subscription model would like.
The complexities and difficulties that are such odious words in today's market are what makes an MMORPG what it is.
Menu options for selecting how "weak" your enemies should be is one of these culprits.

And all these Retard-Finder things were the deathblow to the Game. Right now you can level solo from 1-90 no problem. You don't have to communicate with a another person.
And the worst part is that this were all unneeded changes. Casuals had enough to do in TBC and most of them liked TBC way more than Casualysm and Pandaland.

Blizzard and the vocal "majority" have decided that many gamers fit this archtype: the soloist who, despite trying to avoid players, has such extraordinary social life and incredible work ethic.

Blizzard casualised the Game so much that even the Casuals are bored with how easy it has become.

They tried to casualize the game but there is no such thing. You can't make content tailored to players who play leisurely and unrushed. They can and will do that with anything they're playing.

[Ronduwil]

Actually the exodus started when Blizzard nerfed the Cata Heriocs.

Nerfing Cata Heroics was a response to the exodus, not the cause of it. I watched two very active guilds with 20+ players constantly online die right before my eyes at the start of Cata until there were maybe 2-3 people on at one time (if that).

[Angella]

WoW used to be the game where you made friends, and that no longer happens.

Pretty much this. When you make the game playable as a single player game you kill the community.

[rinleezwins]

Blizzard ruined the Game because they casualised the Game until it was unplayable. They removed every complex part and that removed alot of fun. And all these Retard-Finder things were the deathblow to the Game. Right now you can level solo from 1-90 no problem. You don't have to communicate with a another person.
And the worst part is that this were all unneeded changes. Casuals had enough to do in TBC and most of them liked TBC way more than Casualysm and Pandaland.



LOL? They removed that???? You don't need Vials for Potions anymore? wtf??? And all the Hunter things that they changed were a fucking joke! My Level70 Hunter still has the 2H Weapon from Kael'Thas I wore for such a long time - and the 2 ArmorPen Daggers out of the Trollinstance in TBC. And now they are worthless.
And why they removed all the petsystems (loyality, training, different attackspeeds, walkspeeds etc) is just fucking retarded.


Concl:
Blizzard casualised the Game so much that even the Casuals are bored with how easy it has become.

You never used your 2h or daggers, they were just "stat sticks". They removed different stats on pets because everyone would pick the best one, just like the old "cookie cutter" talent builds.

[Angella]

You never used your 2h or daggers, they were just "stat sticks". They removed different stats on pets because everyone would pick the best one, just like the old "cookie cutter" talent builds.

Back in the day the 'best one' was different depending on your spec. It added a nice layer of customizability to the game.

[wych]

Back in the day the 'best one' was different depending on your spec. It added a nice layer of customizability to the game.

It's better having a choice as opposed to being stuck with a cat or wolf if you wanted maximum DPS, or Broken Tooth if you wanted to slow casters in PvP optimally.

I enjoy going around with my water walker or core hound

[Ronduwil]

I guess you are right. That is why we have such notable fan sites as:


Icy veins with all its information on how to level battle pets and pick herbs on your farm.

You're thinking of wow-professions.com

I don't see the point you're trying to make. By definition casual players just want to play the game. They generally don't want to alt-tab to visit third party sites in the middle of their gaming session. The reason there are so many web sites for hardcore players is that they are the biggest cheaters. When the average player has to visit a third party site that hosts research compiled by better players just to beat an encounter your design is broken. Unfortunately the typical hardcore player doesn't realize that and now accepts this model as "being prepared" when it used to be called "cheating."

[wych]

You're thinking of wow-professions.com

I don't see the point you're trying to make. By definition casual players just want to play the game. They generally don't want to alt-tab to visit third party sites in the middle of their gaming session. The reason there are so many web sites for hardcore players is that they are the biggest cheaters. When the average player has to visit a third party site that hosts research compiled by better players just to beat an encounter your design is broken. Unfortunately the typical hardcore player doesn't realize that and now accepts this model as "being prepared" when it used to be called "cheating."

It was never "cheating", never saw it referred to as such i'd call it min-maxing.

When a class has more than 2 abilities there's always going to be an optimum rotation, I like that it's sort of implied in game now (in the spell book), but it was never cheating

[Ronduwil]

WoW used to be the game where you made friends, and that no longer happens.

That's because 90% of the friends worth making in the game are going to prevent your character progressing in the game because they can't or won't take the time to read sixteen detailed strategy guides on the current tier's raid bosses plus a strategy guide on their character's optimal talents/rotation for each fight (they aren't even the same anymore because you're expected to switch talents between fights). That's why people don't make friends any more. When you have to choose between buddying up with hardcore players to progress and buddying up with the people you like to stagnate you might as well buddy up with the people you like in another game.

[wych]

That's because 90% of the friends worth making in the game are going to prevent your character progressing in the game because they can't or won't take the time to read sixteen detailed strategy guides on the current tier's raid bosses plus a strategy guide on their character's optimal talents/rotation for each fight (they aren't even the same anymore because you're expected to switch talents between fights). That's why people don't make friends any more. .

Are you implying the likes of TBC and WOTLK weren't far more demanding in terms of learning about bosses outside the game?

Now there's a massive in game list of abilities, back then you either went in blind or found the tactics online. Not only that, a dumbed down LFR version for you to learn the basics on.

Making the assumption that people don't make friends because of the "work" (i.e spending 5 minutes reading tactics for bosses before a raid, which has always been present in the game, except arguably early vanilla) is retarded

[Ronduwil]

It was never "cheating", never saw it referred to as such i'd call it min-maxing.

When a class has more than 2 abilities there's always going to be an optimum rotation, I like that it's sort of implied in game now (in the spell book), but it was never cheating

I'm talking about walkthroughs. When 99% of raiders are reading detailed strategy guides and/or watching kill videos prior to their first encounter with a given boss they are cheating.

[shamental]

I'm talking about walkthroughs. When 99% of raiders are reading detailed strategy guides and/or watching kill videos prior to their first encounter with a given boss they are cheating.

I'm no expert but didn't they always say that hardcore players are like 1 or 2% or player base? so if you remove casual what will you get? 100k subscribers? I don't get it.

[Ronduwil]

Making the assumption that people don't make friends because of the "work" (i.e spending 5 minutes reading tactics for bosses before a raid, which has always been present in the game, except arguably early vanilla) is retarded

The assumption was that prior to Cataclysm you could make meaningful progression on your characters without setting foot in a raid. That is no longer the case. Now the entire endgame is raiding, raiding, and more raiding. Oh, and dailies, but that's a solo activity that doesn't require any friends. Don't put assumptions into my posts that were never there to begin with.

[wych]

I'm talking about walkthroughs. When 99% of raiders are reading detailed strategy guides and/or watching kill videos prior to their first encounter with a given boss they are cheating.

If I learn about a topic before an exam, i'm not cheating.

If I watch a video of an opposing player i'm going to be up against before playing him in a game of sport i'm not cheating.

The definition of cheating:
Act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage, esp. in a game or examination: "she cheats at cards".
Deceive or trick.

Finding out what abilities a boss has before hand is not unfairly or dishonestly gaining an advantage. Blizzard never implied that they didn't want this to happen, in fact just the opposite, they put their own version in the game.

[Whiskra]

That's because 90% of the friends worth making in the game are going to prevent your character progressing in the game because they can't or won't take the time to read sixteen detailed strategy guides on the current tier's raid bosses plus a strategy guide on their character's optimal talents/rotation for each fight (they aren't even the same anymore because you're expected to switch talents between fights). That's why people don't make friends any more. When you have to choose between buddying up with hardcore players to progress and buddying up with the people you like to stagnate you might as well buddy up with the people you like in another game.

People will always find ways to argue for the current state of the game regardless of how retarded it is, won't they?

[wych]

The assumption was that prior to Cataclysm you could make meaningful progression on your characters without setting foot in a raid. That is no longer the case. Now the entire endgame is raiding, raiding, and more raiding. Oh, and dailies, but that's a solo activity that doesn't require any friends. Don't put assumptions into my posts that were never there to begin with.

Such as?

Raiding has always been the end game, simple as. Now there's more to do at max level than ever before.

[ReleaseDay]

Blizzard did ruin wow , not the players nor the community.

Activision ruined Blizzard.

[Ronduwil]

People will always find ways to argue for the current state of the game regardless of how retarded it is, won't they?

I was actually arguing against the current state of the game. Way to completely misread my posts...

[LeperHerring]

People didn't come to it because of the community; they came because of word of mouth from RL friends, and because the initial experience was so addicting.

And the reason it had good word of mouth and an addicting experience was due to a large part the great community it created. The world truly felt like a world, with all kinds of players and a community where you interacted with the same players over an extended period, instead of being thrown into groups with random people you will never meet again like LFR/LFD

The legion of former WoW players now realizes what the devs tried to do, and won't stand for it again. That's why any attempt to go to a hardcore play style, in this MMO or any other, is doomed to at most niche status.

It might be that the casuals could not be retained no matter what the devs could have reasonably done. In that case, WoW has always been doomed. The hardcores alone cannot sustain the game, and once the supply of fresh casuals had been burned through, the game was going to fail.

The reason why other MMOs are failing is that it's a very, very hit driven genre. It's the same reason why we won't see Facebook fall to another social network any time soon.

And stop acting like it's so black and white; that you must cater everything to either casuals or hardcore. It's perfectly possible from every perspective to provide content for all play styles. They did it in vanilla, where I didn't ever step into a raid yet had a great time. They just almost doubled the developer team size from the disbanded Titan team, so they could easily diversify the content creation and start building different content for different playstyles.

In TBC style progression raiding, my ideal content consumption rate would be killing a new boss every two weeks, with 3-4 weeks to down an end-boss. That means that realistically it would require about 20 bosses per year to satisfy my content needs. Some would raid more than me and be better than me, so they might need 25-30 bosses. In any case, that's a perfectly viable amount of progression content to build for the ~10% of the playerbase that prefers that kind of raiding. Then put in 20 of "casual" bosses with all the major lore with LFR/10man/whatever modes and you're still at a perfectly viable amount of content.

In concrete terms, every patch release:
- Progression raid: only 25 man, only one mode, requires killing the end boss of the previous tier (and some mechanism to stop overgear with new gear, e.g., only gear dropped pre-raid or in progression raid instances can be used).
- Casual raid: LFR and flex mode, all the major lore bosses are there, you can jump directly to the latest one and gear up with badges or whatever.

Everyone would have content that suits them. I bet you that'd be perfectly fine for the real casuals, but all the bads will cry a river when not everything is handed out to them.