Rogue PvE Compendium - the do's and dont's [6.2]

[magoo1122]

Why Shadow dance on CD?

[Grayjoy]

I think I've got combat down pretty good now, finally trying to learn Sub. Just for clarification my rotation would look something like this?

Open with ambush.

5CP SnD
5CP Rupture
Hemo to keep of SVein
Backstab to build CP

Use Vanish on CD, make sure I have the energy for ambush.
Prep right after, same deal with energy.

Shadow Dance on CD (Or when SnS and Rupture will last the full duration of the dance?)
Was also pooling energy with arcane torrent to top off.
Spam Ambush while SDing.

I have beating heart of the mountain, recommend using that with SD or just on CD?


Also, I only have one pvp dagger. No luck in HM or BRF so far. Should I really prioritize getting a second dagger or can I use my H Phemos Cleaver as offhand? I have a ton of mastery gear which I know is good for our offhand (unless I'm mistaken). I definitely prefer combat, but on fights like Gruul or Butcher I should be playing Sub.

Thanks!

You're waiting an eternity to get sanguinary veins up. Ideally you premed-snd-garrote-SD/SR-rupture if I remember correctly.

[Biomega]

Question: is there some sort of addon that nicely tracks the "bits" of Insight, i.e. the steps of 4-SSs required to advance a level? I'd very much like to keep track of that, so I know whether I'm 3 SS into an Insight level, or 2, or whatever.

[Scharin]

Question: is there some sort of addon that nicely tracks the "bits" of Insight, i.e. the steps of 4-SSs required to advance a level? I'd very much like to keep track of that, so I know whether I'm 3 SS into an Insight level, or 2, or whatever.

http://www.curse.com/addons/wow/bandits-guile-helper

[Coldkil]

Straight to the point,

my internet connection sucks so bad i had to cut it entirely because i'm simply refusing to pay anything more to have a service that simply doesn't work.

This implies no more WoW for me (hell, no internet at all but the phone) until i move from this place (and i don't know when it will happen) - in addition, i cannot log to the forum as much as before thus i cannot keep updatedthe rogue guide as i would.

If someone wants to take the task in his hands, please PM me and i'll find a way to make the guide continue to live.

[racthalas]

Great thread, thanks!

[Deleted]

Hello guys!

I'm back from cataclysm

I'm lvlling with combat and it will the first spec i want to master!

I have a question about this: (ok the guide isn't updated for 6.1 but it should be ok)

"Ideally, Revealing Strike is a debuff that lasts 24 seconds on the target - while you want it always active for your SS spam, it's not good to refresh it as soon as it expires. It's better to pool energy so as soon you use RvS you can dish out a subsequent SS, to use the less energy possible on it and the most possible on Sinister Strikes due to the chance of generating an additional combo point."

I totally didin't get what the 'ed part says..:S can anyone explain it? RvS doesn't makes chaper SS's or the next SS after it..ro whatever.

Also, SnD is always worth to refresh with any combo points when it falls off or always better to clip it a bit, but with 5CPs? (i suppose not when it has still 6+ seconds because so just refresh it with n-1 CPs.)

Thanks in advice!

[Leih]

"Ideally, Revealing Strike is a debuff that lasts 24 seconds on the target - while you want it always active for your SS spam, it's not good to refresh it as soon as it expires. It's better to pool energy so as soon you use RvS you can dish out a subsequent SS, to use the less energy possible on it and the most possible on Sinister Strikes due to the chance of generating an additional combo point."

I totally didin't get what the 'ed part says..:S can anyone explain it? RvS doesn't makes chaper SS's or the next SS after it..ro whatever.

Thanks in advice!

I haven't played combat in a while myself, but I'll assume nothing has changed with it. It's basically because you don't need RvS debuff up 100%, you only need it up while you are using SS/Evisc on the target. So the idea is if you refresh RvS immediately and don't have energy to continue using SS again afterwards, you're wasting uptime on RvS.

(Lets simplify the numbers and say it takes ~5 seconds to regen 50 energy for a Sinister Strike)

So for example:
Your RvS debuff runs out and you currently have 40 energy. You immediately spend that 40 energy on RvS. You now have to wait 5 seconds for your next SS. At this time, your RvS debuff is already down to 19 seconds left. So in 19 seconds time you have to refresh it again and spend another 40 energy on RvS. You basically just wasted those 5 seconds of the RvS debuff where you didn't have energy to use SS. Since there's no point in having RvS up unless you are using SS (or a finisher, of course) you might as well just wait 5 seconds BEFORE you put RvS back up, since it doesn't matter if it's up or down while you're not using attacks and just waiting for your energy to regen.

Over the course of the fight, these ~5 second intervals of wasted RvS accumulate, so that after ~2 minutes of the fight you've basically wasted a full RvS which is 40 energy down the drain.

This isn't really something you need to worry about while levelling so much. It's not a MASSIVE difference in DPS but it is something that can bump your numbers up a bit once you get used to the base rotation.

[Deleted]

I haven't played combat in a while myself, but I'll assume nothing has changed with it. It's basically because you don't need RvS debuff up 100%, you only need it up while you are using SS/Evisc on the target. So the idea is if you refresh RvS immediately and don't have energy to continue using SS again afterwards, you're wasting uptime on RvS.

(Lets simplify the numbers and say it takes ~5 seconds to regen 50 energy for a Sinister Strike)

So for example:
Your RvS debuff runs out and you currently have 40 energy. You immediately spend that 40 energy on RvS. You now have to wait 5 seconds for your next SS. At this time, your RvS debuff is already down to 19 seconds left. So in 19 seconds time you have to refresh it again and spend another 40 energy on RvS. You basically just wasted those 5 seconds of the RvS debuff where you didn't have energy to use SS. Since there's no point in having RvS up unless you are using SS (or a finisher, of course) you might as well just wait 5 seconds BEFORE you put RvS back up, since it doesn't matter if it's up or down while you're not using attacks and just waiting for your energy to regen.

Of the course of the fight, these ~5 second intervals of wasted RvS accumulate, so that after ~2 minutes of the fight you've basically wasted a full RvS which is 40 energy down the drain.

This isn't really something you need to worry about while levelling so much. It's not a MASSIVE difference in DPS but it is something that can bump your numbers up a bit once you get used to the base rotation.

Ah ok..so it's a "classic" mana pooling. I did it for Assa. Ok so it makes sense ofc.

- - - Updated - - -

Sorry but I was thinking again to ur answer.

Your RvS debuff runs out and you currently have 40 energy. You immediately spend that 40 energy on RvS. You now have to wait 5 seconds for your next SS. At this time, your RvS debuff is already down to 19 seconds left. So in 19 seconds time you have to refresh it again and spend another 40 energy on RvS. You basically just wasted those 5 seconds of the RvS debuff where you didn't have energy to use SS.

fair enough but let's say i wait as you suggest, enough mana to refresh RvS + SS..when I hit the SS I'm in the same situation how if I didin't pool energy at the beginning. Right? So what's the point if it doesn't change? Am I missing something?

Also could you answer to my second Q about refreshing SnD?

Thanks in advice!

[Leih]

fair enough but let's say i wait as you suggest, enough mana to refresh RvS + SS..when I hit the SS I'm in the same situation how if I didin't pool energy at the beginning. Right? So what's the point if it doesn't change? Am I missing something?

You're in the same position in terms of your current energy level. The difference is the current status of your RvS debuff.

If you pooled energy and used RvS+SS back to back, your RvS has now just been refreshed and has 24s left before next time you refresh it. If you used RvS immediately and had to wait 5s to use your SS, you only have 19s left on your RvS debuff at this point. So that means you're going to end up refreshing your RvS 5s sooner than if you'd pooled. Over the course of a fight, if you keep doing this and wasting those 5s of debuff each RvS it's costing you energy on an extra RvS that you wouldn't have had to use.

For a simple example, lets say you have a fight that lasts 130 seconds (2 minutes 10 seconds). For simplicity, lets strip out the SS/Eviscerates/SnD/etc. Your timeline for when you cast RvS would look like this:

If we just go straight to RvS:
00:00 RvS 1
00:24 RvS 2
00:48 RvS 3
01:12 RvS 4
01:36 RvS 5
02:00 RvS 6

If we wait 5 seconds to pool in between each:
00:00 RvS 1
00:29 RvS 2
00:58 RvS 3
01:27 RvS 4
01:56 RvS 5

So, yeah, doing it the second way you still make sure you never use SS/Eviscerate without RvS, but because you are spacing them out better with pooling by the end of the ~2 minutes you've used one less RvS, which is 40 more energy you've been able to spend on other attacks.

(this example is SUPER simplified but hopefully gets the point across)

Also could you answer to my second Q about refreshing SnD?

I wasn't sure exactly what you are asking with SnD. Since all these buffs/dots function with a 30% "pandemic" effect now, you can of course partially clip SnD to refresh by a few seconds without losing any duration, but, yeah, if the remaining duration is so high you will actually lose some seconds, you're better off just leaving it. Though it's a good idea to refresh it just before Deep Insight if you would run out during, because you never want to be spending CPs on slice and dice during deep insight if you can possibly help it.

[Deleted]

You're in the same position in terms of your current energy level. The difference is the current status of your RvS debuff.

If you pooled energy and used RvS+SS back to back, your RvS has now just been refreshed and has 24s left before next time you refresh it. If you used RvS immediately and had to wait 5s to use your SS, you only have 19s left on your RvS debuff at this point. So that means you're going to end up refreshing your RvS 5s sooner than if you'd pooled. Over the course of a fight, if you keep doing this and wasting those 5s of debuff each RvS it's costing you energy on an extra RvS that you wouldn't have had to use.

For a simple example, lets say you have a fight that lasts 130 seconds (2 minutes 10 seconds). For simplicity, lets strip out the SS/Eviscerates/SnD/etc. Your timeline for when you cast RvS would look like this:

If we just go straight to RvS:
00:00 RvS 1
00:24 RvS 2
00:48 RvS 3
01:12 RvS 4
01:36 RvS 5
02:00 RvS 6

If we wait 5 seconds to pool in between each:
00:00 RvS 1
00:29 RvS 2
00:58 RvS 3
01:27 RvS 4
01:56 RvS 5

So, yeah, doing it the second way you still make sure you never use SS/Eviscerate without RvS, but because you are spacing them out better with pooling by the end of the ~2 minutes you've used one less RvS, which is 40 more energy you've been able to spend on other attacks.

(this example is SUPER simplified but hopefully gets the point across)



I wasn't sure exactly what you are asking with SnD. Since all these buffs/dots function with a 30% "pandemic" effect now, you can of course partially clip SnD to refresh by a few seconds without losing any duration, but, yeah, if the remaining duration is so high you will actually lose some seconds, you're better off just leaving it. Though it's a good idea to refresh it just before Deep Insight if you would run out during, because you never want to be spending CPs on slice and dice during deep insight if you can possibly help it.

what do you mean with 30% "pandemic" effect?

[Leih]

what do you mean with 30% "pandemic" effect?

Pandemic was a warlock passive in Mists that meant you could refresh your DoTs with up to 50% of the duration left without losing ticks. So if you had a 30s debuff and you refresh when there is 15s left, the new debuff would have a 45s duration instead of 30s.

In WoD, instead of this being a warlock-only thing, this is now how all DoTs and similar effects work for all classes, except rather than 50% it's 30%. Basically this means if you refresh things like RvS, SnD or Rupture with 30% or less of the duration remaining, you won't lose any ticks, instead the remaining duration will be preserved and added on.

Basically, it means if you refresh within the last 30% of the duration, you lose nothing and there's no harm in clipping.

[Deleted]

Pandemic was a warlock passive in Mists that meant you could refresh your DoTs with up to 50% of the duration left without losing ticks. So if you had a 30s debuff and you refresh when there is 15s left, the new debuff would have a 45s duration instead of 30s.

In WoD, instead of this being a warlock-only thing, this is now how all DoTs and similar effects work for all classes, except rather than 50% it's 30%. Basically this means if you refresh things like RvS, SnD or Rupture with 30% or less of the duration remaining, you won't lose any ticks, instead the remaining duration will be preserved and added on.

Basically, it means if you refresh within the last 30% of the duration, you lose nothing and there's no harm in clipping.

holy shit..heck that's because sometimes i saw SnD 45s :S nice thing.

Anyway the most efficiency would be to refresh SnD with 5cp to reduce the number of "refreshes" , right?

I mean, i.e, it's better to do a few 5CPs SnD than more SnD's with =<4CPs.
It's always preferable to refresh SnD with 5CPs.

[Leih]

holy shit..heck that's because sometimes i saw SnD 45s :S nice thing.

Anyway the most efficiency would be to refresh SnD with 5cp to reduce the number of "refreshes" , right?

I mean, i.e, it's better to do a few 5CPs SnD than more SnD's with =<4CPs.
It's always preferable to refresh SnD with 5CPs.

Sort of yes. Bear in mind you want to get SnD up as quickly as possible in the beginning of the fight, or if it happens to fall off at any point (most likely due to encounter mechanics or if you're levelling or in dungeons), so in those cases, you get it up with whatever CPs you've got and definitely not wait till 5.

But yeah, in your general rotation if you're able to refresh SnD with 5 CPs without clipping the duration or capping energy, it's more efficient in terms of energy spent. It is only a small gain though so it shouldn't be a priority over other things.

You just have to be careful that you're spending the maximum CPs possible on Eviscerate and not SnD during things like Deep Insight and trinket procs etc. as that's likely to make a bigger difference to your numbers. Don't fall into the trap of missing an Eviscerate at the end of your Deep Insight or something because you're wanting to use it on a 5 CP SnD.

[Smaxy]

So- Subterfuge or Shadow Focus? And does gear (looking at t17 2piece) have any influence on the choice? I keep seeing alternating people using different talents and I'm trying to figure out what is optimal or if they're so close it doesn't matter.

This is for subtlety

[Deleted]

So- Subterfuge or Shadow Focus? And does gear (looking at t17 2piece) have any influence on the choice? I keep seeing alternating people using different talents and I'm trying to figure out what is optimal or if they're so close it doesn't matter.

This is for subtlety

Subterfuge + Gl of V is the best dps increase. However it requires a bit more management to play to ensure you make the most out of your vanish window. Shadow focus however can just be used without having to worry about that plus it will free up a glyph. I was running SF on Blackhand to gain a 3rd glyph and because it just flowed better for me when progressing and learning the fight.

[Smaxy]

Subterfuge + Gl of V is the best dps increase. However it requires a bit more management to play to ensure you make the most out of your vanish window. Shadow focus however can just be used without having to worry about that plus it will free up a glyph. I was running SF on Blackhand to gain a 3rd glyph and because it just flowed better for me when progressing and learning the fight.

Ok, I'm just starting taking a Rogue seriously, I'm main swapping from Enhancement for Mythic. Getting used to everything, have a good WA setup. I'm getting a full Heroic clear today and I expect I'll get at least two piece, hoping for four.

Do you reccomend any specific macros? I currently have one for TotT and ones attaching Premeditation to Ambush to make sure I always cast that when im able to. I was planning on making a mouse over one for MfD as well. Do you reccomend anything specific for the switch to Subterfuge from SF? I'm confident in my SF opener, going to work on my Subterfuge opener it would seem.

Also two things related to Vanish: does Vanish activate Master of Subtelty and would you reccomend a Vanish macro? (Like one that casts Premeditation and Ambish immediately after Vanish? Trying to maximize uptime on the bonus and pausing autos after Vanish seems like something to be minimized)

Apologies if some of these questions seem stupid or whatever

[Deleted]

Is keeping a high Hemo uptime of like 80% ish a dps loss? or should I literally just use it for keeping up SV?

[Deleted]

Is keeping a high Hemo uptime of like 80% ish a dps loss? or should I literally just use it for keeping up SV?

Afaik you only use it when NOT in a FW-window, but the DPS increase is rather nihil.

[Biomega]

Wait, you use Hemo over BS? I thought you only Hemo at the start, and if Rupture happens to drop due to Multistrike procs and you're low on CP? Is it an actual DPS gain to Hemo instead of BS outside of FW?