Blizzard is getting real desperate to make Garrosh into a Villain!

[Lynneiah]

Haven't played WoW since like 5 years. I saw the 5.4 Video on a Podcast and thought if Garrosh is the new Boss it will be something like Thrall and Jaina Proudmoore fighting him in the Video and what did I see? A fucking random panda fights him? WTF has this game become? I was waiting for the Panda to throw a Pokeball at Garrosh. Seriously, the Game is hopeless since Pandaland.

It's cute how people who've been out of touch with something for half a decade still feel their opinion on that something is valid.
That's not a random panda at all. Which you would know, if you still played the game. Which you didn't, so shush.

[championknight]

Eh. Sylvanas actually has brains. Makes her an infinitely more interesting character.

Its the actions that matter. Garrosh was shown to be doing the wrong things due to his flawed execution and sometimes, intrepretions of what is right for the horde

Sylva as? Everything for her is survival x infinity. Doesn't matter if you reuse the plague, valkyr or kidnapping a blood elf ebon blade knight, since it would be 'justifiable' as a reason for survival

Note: I don't hate sylvanas as a character, just the way both she and garrosh seem to be performing questionable actions but the former getting away with everything

[khalltusk]

It's cute how people who've been out of touch with something for half a decade still feel their opinion on that something is valid.
That's not a random panda at all. Which you would know, if you still played the game. Which you didn't, so shush.

Tell me about it, I had to resist to the obvious flame bait. Moment you hear "panda and pokemon" you just have to laugh at it. As if we didn't have talking cows and poop quests since day one why would a panda and pokemon be out of place.

[blackroseyagami]

The main reason people still say or feel Garrosh assassinated Cairne is because you are comparing the most liked Racial Leader of the Horde (from both Horde and Alliance views) to a spoiled brat that got to where he is because Daddy was famous.

There are many inconsistencies between the books and the game, but it can be determined that Garrosh just let power get to his head, period.

I still dunno the details of what happens during the siege but I will feel pretty let down if Jaina doesn't have a hand in Garrosh death, specially after Theramore

[Bladenboro]

The main reason people still say or feel Garrosh assassinated Cairne is because you are comparing the most liked Racial Leader of the Horde (from both Horde and Alliance views) to a spoiled brat that got to where he is because Daddy was famous.

There are many inconsistencies between the books and the game, but it can be determined that Garrosh just let power get to his head, period.

I still dunno the details of what happens during the siege but I will feel pretty let down if Jaina doesn't have a hand in Garrosh death, specially after Theramore

You've got to be kidding me... Garrosh had to earn the respect of the orcs on Azeroth and his position as warchief through the campaign in Northrend. In the racial leader short stories on the World of Warcraft website they talk about this. Honestly I am going to have to say, like others I felt Blizzard tried to show Garrosh had growth from Wrath to Cata, he was rough around the edges and brash but had a good sense of honor. Then when players STILL hated Garrosh they decided to label him a villain in MoP. His character is completely different in Cata to MoP for no good reason other than "power corrupts". And you can't use that as an excuse in a fantasy game where the only other leader who is actively corrupt is Sylvanas. (Seriously, you can't argue that. She talks about how much undeath is a curse and yet starting in Cata she turns around and starts down the path of Arthas. Worst than Arthas because even after he became a Death Knight he still had the briefest of moments where he felt remorse for what he was doing.)

[Lynneiah]

You've got to be kidding me... Garrosh had to earn the respect of the orcs on Azeroth and his position as warchief through the campaign in Northrend. In the racial leader short stories on the World of Warcraft website they talk about this. Honestly I am going to have to say, like others I felt Blizzard tried to show Garrosh had growth from Wrath to Cata, he was rough around the edges and brash but had a good sense of honor. Then when players STILL hated Garrosh they decided to label him a villain in MoP. His character is completely different in Cata to MoP for no good reason other than "power corrupts". And you can't use that as an excuse in a fantasy game where the only other leader who is actively corrupt is Sylvanas. (Seriously, you can't argue that. She talks about how much undeath is a curse and yet starting in Cata she turns around and starts down the path of Arthas. Worst than Arthas because even after he became a Death Knight he still had the briefest of moments where he felt remorse for what he was doing.)

And why can't you use that as an excuse in a fantasy game? Power corrupts some people, but not everyone.

[Bladenboro]

And why can't you use that as an excuse in a fantasy game? Power corrupts some people, but not everyone.

Because look at any other faction leader. Hell even Sargeras had good intentions. Varian is becoming a better leader. The Dwarves are actually striving for unity. That is why.

[Lynneiah]

Because look at any other faction leader. Hell even Sargeras had good intentions. Varian is becoming a better leader. The Dwarves are actually striving for unity. That is why.

I'll just go ahead and repeat myself.

Power corrupts some people, but not everyone.

EDIT: Should also be noted that the only other faction leader who has roughly the same amount of power would be Varian, who grew up as a crown prince, and was thus probably trained in how to run a kingdom. The Alliance also functions (or functioned, anyway) more as a council than a strict singular unit, meaning even if Varian goes batshit, the others can keep him in check. Less so with the Horde, where the Warchief seems to have limitless power and authority, making Garrosh the faction leader with arguably the most direct power, and thus the biggest chance of having it corrupt him.

[khalltusk]

Because look at any other faction leader. Hell even Sargeras had good intentions. Varian is becoming a better leader. The Dwarves are actually striving for unity. That is why.

But garry showed signs of what to expect in the future,

Does not listen to his advisers unless they have input he wants to hear - check
Gets angry at a blade of grass - check

From the get go hes been a bad egg who could have gone two ways. He could have learned from his errors and grown or he'd end up in a shit storm of his own making. Clearly he went for option two. Seriously the signs were there from the start he is the same as he was in cata just went even further along this dark path.

[Lynneiah]

But garry showed signs of what to expect in the future,

Does not listen to his advisers unless they have input he wants to hear - check
Gets angry at a blade of grass - check

From the get go hes been a bad egg who could have gone two ways. He could have learned from his errors and grown or he'd end up in a shit storm of his own making. Clearly he went for option two. Seriously the signs were there from the start he is the same as he was in cata just went even further along this dark path.

Also this. Garry was shown to be a horrible leader since Wrath.

[Lord Pebbleton]

I just want to end Garrosh for the blow that ended Cairne (even if he didn't know that), and then onto Magatha for just revenge.

[Bladenboro]

I'll just go ahead and repeat myself.

EDIT: Should also be noted that the only other faction leader who has roughly the same amount of power would be Varian, who grew up as a crown prince, and was thus probably trained in how to run a kingdom. The Alliance also functions (or functioned, anyway) more as a council than a strict singular unit, meaning even if Varian goes batshit, the others can keep him in check. Less so with the Horde, where the Warchief seems to have limitless power and authority, making Garrosh the faction leader with arguably the most direct power, and thus the biggest chance of having it corrupt him.

That's all well and good. But in all of the Warcraft universe I can only name one other person who went evil just for power, no better reason. No good intentions, nada. Off all the leaders of every faction, that is two. And as far as I can tell Azhara is just a flat a character as Garrosh is in MoP.

[Lynneiah]

That's all well and good. But in all of the Warcraft universe I can only name one other person who went evil just for power, no better reason. No good intentions, nada. Off all the leaders of every faction, that is two. And as far as I can tell Azhara is just a flat a character as Garrosh is in MoP.

That doesn't actually contradict my argument in the slightest. Lack of precedense doesn't imply impossibility. Or, as others like to say it: first time for everything.

[Bladenboro]

That doesn't actually contradict my argument in the slightest. Lack of precedense doesn't imply impossibility. Or, as others like to say it: first time for everything.

Alright, fine. I'll give you that. But I don't see Garrosh being a bad egg from the beginning. Garrosh had experience leading in Northrend, and he did show restraint and honor, or tried to. He told Sylvanas not the use her plague and she turns around and does it, he punishes his general for using a massive bomb that killed civilians, all up to Theramore where his character does a complete 180, something Baine even points out during those events. And don't forget Garrosh was saddled with baby sitting a rotting psychopath and Vol'jin who kept threatening him. I'll say, maybe he wasn't cut out for Warchief AT THAT TIME. Perhaps a General position would have been more fitting, but with what he had to work with he did a great job.

[pateuvasiliu]

Him killing Cairne wasn't his fault, honestly.

[khalltusk]

Alright, fine. I'll give you that. But I don't see Garrosh being a bad egg from the beginning. Garrosh had experience leading in Northrend, and he did show restraint and honor, or tried to. He told Sylvanas not the use her plague and she turns around and does it, he punishes his general for using a massive bomb that killed civilians, all up to Theramore where his character does a complete 180, something Baine even points out during those events. And don't forget Garrosh was saddled with baby sitting a rotting psychopath and Vol'jin who kept threatening him. I'll say, maybe he wasn't cut out for Warchief AT THAT TIME. Perhaps a General position would have been more fitting, but with what he had to work with he did a great job.

You also missed the part where he plainly states why dont we just "crush" the alliance (while talking to saurfang) and take what we want. With saurfang stating that he should not go down that dark path. Or in TBC where he rashly challenges Thrall to a duel as he wants us to invade into northrend with out scouting it first?

Where he sees varian in the ulduar trailer and just charges him? While Thrall the one who would have had an issue with varian shows true restraint.

He punished his general for using a bomb on a school or w/e it was only thing I can figure was that it was more that he wasted a bomb on a minimal threat. (thats my opinion not fact!)

We have seen glimpses of how he could have been better but then on the same coin we've seen just how bad he can be from the start.

[Lynneiah]

Alright, fine. I'll give you that. But I don't see Garrosh being a bad egg from the beginning. Garrosh had experience leading in Northrend, and he did show restraint and honor, or tried to. He told Sylvanas not the use her plague and she turns around and does it, he punishes his general for using a massive bomb that killed civilians, all up to Theramore where his character does a complete 180, something Baine even points out during those events. And don't forget Garrosh was saddled with baby sitting a rotting psychopath and Vol'jin who kept threatening him. I'll say, maybe he wasn't cut out for Warchief AT THAT TIME. Perhaps a General position would have been more fitting, but with what he had to work with he did a great job.

Garrosh had a General position in Wrath, leading the Horde forces in Northrend. He showed himself to be rash and irresponsible then (him and Varian having a scrap in the middle of a summit, in front of Thrall, was particularly moronic). He was also a lethargic nobody back in TBC, leader of the Maghar in name only, until Thrall came around and told him lies about what a great dude his dad was, so he became determined to be Grom 2.0.
Ultimately, I feel Thrall is to blame for advancing him through the ranks too quickly. He should've been given a junior position under Saurfang (as opposed to the other way around) during Wrath, and he certainly should not have been given the mantle of Warchief immediately after. Teach him about power by letting him observe others first, rather than thrusting power upon him.

[The Penguin]

Hope this was trolling because... wow, where have you been the past 2 expansions.

Heck I saw this coming before Wrath even launched. It was pretty clear when he fought Thrall. He cheated for advantage during two Mak'goras. He started to gloat only to get blasted aside by Thrall when the Scourge attacked. Thrall should of sent him to Wrathgate.

[Bladenboro]

You also missed the part where he plainly states why dont we just "crush" the alliance (while talking to saurfang) and take what we want. With saurfang stating that he should not go down that dark path. Or in TBC where he rashly challenges Thrall to a duel as he wants us to invade into northrend with out scouting it first?

Where he sees varian in the ulduar trailer and just charges him? While Thrall the one who would have had an issue with varian shows true restraint.

He punished his general for using a bomb on a school or w/e it was only thing I can figure was that it was more that he wasted a bomb on a minimal threat. (thats my opinion not fact!)

We have seen glimpses of how he could have been better but then on the same coin we've seen just how bad he can be from the start.

That was pre-Wrath, he grew during the events in Wrath, as we see in Cata. I cannot see how anyone can say that Garrosh was mad at his general for dropping the bomb on civilians where it could have been better used because he goes on about honor and it's importance. Something he learned from Saurfang. And I can agree with Lynneiah, Thrall did advance his career too fast.

It still doesn't change how I feel and see the situation that Blizzard has put Garrosh in. That once Blizzard realized they couldn't make Garrosh into a likable character for most of it's player base, they decided to throw him under the bus. That is what I feel is the true crime here.

[thesmall001]

The only 180 Garrosh has ever turned was Stonetalon and he presently continued to pull another 180 after that (making that a full 360 for those keeping track) back to full on ass-hat. Also the story Devs admitted that he was behind Stonetalon all along.

Or rather Dave Kosak said on Twitter that he "believed" that Garrosh was likely in the know about Stonetalon the whole time and only reprimanded Kromgar to save face in front of the Tauren and the player.