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  1. #1

    Is PVP gear too low tuned compared to pve gear?

    With all of the various implemental improvements on pve gear, thunderforged, valor upgrades,etc pve item levels have spiralled.

    Obviously in arena and bgs that is no issue, they just get scaled down. But with world pvp , and the introduction of partially a 'third' faction in world pvp, there is quite a lot of battling between players going on the newly introduced island.

    However the pvpers should be able to compete right? Wrong.

    The removal of resilience from pvp gear means that the only advantage for pve gear is pvp power. With maxed pvp power gems and trinkets you are looking at about 16-30%.

    The maximum pve item level _LAST PATCH_ was 549 (thunderforged heroic), with the highest pvp ilevel being 498. Now you factor in that the flux and normal raids are 550+ easily, not to mention thunderforged/heroic style inflation , and the 600 item level cape, pvpers do not stand a single chance in world pvp with simmilar effort put into getting there gear.

    The delay of the arena season means pvpers will still be stuck with 498 for even longer, whilst pvers can reastically all get 535 easily and up to 550 if not more with not that much effort, whilst pvpers have to wait a week or more to farm 522 gear one piece per week.

    Am I missing something, how do pvpers compete in world pvp?

  2. #2
    I think you are missing the fact that world pvp is not supposed to be balanced. Nor does blizzard even care to balance it as they have stated.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Coraulten View Post
    I think you are missing the fact that world pvp is not supposed to be balanced. Nor does blizzard even care to balance it as they have stated.
    Balanced? No , but competitive ? Why not?

    Even for questing and general function, exploring, dueling etc, pvp gear is extremely sub-par.

  4. #4
    World PvP doesn't matter. Hasn't mattered since BGs were first introduced in vanilla and will never matter again. There's no reason for Blizzard to balance for a style of PvP that is unbalanced in nature. World PvP is only about which side has more players, that's literally all that matters in world PvP, so wasting time trying to balance gear when the only thing that matters is the number of players is stupid.

  5. #5
    Dreadlord Leitka's Avatar
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    Considering this thread is specifically referencing PvP on Timeless Isle, where PvE gear certainly makes a difference, and where PvP is certainly a 'supported feature,' the usual commentary about World PvP is a little misplaced here.

    The people most interested in the Ordos items are generally going to be PvPers for reasons that needn't be stated- there's a design issue, however slight, in that when you have dedicated PvP players specifically farming PvE gear to ease the process of farming Bloody Coins.

    It's not as if it would be impossible to imagine a work-around for areas specifically designed around encouraging world PvP to discourage gear sandbagging without necessarily affecting world PvP in other places. You really can't go into every thread with a black-or-white viewpoint.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Leitka View Post
    Considering this thread is specifically referencing PvP on Timeless Isle, where PvE gear certainly makes a difference, and where PvP is certainly a 'supported feature,' the usual commentary about World PvP is a little misplaced here.

    The people most interested in the Ordos items are generally going to be PvPers for reasons that needn't be stated- there's a design issue, however slight, in that when you have dedicated PvP players specifically farming PvE gear to ease the process of farming Bloody Coins.

    It's not as if it would be impossible to imagine a work-around for areas specifically designed around encouraging world PvP to discourage gear sandbagging without necessarily affecting world PvP in other places. You really can't go into every thread with a black-or-white viewpoint.
    This poster has proven the point more eloquently than I.

    The maximum level pve gear, unless thunderforged exists or an equivalent, is 574, the maximum pvp gear is 522. By next week should they fix garrosh, it will be possible to have pve players in 574 gear, whilst pvpers are still using 498 and by design are gearing very slowly into 522, still 52 item levels behind pve.

    That is not to mention the heroic garrosh loot that is manly weapons, at upgraded item level of 582, and the legendary cape at 608 (?), there is a huge,huge gulf between the gear.

    Yes I appreciate that world pvp won't be balanced, and can be at times a numbers game. But the island offers a place to farm, to pvp a bit, to do quests, to kill rares. For any player in pvp gear it is really painful because ironically they will and currently are getting smashed by people in PVE gear.

    World pvp can still be competitive, groups of 2 v 2, duels between people, large group fights, and the disparity in the gear is huge.

    People in pvp gear cant quest even a fraction as well, nor can they kill rares or do anything .

    An example, Grevious gladiators decipatator which will take 2/3 weeks to farm has 5693 damage per second, the heroic warforged 2h axe from heroic mode siege of orgrimmar, which can potentially be obtained next week, has 9071 weapon dps, before valor upgrade, probably DOUBLE the weapon dps of the equivalent BIS pvp weapon.

    To qualify what this means, a 404 axe is from quests in jade forest, (blue quality), you might have used it at level 85, the equivalent axe to that is the gladiator 476 axe, if comparing the item level difference between pvp and pve gear currently. The difference between them is simply collosal. Unless as a pvper you spend 100% of your time in scaled down content, I don't see how you can't object to this.

    http://www.wowhead.com/items=2.1

    I appreciate that world pvp isn't balanced, and there isn't a need for it to be so, my point is overall the item level for pvp gear is way too low, it should at least be within 10 levels of pve gear especially given the time it takes to complete a full pvp set, not potentially 60 item levels lower, especially with the way gear is scaling currently.

    A lot of pvpers have quit wow already for LOL and alternative mobas, is this another indication that blizzard are giving up a bit on pvp?
    Last edited by Morrissey; 2013-09-12 at 05:15 AM.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Leitka View Post
    Considering this thread is specifically referencing PvP on Timeless Isle, where PvE gear certainly makes a difference, and where PvP is certainly a 'supported feature,' the usual commentary about World PvP is a little misplaced here.

    The people most interested in the Ordos items are generally going to be PvPers for reasons that needn't be stated- there's a design issue, however slight, in that when you have dedicated PvP players specifically farming PvE gear to ease the process of farming Bloody Coins.

    It's not as if it would be impossible to imagine a work-around for areas specifically designed around encouraging world PvP to discourage gear sandbagging without necessarily affecting world PvP in other places. You really can't go into every thread with a black-or-white viewpoint.
    ordos doesn't drop pvp gear so why would pvp'rs want his loot...
    Stormspellz -mugthol
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  8. #8
    Dreadlord Leitka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormspellz View Post
    ordos doesn't drop pvp gear so why would pvp'rs want his loot...
    No one is referring to the raid boss.
    Ordos has an associated vendor. That vendor sells an item to flag yourself for pvp against *both* factions while on the Isle for 2500 Timeless Coins. Killing people under the effects of this item gives a second currency, Bloody Coins. Bloody Coins are useful for buying a variety of other items from the same vendor, most notably a mount (a dark, ashy Mushan) and an item to transform yourself into a Yaungol, flagging yourself for pvp against both factions in any zone.

    It's not a meaningful place for competitive pvp, no, and none of the items are relevant to that. It is, however, a casual world pvp hub (and was intended as such) with associated vanity rewards. Those same rewards, gained through PvP (and PvP alone; there is no way to get Bloody Coins other than killing players), are much easier to obtain with heroic raiding gear due to the associated world PvP gear imbalances.

    Normally, I *am* on the side of "who cares?" in regards to world pvp, because it is what it is. In this case, we have a zone with an intended PvP mechanic being detrimentally affected by the gear discrepancy. Thus, the usual "world pvp doesn't matter" responses are less valid, because those responses tend to stem from the lack of rewards or incentives towards that form of PvP. Those rewards do exist here.

    To better put it into perspective, it's like if a world pvp hub like Wintergrasp existed in the present state of the game, but without gear-scaling. Yes, pve gear was better than pvp gear in certain ways in Wrath, but the discrepancy was much smaller. The game has also changed a lot since then, and there would likely be quite an outcry against pve gear in the zone, had scaling been as out-of-proportion in Wrath as it is in MoP.

    I'd also like to stress that I make these comments as a former hardcore raider. I'm no longer able to dedicate the same time to it that I used to, but I do still have a decent set of pve gear, and I do use that set of gear while on Timeless Isle. I can't argue it's fair when I kill someone in my opening Fists of Fury cast, which is quite common. I also cannot argue that it doesn't matter, as is usually the case with my comments on world pvp, because there are rewards for world pvp in this content.
    Last edited by Leitka; 2013-09-12 at 07:25 AM.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Leitka View Post
    No one is referring to the raid boss.
    Ordos has an associated vendor. That vendor sells an item to flag yourself for pvp against *both* factions while on the Isle for 2500 Timeless Coins. Killing people under the effects of this item gives a second currency, Bloody Coins. Bloody Coins are useful for buying a variety of other items from the same vendor, most notably a mount (a dark, ashy Mushan) and an item to transform yourself into a Yaungol, flagging yourself for pvp against both factions in any zone.

    It's not a meaningful place for competitive pvp, no, and none of the items are relevant to that. It is, however, a casual world pvp hub (and was intended as such) with associated vanity rewards. Those same rewards, gained through PvP (and PvP alone; there is no way to get Bloody Coins other than killing players), are much easier to obtain with heroic raiding gear due to the associated world PvP gear imbalances.

    Normally, I *am* on the side of "who cares?" in regards to world pvp, because it is what it is. In this case, we have a zone with an intended PvP mechanic being detrimentally affected by the gear discrepancy. Thus, the usual "world pvp doesn't matter" responses are less valid, because those responses tend to stem from the lack of rewards or incentives towards that form of PvP. Those rewards do exist here.

    To better put it into perspective, it's like if a world pvp hub like Wintergrasp existed in the present state of the game, but without gear-scaling. Yes, pve gear was better than pvp gear in certain ways in Wrath, but the discrepancy was much smaller. The game has also changed a lot since then, and there would likely be quite an outcry against pve gear in the zone, had scaling been as out-of-proportion in Wrath as it is in MoP.

    I'd also like to stress that I make these comments as a former hardcore raider. I'm no longer able to dedicate the same time to it that I used to, but I do still have a decent set of pve gear, and I do use that set of gear while on Timeless Isle. I can't argue it's fair when I kill someone in my opening Fists of Fury cast, which is quite common. I also cannot argue that it doesn't matter, as is usually the case with my comments on world pvp, because there are rewards for world pvp in this content.
    vanity items, and you can get the bloody coins in bgs once you get the 2nd item.
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  10. #10
    Dreadlord Leitka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormspellz View Post
    vanity items, and you can get the bloody coins in bgs once you get the 2nd item.
    Thanks for reiterating a point I made multiple times (that they are vanity items), it really drives home the point that you read my post. I'll also remind you competitive pvp, too, is mostly about vanity rewards, so...there's little argument to be made that vanity items don't matter. High-end PvP is about vanity rewards and prestige.
    The second item is not a guaranteed drop-rate for the coins, as farming kills on the Isle is. It also has a much longer cooldown than the Censer.

    A pvp-incentivized portion of some new content prefers pve gear heavily to pvp gear. Regardless of the unimportance of balancing gear in world pvp as a whole, this is not something that is unacceptable to bring up as an issue. It is one, from a game-design perspective.

    No amount of contrarian logic can change the fact that that's clearly a poorly thought out situation, and let's not muddle words; contrarianism is pretty apparently the aim of the first 3 responses to this thread. Generic, formulaic responses people have learned from various conversations about world pvp over the years divorced from the realization that incentivization (or the normal lack there-of) in World PvP is, in fact, the basis for that parroted thought.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Leitka View Post
    Thanks for reiterating a point I made multiple times (that they are vanity items), it really drives home the point that you read my post. I'll also remind you competitive pvp, too, is mostly about vanity rewards, so...there's little argument to be made that vanity items don't matter. High-end PvP is about vanity rewards and prestige.
    The second item is not a guaranteed drop-rate for the coins, as farming kills on the Isle is. It also has a much longer cooldown than the Censer.

    A pvp-incentivized portion of some new content prefers pve gear heavily to pvp gear. Regardless of the unimportance of balancing gear in world pvp as a whole, this is not something that is unacceptable to bring up as an issue. It is one, from a game-design perspective.

    No amount of contrarian logic can change the fact that that's clearly a poorly thought out situation, and let's not muddle words; contrarianism is pretty apparently the aim of the first 3 responses to this thread. Generic, formulaic responses people have learned from various conversations about world pvp over the years divorced from the realization that incentivization (or the normal lack there-of) in World PvP is, in fact, the basis for that parroted thought.
    while as much as it sucks its far better then pve items ruining "real" pvp ie competitive, so on that; IT IS FAR BETTER THEN IT HAS BEEN IN THE PAST.
    Stormspellz -mugthol
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  12. #12
    Bloodsail Admiral Luminoth4's Avatar
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    In short, yes. Since 5.3 I've stopped using my PVP Gear in most situations, because with the item level being 496 and seeing players with gear anywhere between 515 and 540, lets face it, I haven't got a prayer. I'm not overly fussed about getting PVP Gear this season, I've hardly done any BGs lately. My plan for the Emissary of Ordos mount will be to get Flex/Burden of Eternity Gear and do it with that gear.
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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Leitka View Post
    Thanks for reiterating a point I made multiple times (that they are vanity items), it really drives home the point that you read my post. I'll also remind you competitive pvp, too, is mostly about vanity rewards, so...there's little argument to be made that vanity items don't matter. High-end PvP is about vanity rewards and prestige.
    The second item is not a guaranteed drop-rate for the coins, as farming kills on the Isle is. It also has a much longer cooldown than the Censer.

    A pvp-incentivized portion of some new content prefers pve gear heavily to pvp gear. Regardless of the unimportance of balancing gear in world pvp as a whole, this is not something that is unacceptable to bring up as an issue. It is one, from a game-design perspective.

    No amount of contrarian logic can change the fact that that's clearly a poorly thought out situation, and let's not muddle words; contrarianism is pretty apparently the aim of the first 3 responses to this thread. Generic, formulaic responses people have learned from various conversations about world pvp over the years divorced from the realization that incentivization (or the normal lack there-of) in World PvP is, in fact, the basis for that parroted thought.
    I agree with this again, my proposed solution;

    Make pvp crafted gear 490 ilevel, tyranicall 522 (like it should be for a minimum anyway), and grevious the same as normal mode, and allow upgrades. 553 - 561. That would still be around 20 ilevels behind top level PVE gear but its better than 60. Also increase the effectiveness of pvp power, and (though it wont happen) re add resilienced to pvp gear.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Morrissey View Post
    I agree with this again, my proposed solution;

    Make pvp crafted gear 490 ilevel, tyranicall 522 (like it should be for a minimum anyway), and grevious the same as normal mode, and allow upgrades. 553 - 561. That would still be around 20 ilevels behind top level PVE gear but its better than 60. Also increase the effectiveness of pvp power, and (though it wont happen) re add resilienced to pvp gear.
    So you want to make pvp gear mandatory for PVE progression

  15. #15
    I have to agree.

    I pve only in MOP, no PvP. In my PVE gear as a fury warrior i have 545ilvl, legendary cloak etc.., two HC TOT weapons, the whole thing. When i use my burst CDs and a pot in world pvp on a pvp geared player, ehm, he pretty much dies very very fast, i have 610k hp while a pvp warrior is at around 400k, the disparity in damage/HP is huge. And this is just day 2 of 5.4, we just started progressing in SoO. when i'll be in 570+ ilvl, with 700-750k hp, it's going to be even worst for the other side.

    As an example, a full geared pvp DK (if he didn't transmog pvp gear on pve pieces, but his 420k hp makes me sure he was full tyrranical) started to attack me today, i was afk so he got me to 50% hp before i realised i was attacked, i burst him down and still had around 120-130k hp. That is how strong good pve gear is atm in world pvp.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Coraulten View Post
    So you want to make pvp gear mandatory for PVE progression

    No, decrease the secondary stat budget a bit if that is your concern and increase the pvp power budget. Having gear pieces that take 2/3 weeks to farm per piece be the same ilevel as NORMAL level SOO gear is not making the mandatory . SOO normal is a cake walk anyway, a lot of guild have 9 bosses + in the first night of progression. Having the same item level as a normal mode raid tier does not make it near manadatory anyway, make it 3 item levels lower if it pleases you.

    I can't even kill mobs on the island in pvp gear without some pve hero with ilevel 560 killing me in 3 dots (im a dk)
    Last edited by Morrissey; 2013-09-12 at 02:35 PM.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Morrissey View Post
    With all of the various implemental improvements on pve gear, thunderforged, valor upgrades,etc pve item levels have spiralled.

    Obviously in arena and bgs that is no issue, they just get scaled down. But with world pvp , and the introduction of partially a 'third' faction in world pvp, there is quite a lot of battling between players going on the newly introduced island.

    However the pvpers should be able to compete right? Wrong.

    The removal of resilience from pvp gear means that the only advantage for pve gear is pvp power. With maxed pvp power gems and trinkets you are looking at about 16-30%.

    The maximum pve item level _LAST PATCH_ was 549 (thunderforged heroic), with the highest pvp ilevel being 498. Now you factor in that the flux and normal raids are 550+ easily, not to mention thunderforged/heroic style inflation , and the 600 item level cape, pvpers do not stand a single chance in world pvp with simmilar effort put into getting there gear.

    The delay of the arena season means pvpers will still be stuck with 498 for even longer, whilst pvers can reastically all get 535 easily and up to 550 if not more with not that much effort, whilst pvpers have to wait a week or more to farm 522 gear one piece per week.

    Am I missing something, how do pvpers compete in world pvp?
    Whit current pvp gear 498 you do 39% more damage to others players. Can 40 more ilvl in pve gear do that ? Also pvp gear bonuses are better for pvp.
    whit 75% damage reduction i dont see how any pve geared player can kill fast other player.

  18. #18
    There no reason under any circumstance that a player who hasnt PvP'd for their gear should have any sort of PvP advantage over the PvP geared player who WORKED for his gear.
    World PvP IS a part of the game and the fact a PvE geared player can have the edge over someone who earned PvP gear is pretty stupid.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by t3180 View Post
    Whit current pvp gear 498 you do 39% more damage to others players. Can 40 more ilvl in pve gear do that ? Also pvp gear bonuses are better for pvp.
    whit 75% damage reduction i dont see how any pve geared player can kill fast other player.
    PVP gear even with every pvp piece will put you at about 20-25% pvp power , that is including gems.

    PVE Gear has more sockets, and a way higher budget, the 60 item level difference means nearly a 100% difference in stats, look at the stat budget difference on wowhead.

    Then you factor in the extra sockets on pve gear, AND the legendary cloak having a proc + 3 stats + sockets (?) the difference is gigantic. And the fact from flex / normal mode raiding you can easily get 2/3 pieces per week, a pvper might get 1 522 ring, whilst a pver gets 3 540 + pieces?

  20. #20
    Just a side note, pvp power add just dmg, for what i know agy add crit and dodge, and str give parry.

    If i as rogue have to choose an item with 300-400 more agy and lose some pvp power, i go for the agy and extra crit
    Last edited by Bradley; 2013-09-12 at 05:10 PM.


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