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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Tankitbetter View Post
    3 = a bunch now? Yeesh, hyperbole.

    Getting gold proves you have some competence. It doesn't mean you're a heroic raider - however, if you cannot get gold, you probably should be in LFR.
    So having just completed a current tier of heroics while it was current (quite a tough one I might add with DA and Lei Shen in there) the advice of some one day week casual raid leader is that I should drop back to lfr? Sounds like retarded advice.

    Back on topic, it sounds like you aren't sure where to pitch your raid team. Ex hardcore raider leading casuals one night a week and making them jump through hoops to meet your standards. While standards aren't a bad thing I'm not sure your philosophy is in line with the teams. Having said that, its your team to lead (or destroy in this case)

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroesec View Post
    Instead of researching SoO to it's fullest extent, you force people to jump through an arbitary hoop that has no useful purpose?

    Terrible, terrible, terrible idea. Raid Skills and "Proving Grounds" skill and DPS skills are completely different. As a warlock, if you want to do Proving Grounds easy, you go destro, just like the more "bursty" bosses in Brawlers Guild (Ah'uroo in particular). But Destro in a raid? That's crazy talk. In proving grounds, you can stun then fear the monkey. I don't know the last time fear was useful in PVE....

    Your raiders were right to quit on you in my opinion.
    No amount of research increases a players basic skill.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Tankitbetter View Post
    What are your thoughts?
    My thoughts are that you are an egocentric ass-hat who cares more about puffing up his own ego than the good of his guild.

  4. #64
    It sounds childish for a casual guild =/ You should just make them fight for raid spots. It sounds more reasonable. You should always log your raids @ WoL see whos the most retarded of them all, make an announcement that you are recruiting their class and spec, by that you just gave them their queue to leave without sounding like an ass.

    Doing those solo content doesn't prove anything, really. We have 1 mage and 1 elemental shaman on my 25 man who is always sit out progression raids because both of them suck (they are friends), every time we look @ logs they cbf using healthstones and defensive cds that couldve saved them from deaths, and they die ALOT, like 50% of our bres's the whole raid night goes to them. Both of them got rank 10 brawlers on the day it came out with 522ish ilvl (no gear upgrades yet, and not many heroic kills), i remember because they were parading their mounts on shrine.

    Only proved that solo content is cakewalk for those classes because of their mirror images, burst, lust etc. Its not the same for everyone.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Sierro View Post
    I probably should be in LFR then. I suck at proving grounds. Can't tank silver, can't heal bronze, can't dps gold. And yet I have done ToT as tank no problem. It's almost, ALMOST, like they don't have any correlation. Who would have thought?
    I would argue that if you can not reach silver in tank after actually attempting to do so, you were highly likely carried through ToT by your group. Sadly, it is very easy to get carried as tank. I have seen terrible tanks in guilds that had 11/13 HC last tier. If the same players played dpsers they would be shunted down to a guild not even in heroic progress.

    While there is not a direct correlation between the two, there are similarities. If you put it to the extreme. The top 10 players in Proving Ground Endless for each class/spec on WoL are pretty good at playing their class and are also highly likely good at raiding aswell. It certainly does not mean the are the 10 best players of their spec at raiding, but it tells you they are knowledgable of their class.
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    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  6. #66
    I am Murloc! Airwaves's Avatar
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    Are you fucking serious? If my GM asked me to do that single player shit I would tell him to fuck off. I have no interest in doing them and if someone was to try and make me dam right all hell would brake lose.
    Last edited by Airwaves; 2013-09-15 at 03:06 AM.
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  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by torterra275 View Post
    I'm going to guess you aren't raiding heroics. So no, Gold should not be required (Gold is tuned for heroics according to Blizzard). Silver maybe, but definitely not gold.

    However doing Proving Grounds for a raid spot is still stupid logic. Bench those who can't master the mechanics instead.
    I don't recall ever seeing them say that. From my memory, their approximate estimate was Bronze - H Dungeons, Silver - LFR, Gold - Normal raids.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    OP - You posted here wanting thoughts... but you're rejecting every single criticism. So WTF did you post here for? You can do whatever you want. Your raid, your rules. But don't ask for peoples' thoughts if you don't actually want to hear anything that doesn't agree with your opinion.
    I wanted your thoughts. I'm enjoying the discussion. Are you not?

  9. #69
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    make them do endless 30 imo

  10. #70
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    Gold isnt hard for most classes, and would otherwise require some thought to complete as dps. fyi i did everything on gold on ptr, and only need to get healing to gold ( up form silver ofc ) on live.
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  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Tankitbetter View Post
    No amount of research increases a players basic skill.
    My continuous 5 and a half years as GM of a 4 (once five) day a week hardcore raiding guild that has gotten kills most players only dream of says you're factually incorrect. I can think of, off hand, a dozen times we took a chance on someone under-skilled but with a PERFECT attitude, worked with them a little bit, and in no time became indispensable to our guild success.

    What you just wrote is the biggest load of crap I've ever read. If that were the case, what's the point of all those damn "how to do Lei Shen as a X" "How to do Dark Animus as X Spec" "How to Maximize your effectiveness at Sha of Fear as a X" videos / guides, etc.

    It's because just like those Proving Grounds you just nuked your guild over, there is an effective strat to everything that supersedes "players basic skill".

    All i can say is, enjoy 10 man. Your dumb as a shit idea just killed yet another 25m. It shows a GM who views his raiders as disposable worker bees who have to jump through whatever arbitrary hoops he drops, rather than partners and teammates that are equally invested in guild success. It's no wonder they bailed. I wonder what other terrible ideas of yours they put up with.

  12. #72
    I honestly think you deserve being kicked into places i refuse to describe right now, because no matter how easy it was, Proving Grounds is the best example of how little clue Blizzard actually has about how their classes work and raids actually look like, and i tell you that as someone who managed that fairly quick as well. Solving Proving Grounds means nothing. There are people i know that got Gold that i wouldn't even take with me if they jumped to full Heroics Orgrimmar Gear no matter how much i like them as a person because they are not reliable by any means and that counts for both, healers and damage-dealers. Yet, one of my co-healers didn't manage gold and is constantly raging about his inability too... and yet he is pretty strong and is - just like me - a regular in our raid and guild since years for a good reason. And we are quite picky ourselfs i think... even if i would call it reasonably picky. Also... mind the fact all Achievments are Accountwide. And dont dare to think the classes walk in with the same difficulty. It's hilarious how different the experiences are. So if your Hunter got his Gold... maybe he did it with his Death-Knight? And disregard what Blizzard said, the Equip also does count a lot for PG because of the horribly way the downgrading is managed...

    Either way: Requiring it is a stupid idea. Give it a Month and i bet it will be tweaked down anyway and your whole "Hurrdurr get gold" is worth a whole lot of nothing. All you will have achieved is offending a few people, and making some more shake their head over you.
    Last edited by SoundOfGuns; 2013-09-15 at 03:11 AM.
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  13. #73
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    I'd leave your guild OP, and go raid with people who know wtf is up.
    Where the req's for raiding MAKE SENSE and include meeting a shallow gear check, gems, chants, vent, dbm or the like, and have watched the vids to see how it's done.
    Simple, makes sense, isn't driven by some gm's skewed sense of reality.
    If ANYONE can do gold PG's, wtf is that proving to you? Not a damn thing.
    Except you feel a need to make people jump through hoops for no good reason.
    Yah...I'd leave you.

    I think you should rethink your strat. People aren't going to line up and jump through hoops to get into raids anymore, if you doubt that, let me ask you how many people seriously apply to your website or whathaveyou for a raid position with something like a resume these days?
    I bet it's fallen off a LOT. If you even do that.

    Maybe you'd be better just being happy you can fill a raid with 9 other semi-cohesive people who can show up on time, listen and execute the strats?
    Personally I think you've confused chip dip for the main course and you better get your head on straight before it kills your guild, and it will.
    Oh yes, it will.
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  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroesec View Post
    My continuous 5 and a half years as GM of a 4 (once five) day a week hardcore raiding guild that has gotten kills most players only dream of says you're factually incorrect. I can think of, off hand, a dozen times we took a chance on someone under-skilled but with a PERFECT attitude, worked with them a little bit, and in no time became indispensable to our guild success.

    What you just wrote is the biggest load of crap I've ever read. If that were the case, what's the point of all those damn "how to do Lei Shen as a X" "How to do Dark Animus as X Spec" "How to Maximize your effectiveness at Sha of Fear as a X" videos / guides, etc.

    It's because just like those Proving Grounds you just nuked your guild over, there is an effective strat to everything that supersedes "players basic skill".

    All i can say is, enjoy 10 man. Your dumb as a shit idea just killed yet another 25m. It shows a GM who views his raiders as disposable worker bees who have to jump through whatever arbitrary hoops he drops, rather than partners and teammates that are equally invested in guild success. It's no wonder they bailed. I wonder what other terrible ideas of yours they put up with.
    I would not compare your guild to his guild. Players from yours are all very likely to be highly motivated to get better and better. Players from his guild are very likely to just get through raids to get gear while using as little extra effort as possible. Different goals & mindsets.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Creotor View Post
    I would not compare your guild to his guild. Players from yours are all very likely to be highly motivated to get better and better. Players from his guild are very likely to just get through raids to get gear while using as little extra effort as possible. Different goals & mindsets.
    I know the goals of the guild are completely different. But the strategy has to be at least SOMEWHAT the same. Or do folks just generally not respect the other human beings they play with? Have I been in my little Island too long?

  16. #76
    The Lightbringer Simulacrum's Avatar
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    While doing well in proving grounds doesn't exactly translate into doing well in raids, if you genuinely can't manage to achieve gold on your main spec within 2-3 attempts, then you lack even a basic grasp of the fundamentals of your class, or the hand-eye coordination to do well in any in-game setting (including raids) that punishes you for failing. That may not be a big deal for most people who play WoW, and I can't really blame them, but those are the guys LFR is for.

    I would seriously question the competency of anyone who wouldn't manage to achieve gold on their main spec. Endless 30+ is a different matter, and can be extremely difficult for some classes (though not for any of the healer specs in my experience), but gold?
    Last edited by Simulacrum; 2013-09-15 at 03:13 AM.
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  17. #77
    @OP

    I for one do not think what you are asking is unreasonable, but it is surely uncommon.

    Proving ground may not be a perfect measure for anything, different classes have it harder / easier, so you have to compare classes. A disc priest making it to endless 30 is more impressive than a dk getting to endless 50 for example.

    If you were asking for people to get endless 30, I would say that is quite unrealistic as that requires a very variating level of skill depending on spec.
    Though nothing wrong with asking for gold. Any class and any spec can very easily reach gold, it only requires basic knowledge of your class and role to do so really and is not much to ask for.

    Does getting gold mean someone is a good player? No, it does not, but it atleast tells you they have a small clue what they are doing. I think it is a good measure to be honest on my realm people have already started using it for pugs requiring either gold or endless 20, something that I have nothing against.

    What I specifically like about soloing content is that you cant be carried through it. See so many people here saying that raid progress is everything. You can be, and several people get, carried through raid content very easily. You can not be carried through soloing content as only you yourself are there. I am a vivid believer of that soloing stuff makes trains you to become a better player overall. I think this youtube video says it all to be honest.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdeyG-VZ0Sc

    Back in T11 I used to do a lot of soloing on my hunter, I spent over 5 raid nights and 600 wipes getting Sunwell down. At that point in time, I would have been more impressed by a hunter saying "I soloed M'uru" than a hunter saying "I killed cho'gall on heroic". A hunter that soloed M'uru in that gear, knew what he was doing. A hunter that had killed heroic cho'gall, sure, he could and was likely a good/decent player, but there is no certainty in it.

    I really like proving grounds, and think completeing them is going to help a lot of people learning to utilize their class to their potential. The important thing is to compare yourself to other people of your spec, do not compare a mage in proving grounds with a druid in proving grounds.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroesec View Post
    My continuous 5 and a half years as GM of a 4 (once five) day a week hardcore raiding guild that has gotten kills most players only dream of says you're factually incorrect. I can think of, off hand, a dozen times we took a chance on someone under-skilled but with a PERFECT attitude, worked with them a little bit, and in no time became indispensable to our guild success.

    What you just wrote is the biggest load of crap I've ever read. If that were the case, what's the point of all those damn "how to do Lei Shen as a X" "How to do Dark Animus as X Spec" "How to Maximize your effectiveness at Sha of Fear as a X" videos / guides, etc.

    It's because just like those Proving Grounds you just nuked your guild over, there is an effective strat to everything that supersedes "players basic skill".

    All i can say is, enjoy 10 man. Your dumb as a shit idea just killed yet another 25m. It shows a GM who views his raiders as disposable worker bees who have to jump through whatever arbitrary hoops he drops, rather than partners and teammates that are equally invested in guild success. It's no wonder they bailed. I wonder what other terrible ideas of yours they put up with.
    Hi. I appreciate the fact that your raid is good - however, you have much better metal to work with. I will tell you, from personal experience, that working with players who are under-skilled but have a perfect attitude became awesome raiders. I will also tell you that requiring a player to do proving grounds is part of "working with" under-skilled players.

    I'm honestly not sure how "researching doesn't increase basic skill" is "WOW YOU'RE SUCH AN ASSHOLE AND YOU DONT HELP YOUR PLAYERS."

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by SoundOfGuns View Post
    Either way: Requiring it is a stupid idea. Give it a Month and i bet it will be tweaked down anyway and your whole "Hurrdurr get gold" is worth a whole lot of nothing. All you will have achieved is offending a few people, and making some more shake their head over you.
    I never said Gold was hard. I, in fact, said it was decently difficult but that I 1-shot tank. Would you like to rethink your statement?

  19. #79
    Class balance is still a bit of an issue with proving grounds like boomkins for example requiring a bit more expertise in the class compared to warlocks. I would not want to do it as boomkin on my druid but had a lot of fun on my warlock. From my perspective at the more casual level you should encourage your guildies to run it and get their feedback from it to build an idea of the usefulness it will be as a metric for potential recruits in particular those on other realms and new towards raiding. Along with this based on what kind of additional perks you might provide to your guildies you could try to find another way to reward players who do obtain it in return for their time invested. It is not like some government mandated certification which turns people off anyways. Definitely should have gone in there with more of a helping hand and encouragement towards your fellow guildies.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroesec View Post
    I know the goals of the guild are completely different. But the strategy has to be at least SOMEWHAT the same. Or do folks just generally not respect the other human beings they play with? Have I been in my little Island too long?
    Where in any of my text did I display disrespect for my raiders?

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