protection legendaries.

[hlx]

hi fellow protadins,

I am interested in your opinion on the choice of both meta gem and meta cloak.

We are a casual raiding team - 10man, 2x3h a week, we clear normals and just dabble in heroics, went 4/14 in first week.
Before we went into SoO I went with tanking cloak and meta expecting bosses to hit hard and my survivability to be an issue. It wasn't. Generally nothing can really kill you if you are paying attention and have cooldowns ready.

This is why I am thinking about going back to dps cloak/meta. I was just wondering if the dps ones weren't nerfed too hard in 5.4 to warrant keeping the tanking ones. How about going with dps cloak and tanking meta?

What are your opinions on this? Thanks.

[TEHPALLYTANK]

Since looking through the paladin forums seems to be too much effort for you...
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...cloak-for-prot
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-meta-come-5-4
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...k-and-tankadin


Tank meta/dps cloak is what you'll most likely want. Have the legendary tank cloak in your bags just in case there are mechanics to cheese with it.

[hlx]

isn't the even lowered dps proc from cloak more worth it than the tanking proc which isn't useful until truly clutch situations?

[gerus]

TL;DR from those other three posts:
Meta gem is worth about a 15% across the board damage reduction. Remove when you are going for WoL rankings or just have stopped caring about smooth damage reduction being a thing.

The cloak procs more than you think it does during progression but there are fights that it doesn't really matter. If it saves you from 1-2 deaths over the course of a reset it's probably saved more raid time than the ~4% DPS the other cloak provides.

[Nobleshield]

isn't the even lowered dps proc from cloak more worth it than the tanking proc which isn't useful until truly clutch situations?

Hotly debated, but the opinion tends to be that no, the DPS proc isn't worth more. If you die as a tank, chances are it will be a wipe. If the cloak saves you from dying, that's a wipe averted and time saved.

[Deleted]

... went 4/14 in first week.
Before we went into SoO I went with tanking cloak and meta expecting bosses to hit hard and my survivability to be an issue. It wasn't. Generally nothing can really kill you if you are paying attention and have cooldowns ready.

Yes, but two points (a) later bosses apparently hit harder;
(b) unless they are under-geared, tanks normally die when they make mistakes (e.g. learning a fight and not know when to have CD ready, fluff a key mechanic etc)

Best thing is to have both in your bags and switch as you think best. Using the tank stuff would be my defaults, but could see using the dps ones for the first four as very viable (we were 3 healing 10N and extra dps was really required for us for Norushen's 7 min enrage, so I switched to dps stuff for that).

[Deleted]

My last raid on my paladin thursday night my cloak procced about 32 times throughout the raid, some a 3rd was probably on trash the rest procced on about ~20 boss pulls. (thok + siege + paragons + garrosh).

More importantly - it procced 2 times on our garrosh kill.

edit: silly me obv it'll proc once per wipe minimum - I'll have another look.

Co-tank: 22 procs in 18 wipes + 1 proc in 4 kills

Myself: 24 procs in 18 wipes + 2 procs in 4 kills (both in garrosh though).

[trystero]

It depends on the content you're doing. I held the belief that the tank cloak is a poor choice because it seemed to be used as a coverup for gross mistakes. But that came from outgearing the content on ToT, where I was very rarely in danger of dying. My guild transitioned to 25s right after we killed H Jin'rokh, spending about a month gearing the new people. This meant I got a ton of upgrades for H Horridon and beyond. Additionally, ToT seemed like a raid with many well-advertised nukes and not much damage outside of those.

When doing current content at the intended gear level, tank damage is legitimate. Deaths happen. The monk tank from Midwinter has said that he and Sloot often die on their progression heroic kills. Looking at their streams, that does seem to be the case. It's not only because the bosses hit hard for your gear; it's also because you don't know the fight all that well. I made a ton of mistakes the first few times I did Sha of Pride because I didn't know the fight at all. Did these mistakes lead to a wipe, no, but if it had been a harder boss - like an early-tier heroic - then I probably would have wiped the group and wasted everyone's time. The best nerf for a fight is experience, and you frankly don't have that when exploring new content.

On the first 4 bosses of Siege, tank damage isn't a big deal. Check back later and it ramps up considerably. If you're not planning on pushing progression, then it doesn't matter what you take to be totally honest. By the time you get to the hard hitting content, you'll be close to or straight up outgearing it anyway.

[hlx]

how often does the dps cloak procs for a tank? what I'm getting at is if the damage increase from the proc is big enough to be noticeable.

for a dps meta - it used to be a 10% dmg increase that is now a 4-6% from what I read
on a single target fight, how much % of your damage is done by the cloak's proc?

[gerus]

how often does the dps cloak procs for a tank? what I'm getting at is if the damage increase from the proc is big enough to be noticeable.

for a dps meta - it used to be a 10% dmg increase that is now a 4-6% from what I read
on a single target fight, how much % of your damage is done by the cloak's proc?

Single target? I think it contributes about 2-4%. It's value proposition is mostly around fights where you can clump adds.

[Deleted]

how often does the dps cloak procs for a tank? what I'm getting at is if the damage increase from the proc is big enough to be noticeable.

for a dps meta - it used to be a 10% dmg increase that is now a 4-6% from what I read
on a single target fight, how much % of your damage is done by the cloak's proc?

I went with dps cloak and meta for the first 10 bosses (forgot to swap) - think it did as much as 10% of my dmg - meta gem was never worth it though.

If you're 1 shotting everything - go for the dps cloak - but if you have to progress through each fight it's probably best you go for the tank cloak.

Edit:

Kills = avg 5.4%

wipes = avg 6%

[hlx]

that's why I asked, naturally on the aoe situation the dps cloak will pull ahead a bit more.

[judgementofantonidas]

how often does the dps cloak procs for a tank? what I'm getting at is if the damage increase from the proc is big enough to be noticeable.

for a dps meta - it used to be a 10% dmg increase that is now a 4-6% from what I read
on a single target fight, how much % of your damage is done by the cloak's proc?

the bigger problem is not the useless proc but loss of a sizeable chunk of haste in exchange for next to useless stats.

[Nillo]

Let's see:
Dps meta has been nerfed for tanks and the damage is now negligible
Tank meta has been significantly buffed through higher uptime and reducing all damage
-> f*** the dps meta

Dps cloak has better stats and the proc deals massive damage on aoe (10%++) and mehish damage on bosses. (~5%)
Tank cloak proc ranges from meh to amazing
-> May want to have both available.

[gerus]

the bigger problem is not the useless proc but loss of a sizeable chunk of haste in exchange for next to useless stats.

Let's back that one up a bit. The tanking cloak has double the expertise (you'll likely reforge crit to exp on dps one), half the haste, and you are swapping crit and parry. I don't disagree you are taking an itemization hit but it's far from trading worthless stats. Point for point expertise is a significantly better smoothing stat.

[Nillo]

Let's back that one up a bit. The tanking cloak has double the expertise (you'll likely reforge crit to exp on dps one), half the haste, and you are swapping crit and parry. I don't disagree you are taking an itemization hit but it's far from trading worthless stats. Point for point expertise is a significantly better smoothing stat.

It's more like:
600 parry , 600 expertise (which btw. for most well geared paladins ends up being 600 mastery)
vs 600 haste 600 crit

[pld]

While the LMG is a given (unless going for max dps), the cloak seems to be a fight-by-fight decision you'll have to make. Our guild only cleared the first 4 bosses in SoO and I never felt like I was in danger of dropping low. I would imagine (especially after taking a look at later fights), i'll have to swap out my DPS cloak for the prot cloak on certain fights.

After swapping on the prot cloak (to test it out), I hardly noticed the dip in haste. My GCD felt slightly slower so everything felt a bit clunky at first, but it wasn't too difficult to adjust. Also, while my IL has bumped up from 542 to 549 this past week, my haste has actually slipped by ~200. I took several upgrades (yay for being only plate this past week), that either had no or less haste than my previous gear....so that could have been a part of it as well.

[Deleted]

It's more like:
600 parry , 600 expertise (which btw. for most well geared paladins ends up being 600 mastery)
vs 600 haste 600 crit

Actually you might find yourself losing a lot of expertise if you wanna upgrade your throne items with t16 ones since there's not that many haste/exp ones.

I personally don't have the durumu leggs and dropping 1 expertise item could cost me haste.

[gerus]

It's more like:
600 parry , 600 expertise (which btw. for most well geared paladins ends up being 600 mastery)
vs 600 haste 600 crit

And if we apply stat weights to them:
600 parry (600 * 0.35) + 600 exp (600 * 1.01) = 210 + 606 = 816
600 haste (600 * 1.00) + 600 crit (600 * 0.00) = 600 + 0 = 600

It seems like there is a huge bias towards haste at the expense of ignoring every other stat that contributes to incoming damage smoothing. Expertise and mastery are really strong stats. I'm not advocating that the tanking cloak is better itemized. I'm tired of hearing that it is clearly inferior in itemization when in reality it is a lot closer than most people admit. There is more than one stat that contributes to damage smoothing. When we have a lot of stat points free in things other than haste, it can easily balance for the lack of haste.

[Deleted]

And if we apply stat weights to them:
600 parry (600 * 0.35) + 600 exp (600 * 1.01) = 210 + 606 = 816
600 haste (600 * 1.00) + 600 crit (600 * 0.00) = 600 + 0 = 600

It seems like there is a huge bias towards haste at the expense of ignoring every other stat that contributes to incoming damage smoothing. Expertise and mastery are really strong stats. I'm not advocating that the tanking cloak is better itemized. I'm tired of hearing that it is clearly inferior in itemization when in reality it is a lot closer than most people admit. There is more than one stat that contributes to damage smoothing. When we have a lot of stat points free in things other than haste, it can easily balance for the lack of haste.

It is clearly an inferior itemization considerig that the expertise will most likely bring you over the cap making it almost useless on the cloak.

Also stat weights are individual opinions which is why any discussion using stat weights as hard evidence is pointless.