Stop me when I sound sexist...

[Rhaide]

..or racist, or hateful in any way.

Lately I've become very disillusioned with the world for one reason. There is a growing, very vocal, group of people that will shout you down and belittle you for disagreeing with their definition of morality.

I'm not some crazy member of the KKK, I'm not a hateful misogynist. I'm just a guy who often feels bullied by the groups too rabidly pushing their own, overly progressive beliefs.

I can't go a day without seeing an article about how women are mistreated in video games and movies, today I was verbally abused by multiple people flinging personal insults in all caps because I claimed it was reasonable for a group to target white males with their product if that was their built-in demographic. I politely and respectfully made the point that, so long as they aren't suggesting that women are lesser beings, it doesn't hurt anyone to focus on a male demographic some of the time.

The specific discussion was about the avengers movie. Someone made a facebook post about how it's not fair that it's a male power-fantasy and the women characters don't get enough respect or air-time. I gave the viewpoint that they are trying to monopolize on the people who are most likely to buy into the movie and they aren't trying to demean women. I very specifically pointed out that it wouldn't be wrong to make a superhero movie about a strong woman, it would actually be something I would love to see; but it makes sense that they assumed they would make more money by doing a male-focused movie.

Is this wrong? Did I say something horribly sexist?


Here's a slightly more controversial, but in my opinion, alarming thought.

Who is the real victim of male dominance in video games? Think about it, women are often in need of aid or seen as a prize or commodity; this is upsetting and obviously a bit rude... but on a deep level, who does it cause real problems for?

Women play a game with a weak female character, and they fight to overcome the stereotype, they write articles, they argue, they fight for what they believe in. Men play a game with a weak female character and they come to the belief that a man's value comes from his ability to help women, which leads to an unrealistic understanding of self worth. It's seems obvious to me that the primary effect of this dynamic in mainstream games is an unrealistic sense of WHAT self worth is in males.

(mass effect 1 spoiler ahead)There's a reason most men saved Ashley in mass effect instead of Kaidan, most guys feel worse about themselves when they don't help a woman. This is unhealthy because in real life WOMEN DON'T NEED A MAN'S HELP, they are equal to us, not lesser. We are taught that our value is in helping them, which is in itself wrong.

How many women think 'wow I sure would like if a guy saved me'? How many men think 'wow it felt good to save her'? It seems obvious which gender these stereotypes are affecting more.

Thoughts?

EDIT: Fixed a present/past tense grammatical error.

[StaeleAilar]

From experience the best thing to do in those sorts of situations is to allow the radical modern feminist to blab on. They prove to the world what an imbicile they are and in the process prove your point aswell.

What people fail to realise is that every product has a target audience and that is who the product is created for. Sure there will always be outliers that the companies did not anticipate would enjoy the product yet they still do, but the target market is who and what they aim for.

Since most of your post ends up about women whinging about men blah blah, as i said, modern feminism seeks to empower women to the point where men are subservient to women as was the case 50 years ago with women being subservient to men. The irony is that feminism came into play then to achieve "equality" (where all people are equal regardless of the sexual organs they possess). Feminism today still strives for "equality", but define it differently whereby it is ok to be superior over man and expect all men to behave like lapdogs.

Tl;dr - ignore the fools. People will always find something to bitch about.

[Underverse]

Stereotypes do affect both males and females. For males, it puts them in a position of power. For females it does not. The question isn't a matter of who it's affecting more, but how it's affecting them.

I do agree that stereotypes for both males and females are exacerbated and need to be revised. Stereotypes are pretty much by definition an absolutist version of a half-truth. Rarely will a stereotype apply to all members of a particular group, especially when those groups are divided by sex or race.

[Airwaves]

(mass effect 1 spoiler ahead)There's a reason most men saved Ashley in mass effect instead of Kaidan, most guys feel worse about themselves when they don't help a woman. This is unhealthy because in real life WOMEN DON'T NEED A MAN'S HELP, they are equal to us, not lesser. We are taught that our value is in helping them, which is in itself wrong.

What? I save Ashley every time because Kaidan is a whinny bitch. It has nothing to do with what sex they are.

[Damsbo]

Remember the ship that sank out of the coast of Italy?
A woman there was angry, that the men on that ship, didnt let the women off of it first.

Point: You cant have your cake and eat it too.

[Rhaide]

Stereotypes do affect both males and females. For males, it puts them in a position of power. For females it does not. The question isn't a matter of who it's affecting more, but how it's affecting them.

I do agree that stereotypes for both males and females are exacerbated and need to be revised. Stereotypes are pretty much by definition an absolutist version of a half-truth. Rarely will a stereotype apply to all members of a particular group, especially when those groups are divided by sex or race.

I absolutely agree with you that the issue affects both men and women, but looking at the OUTCOME of years of male-dominant game design, we have a majority of strong women over submissive ones and desperate men over self-assured ones. Regardless of how is SEEMS like it will affect women, the outcome is observable at this point and it hasn't affected women in a symmetrical way. It HAS affected men in one.

[Ghaleon]

Don't let it bother you OP people are whiny and can't take any criticism, or opinion etc that differs from the one they have. They can't even take any harsh words and cry at the drop of a hat world has grown into a bunch of crybabies who wear heart on their sleeves.

Speak how you will and do not filter it just cause someone may get upset.

[Rhaide]

What? I save Ashley every time because Kaidan is a whinny bitch. It has nothing to do with what sex they are.

Kaidan is whiny and ashley is abrasive and poorly written. Neither is very redeeming to be fair.

[Underverse]

I absolutely agree with you that the issue affects both men and women, but looking at the OUTCOME of years of male-dominant game design, we have a majority of strong women over submissive ones and desperate men over self-assured ones. Regardless of how is SEEMS like it will affect women, the outcome is observable at this point and it hasn't affected women in a symmetrical way. It HAS affected men in one.

I don't think your observations are quite true. Desperate male? I haven't seen a lot of those in recent protagonists. Strong females? Yes, there are some. But I doubt there are a majority. Of course, I'm not saying there should be a majority. Males and females are biologically different at an intrinsic level.

[Aqua]

Snipped OP Comment.

Thoughts?

Hi I'm a feminist, and I empathize with you ENTIRELY. There are far too many aggressively pushing their agendas and not realizing that it's alienating those who would gladly stand with us/others on many issues. Please don't loose faith in the good of causes because the loud assholish ones are looking for a platform to spew their backward way of tackling the issues.

These people are damaged and broken themselves. And see anyone who isn't exactly like them in their way of thinking as 'the enemy'.
Which is... just... crap. I implore you to ignore them, and continue to be a good person in your own right, no matter what you believe or feel is just.
You should be convinced of causes and social issues by people who are calm, rational and benevolent in their approach to something you might have unintentionally done something that conflicts with their views.

Every group of people has them, including your own groups! Pay them no heed.

[Rhaide]

The fact that most women and children need protecting during a crisis is an age-old adage. It wasn't made up a few decades ago by a chauvinist. Of course there are strong females and inferior males and there always has been. That doesn't change biology and the fact that the average female was not built to physically endure what the average male was. Get into all the intellectual debates you want about it, but when the shit hits the fan, men are expected to protect the women and children for a reason.

You're scientifically correct and most reasonable people would agree with you that physically, men in their prime are the strongest group. The problem here is more about the perception of coping with a difficult situation. In games where agility, intelligence, or creativity save the day, men are still usually the ones making the difference, and helping women. This isn't true of real life, women aren't drastically inferior to men real life. Situations are case by case, there are women who are stronger, smarter, and more creative than I am, just as there are women who are weaker, dumber, and less thoughtful. Strength is somewhat of an outlier and isn't (usually) the controversy.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't think your observations are quite true. Desperate male? I haven't seen a lot of those in recent protagonists. Strong females? Yes, there are some. But I doubt there are a majority. Of course, I'm not saying there should be a majority. Males and females are biologically different at an intrinsic level.

I'm not speaking about desperate protagonists, I'm speaking of real life desperate men. People who cry about being 'friendzoned' and follow every RE:girl on youtube. They want to feel important to a woman. It's a horrible way to live, every person, male or female should be self-assured. Women are given something to overcome, men are given something to ascribe to. The same thing can be said about how women used to be (and somewhat still are) portrayed in dolls, television shows, and video games: they were told how they should look; this is horrible too, but I'm talking about the 'damsel in distress' bit right now, so I'm sorry for going off topic.

[bayushisan]

There is a point to be made about the representation of women in games and comics though. There are very few games out there where the main protagonist is a female character, unless there's a gender swap option available in a game like Skyrim; in which case it doesn't really matter. Think about it for a minute. Would it really be so terrible to have more games with a female lead? Acting like men are the only audience is the whole problem, because we aren't. Women are an increasing part of the gaming community and they deserve to have game made for them too. They aren't complaining that SOME games are targeted towards a male audience, they're complaining that MOST games are targeted towards a male audience. (percentage wise I'd probably say around 85% or more)

Comics are even worse these days what with the debacle at DC lately, and morons like Mark Millar, and Todd McFarlane running off at the mouth, and don't get me started on how Frank Miller's work has gone to crap when it comes to how he portrays women. The point is that they have a right to speak out about this and to make noise about it until someone listens and someone realizes that this community isn't an all boys club.

[Spectral]

I've noted an increase in the usage of buzzwords. Fucking everything is now "problematic", "appropriative", "oppressive", "misogyny", and so on. The more extreme internet bits of the social justice movement is completely unhinged.

[Raptor With a Saber]

you meant no harm saying it you are not sexist,racist or anything else

[Rhaide]

There is a point to be made about the representation of women in games and comics though. There are very few games out there where the main protagonist is a female character, unless there's a gender swap option available in a game like Skyrim; in which case it doesn't really matter. Think about it for a minute. Would it really be so terrible to have more games with a female lead? Acting like men are the only audience is the whole problem, because we aren't. Women are an increasing part of the gaming community and they deserve to have game made for them too. They aren't complaining that SOME games are targeted towards a male audience, they're complaining that MOST games are targeted towards a male audience. (percentage wise I'd probably say around 85% or more)

Comics are even worse these days what with the debacle at DC lately, and morons like Mark Millar, and Todd McFarlane running off at the mouth, and don't get me started on how Frank Miller's work has gone to crap when it comes to how he portrays women. The point is that they have a right to speak out about this and to make noise about it until someone listens and someone realizes that this community isn't an all boys club.

I don't disagree that women aren't represented. However, people are constantly mistaking the reason for that fact. It's not because producers think women are inferior, they just think they aren't as big of a group to market to. In games, where you want to feel what the character feels, it's harder to fit into the shoes of someone you don't relate to on a gender level. I know this is why it's upsetting to many women that there aren't more women protagonists, but to be fair, there aren't as many hardcore women gamers.

I know the figures are closer than ever and more and more women are getting into games, but nearly every study I've ever seen has either put the numbers somewhere around 80/20 at most or 50/50 if you count casual games, which isn't what I'm talking about here (not that they are bad).

If anyone has a RELIABLE source that says otherwise, I would really love to see it, but it's very hard to find anyone who has unbiased numbers because everyone, male AND female want to believe there are more female gamers nowadays.

[Spectral]

There is a point to be made about the representation of women in games and comics though. There are very few games out there where the main protagonist is a female character, unless there's a gender swap option available in a game like Skyrim; in which case it doesn't really matter. Think about it for a minute. Would it really be so terrible to have more games with a female lead? Acting like men are the only audience is the whole problem, because we aren't. Women are an increasing part of the gaming community and they deserve to have game made for them too. They aren't complaining that SOME games are targeted towards a male audience, they're complaining that MOST games are targeted towards a male audience. (percentage wise I'd probably say around 85% or more)

If there's a female audience that would love to dive into a female lead character, I see a market niche that some enterprising woman can make a boatload of money off of.

[DEATHETERNAL]

Women are an increasing part of the gaming community and they deserve to have game made for them too.

I just wanted to jump in and say that no one or group "deserves" any recreational product be made with them as the target audience. If the market forces are there to justify it, it will likely get made, if not, then it probably won't. "Deserving" has nothing to do with it or do paraplegics “deserve” to have games made with paraplegics as the protagonist despite the market forces not being there to justify it?

[stuck4cash]

The fact that most women and children need protecting during a crisis is an age-old adage. It wasn't made up a few decades ago by a chauvinist. Of course there are strong females and inferior males and there always has been. That doesn't change biology and the fact that the average female was not built to physically endure what the average male was. Get into all the intellectual debates you want about it, but when the shit hits the fan, men are expected to protect the women and children for a reason.

Actually, I think the reason men are expected to is because we're expendable. 1 male can fertilise many females and children still have their prime years ahead of them.

[Underverse]

Actually, I think the reason men are expected to is because we're expendable. 1 male can fertilise many females and children still have their prime years ahead of them.

Expendable in the sense that it is more bad for a female to die than a male to die. Not in the sense that it's ok for males to die.

[Deleted]

Women are an increasing part of the gaming community and they deserve to have game made for them too

If there's a market there will be a game. It has nothing to do with deserving something.

What people enjoy about video games is completely subjective, the story is irrelevant for some people so having a strong male or female lead could be meaningless. I enjoyed Mirrors Edge for the gameplay, didn't care who the main character was.

Video games are an artform, developers should be free to do whatever they want and shouldn't feel pressured to act like they need to perform some sort of social activism.

Women are a minority in the video game world, a minority of women/some men also see this as a problem.

But unfortunately (I use the term cautiously) the reason videos games exist is because of a market for entertainment, not to satisfy a minority of people feel they deserve something.

I think OP feels irritated at attempts to socially engineer acceptable opinion norms in modern media. Personally I've found listening to the radio on GTA V quite cathartic in that it shits on that kind of thing.

Actually, I think the reason men are expected to is because we're expendable. 1 male can fertilise many females and children still have their prime years ahead of them.

Yeah, its the whole disposable man thing. But you can always look at it the other way and see it as women are only important for having children, its not a great way to look at thing.